cannon characters and homosexual/bisexuality

[Sargon]

Do you think any major characters are gay or bisexual? Why/why not?   And even if not, which do you consider plausibly interpretable as such.   how about shapeshifters.  How does sexual preference effect them?
   Due to some of the preferences of players I tend to choose to interpret some characters that way.  Does any one else ever do that, either because they believe it accurate, or because they just like it on a particular character or 2?

My own take on characters is as follows...

lewella is vague enough that she's interpretable easily enough, especially corwin's whole bit about her being "different" than the others in book 2, thogh I doubt it' intentional.

flora, cannoncially, IMO is the sort of gal who "tried it in college", and who would almost certainly seduce another woman if it furthered her goals.  

deirdre is interpretble as a butch lesbian figure, but honestly I don't think that was the intention, notr do I sue such normally.     I

Fiona: she's the only cannon character who may genuinely have been written as a lesbian.  The concept of being "with a man" seems repugnant to her. In multipelw ays she shows herself to be perhaps the most duiplicitous and manipualtive fo any of oberons' offspring, yet he is unwilling to  use her charms to gain power over men.   That is evidenced not only by hr choice to enter  triumvirate, instead of seducing a man to sue as a puppet, but even more strongly in her reaction to Julian.  She ws so repulsed by him that she was unwilling to even strign him along.    Corwin supports it, too to an extent where, at the end of the series he speaks of commign to udnerstand and ccept her, although that is somewhat more likely to refer to her actions than her sexual preference.   The fact that *NO* mention si ever made of her havign had a male lover is also evidence.  Zelazny makes sure that nearly every character who is even half so significant as fiona has or had a lover ( benedict's hellmaiden, corwin's many lovers, randm and vialle, brand and jasara, merlin and hsi romantic trainwrecks, luke and his women, dar and corwin, oberon and his merry wives of windsor, dworkin and his havign a son, etc.)   That's my take, anyhow.


as for the princes...

corwin is a manslut
bleys is implied as beign even mroe fo a player than corwin
benedict had a seriosu irlfriend
random has a wife and what is likley  the happeist marriage in amber
eric probably was beddign flora
brand had a wife
julian clearly has a thing for fiona      
gerard is unstated, which makes him a posibility
caien is lso unstated, leavign his status also fuzzy.

I dont' think either caine nor gerard were really intended as being gay, but the lack of mention leaves the possability, and there's soemthing about bleys that makes it possible to interpret him as bisexual, perhaps.

Chaos side ( and some nto so chaos side secodn series types)

merlin clearly enjoys hsi women
as does Rinaldo/luke
mandor... he just feels like a cultured sophisticated gay man. sur ther'es an association with fiona that can be interpreted as maybe romantic, but given the evidence on both of them... I don't buy it.

dara has her thign about corwin, and if you buy the 2 dara theory, then the other dara has sons.

julia dated merlin then jurt
jasara is brand's widow
the ty'aigi was with merlin hen  by choice apparently with luke.
gilva has an interest in merlin

as for shapeshifters and prefrence, they seem to not have radically different views on it.

anyhow that's all i can think of offhand.  it's not the usual thing to analyze, but it's one I tend to becuse of my usual player demographic.    
  *Puts on what's left of his asbestos suit after his last thread*  ;>

[RPGPundit]

The only char I think may have been out and out gay is Despil, if a chaos lord shapeshifter can even be "gay".

I also think Julian may be a deeply repressed bisexual.

As for Fiona, I don't think she's gay so much as that she seems to have suffered some kind of extremely traumatic event when she was young that has basically closed her off all possibility of having a sexual relationship (or romantic relationship, for that matter), with just about anyone.

Now Flora will certainly fuck anything that moves, but I don't think that's so much "bisexual" in any conscious sense as "total  nymphomaniac".

RPGPundit

[Nihilistic Mind]

Now Flora will certainly fuck anything that moves, but I don't think that's so much "bisexual" in any conscious sense as "total  nymphomaniac".

She's not a nympho... She just falls in Love a lot. And she puts out for Love. That doesn't make her a nympho, does it?

It's an interesting thread, Sargon. I'll admit that I didn't bother looking into that part of the Amberites psyche, but to put it grossly: will Amberites live long enough that they will all at one point experiment sexually? Not just with gender roles but other stuff as well? I mean, all of Shadow is their playground after all and at this time, I imagine they satisfy their kinks early on, find who they are and what gender it pleases them to be with, among many things they play with in Shadow. I mean, sexuality is not gonna be the only thing they experiment with, obviously... Aggression is another one.

Amberites are only really bound by their own preference, not morals established by anyone. If anyone would oppose homosexuality, it would probably be Oberon because he would want his children to continue establishing his legacy...

The only in-game instance I can think of something like that was the Merlin-Martin relationship in Otha's game, where Merlin would effectively use shapeshifting to their advantage. It was first series centric and obviously, Merlin did not have an array of females throwing themselves at him at every turn. In fact, the only woman who had any kind of influence on him was Dara, as far as I would have guessed.

[Fritzs]

Now Flora will certainly fuck anything that moves, but I don't think that's so much "bisexual" in any conscious sense as "total  nymphomaniac".

That's not bsexual, that's pansexual...

[RPGPundit]

She's not a nympho... She just falls in Love a lot. And she puts out for Love. That doesn't make her a nympho, does it?

No, see, I think that's wrong. I think Flora is psychologically incapable of loving anyone (except maybe her dear old dad). She's the flipside of the coin from Fiona. While fiona's childhood traumas shut her sexuality down completely; Flora's childhood issues left her with that kind of hole inside her soul that she fills with romance, glamour and sex, but can't actually see other human beings as something to be cherished. Other human beings are there to tell her how beautiful she is and to "love" HER. (because of course, she's extremely insecure, deep down, about her own beauty or lovability).

It's an interesting thread, Sargon. I'll admit that I didn't bother looking into that part of the Amberites psyche, but to put it grossly: will Amberites live long enough that they will all at one point experiment sexually? Not just with gender roles but other stuff as well? I mean, all of Shadow is their playground after all and at this time, I imagine they satisfy their kinks early on, find who they are and what gender it pleases them to be with, among many things they play with in Shadow. I mean, sexuality is not gonna be the only thing they experiment with, obviously... Aggression is another one.

Amberites are only really bound by their own preference, not morals established by anyone. If anyone would oppose homosexuality, it would probably be Oberon because he would want his children to continue establishing his legacy...

The only in-game instance I can think of something like that was the Merlin-Martin relationship in Otha's game, where Merlin would effectively use shapeshifting to their advantage. It was first series centric and obviously, Merlin did not have an array of females throwing themselves at him at every turn. In fact, the only woman who had any kind of influence on him was Dara, as far as I would have guessed.

Frankly, the question is a little dull, especially from the Amberite point of view, isn't it?
The better question from the Amberite point of view is how the Amberites' individual fuckups affect how they view sex and relationships, not what orientation they might be.

So with the Amberites, the psychology of their sex is far more interesting than the practices of it.
Now, with CHAOS on the other hand, that's a different story... what is "sex" like in the "courts" of a bunch of shapeshifters from the most alien place imaginable (but who nevertheless choose to express gender and humanlike qualities)?

RPGPundit

[Nihilistic Mind]

Flora's childhood issues left her with that kind of hole inside her soul that she fills with romance, glamour and sex, but can't actually see other human beings as something to be cherished.

You nailed it. That's what she likes to imagine is Love.

Frankly, the question is a little dull, especially from the Amberite point of view, isn't it?
The better question from the Amberite point of view is how the Amberites' individual fuckups affect how they view sex and relationships, not what orientation they might be.

So with the Amberites, the psychology of their sex is far more interesting than the practices of it.
Now, with CHAOS on the other hand, that's a different story... what is "sex" like in the "courts" of a bunch of shapeshifters from the most alien place imaginable (but who nevertheless choose to express gender and humanlike qualities)?

RPGPundit

Agreed.

To me, a lot of times this does not come up in the game side of things.
But I'd be curious to see what people use to convey these things in their own game.

[Trevelyan]

Do you think any major characters are gay or bisexual? Why/why not?

Honestly, I don't think sexual preference was really something that Zelazny considered important to the story that he was telling. Corwin and Merlin will both happily sleep with any woman who says two words to them, but they do so in what is usually such a superficial, James Bondesque manner that it's hard to see it as anything other than indicative of their alpha male status. Pundit is right that personaly relationships take priority over sexual preference.

And even if not, which do you consider plausibly interpretable as such.

That's a much more reasonable question, but I disagree with a lot of your conclusions:

Lewella is vague enough that she's interpretable easily enough, especially corwin's whole bit about her being "different" than the others in book 2, thogh I doubt it' intentional.

I think Corwin's comment about Llewella being different stems more from the fact she has green hair and lives underwater than being a vague hint that she's attracted to other women.  

Flora, cannoncially, IMO is the sort of gal who "tried it in college", and who would almost certainly seduce another woman if it furthered her goals.

"Tried it in college", quite possibly, but I'm not sure that she would necessarily seduce other women to further her goals or with any degree of regularity. From what we see of Flora in the Merlin series she almost views other women as the competition. She tries to prove herself the alpha female according to her own terms - remember that Amberites are exceedingly archetypal and Flora is the moviestar of the family. She's the actress, the seductress and, let's be honest, the slut, but those are all very strongly heterosexual roles. Other women aren't objects of desire for Flora, they are the enemy.

Deirdre is interpretble as a butch lesbian figure, but honestly I don't think that was the intention, notr do I sue such normally.

Deirdre owes her entire reputation in ADRPG for being martial to the fact that she wades into the melee in the final battle in Courts of Chaos. It's a single throw away line which ought to be mitigated by the endless examples of her being far more feminine (when Corwin and Random first meet her, when she giggles like a girl with Moire, when she wears long flowing dresses in the library, etc) but which ADRPG barely acknowledges. Depending on how you read it, Deirdre may have had some affection for Corwin, but otherwise she gives no indication either way.

Fiona: she's the only cannon character who may genuinely have been written as a lesbian.

Bollocks. You've clearly been reading a very different set of books from the one's I've read. Fiona flirts like an expert with Mandor, she has Julian wrapped around her little finger, and quite happily manages to manipulate Corwin also. The key thing with Fiona is that she clearly considers most people, men or women, beneath her. The significant factor when she meets Mandor is that he is very much her equal in all things and hence an obvious attraction.

she is unwilling to  use her charms to gain power over men.   That is evidenced not only by hr choice to enter  triumvirate, instead of seducing a man to sue as a puppet, but even more strongly in her reaction to Julian.  She ws so repulsed by him that she was unwilling to even strign him along.

Because any woman with a desire to be taken seriously on her own merits and treated as an equal by men rather than to sleep with them to get what she wants is clearly a lesbian? Ok :confused: And who wouldn't be replused by Julian - he's the least popular member of a not very likeable family.

Corwin supports it, too to an extent where, at the end of the series he speaks of commign to udnerstand and ccept her, although that is somewhat more likely to refer to her actions than her sexual preference.

I think it's safe to say that none of Corwin's closing reviews of his siblings are intended to be a covert reference to their sexual preference. :rolleyes:

The fact that *NO* mention si ever made of her havign had a male lover is also evidence.  Zelazny makes sure that nearly every character who is even half so significant as fiona has or had a lover ( benedict's hellmaiden, corwin's many lovers, randm and vialle, brand and jasara, merlin and hsi romantic trainwrecks, luke and his women, dar and corwin, oberon and his merry wives of windsor, dworkin and his havign a son, etc.)   That's my take, anyhow.

Ok, so Bleys, Eric (bar Corwin's speculations vis-a-vi Moire), Gerard, Julian, Llewella, Deirdre (bar her purely sisterly affection for Corwin), Fiona, Mandor (if Fiona doesn't count) and Despil are all gay?

corwin is a manslut

Corwin is an archetypal male charcter from the period in which Zelazny was writing.

bleys is implied as beign even mroe fo a player than corwin

Really? Who or what implies that? Bleys is one of the most nebulous princes in the books.

eric probably was beddign flora

Again, WTF?!?!?!

caien is lso unstated, leavign his status also fuzzy.

Except Caine spends his free time wenching and had a realtionship with Baron Bayle's daughter as revealed in the Merlin series.

mandor... he just feels like a cultured sophisticated gay man.

Ah, now we see the flipside of the "Fiona as an independant woman must be gay" in the "Mandor, as a man who's first reaction is to reach for a compliment rather than a sword, must be gay". Mandor, like Fiona, is a different kind of creature from most other significant characters. He is a thinker, a plotter and a schemer. His weapon of choice is a disarming compliment, a supportive gesture, a quite word of well meaning advice and, on rare occasions, a knife in the dark. Why any degree of culture and sophistication must be taken to imply that he is gay is beyond me.

But given the ease with which Mandor flirts with Jasra, with Dara and especially with Fiona, I don't see him as being gay.

[Croaker]

Now, with CHAOS on the other hand, that's a different story... what is "sex" like in the "courts" of a bunch of shapeshifters from the most alien place imaginable (but who nevertheless choose to express gender and humanlike qualities)?

I read something once about chaos character using their abilities to perform hentai-esque things, with multiple sexes and all.
While exagerated IMO, it seems logical to me that at least some would do it. At the very least, using shapeshift to enhance sexual performance should be pretty common

[SunBoy]

I would say that the relations Zelazny DOES mention are actually the ones that have some kind of weight on the overall story. I mean, come on, Merlin cannot shag a lady he meets in a pub without her being a demon... Only three phrases in ten books are spent talking about affairs that haven't got an impact in the story, and even those are in a sort of nostalgic reminiscence (those being Luke talking about some girl, Corwin remembering french ladies while inscribing his pattern and Merlin not sure about with whom was he having dinner on a certain evening).
And Fiona not wanting to use Julian as a puppet only shows, IMO, that she would much rather have Corwin as one, at least in that scene. And I do find that whole line of reasoning a little too male-chauvinistic.

[Lawbag]

When I read the books, I always thought of the characters as being asexual, perhaps representing individual themes and ideals, rather than a male or female character.

With the amount of scheming going on, Im sure even the most masculine male character would turn his other cheek to achieve his aims. And that goes for the female character as well.

[Sargon]

In all probability, i doubt that Zelazny really sat down and decided to make any of the elders into homosexual characters.  i was just curious if any one felt otherwise for some reason.

As for interpretability, I'm still interested despite the firey reception.  Like I said, several of the players in my regular group are, themselves LBGT, and they enjoy having a bit more of that in the game than is standard.  That's why I was curious and still am. *shrug*.

Given the somewhat negative tone of some replies, i figured that I'd make that clearer.

[Gavken]

Sargon - I think its up to you how you want to define the Elders in your games. It's quite possible that one of the Elders is a closet lesbian / gay / bi and that they are quite keen to have it covered up for instance. It is equally possible that some of the "missing" familly could return and be gay / lesbian. We don't know why Benedicts Older brothers, Delwin or Sand left exactly and it could be for these reasons.

It's your campaign and you can interpret things as you wish.

Gavin

[Croaker]

PLayed bleys as a closeted gay, deniying it by being a womanizer :lol:

[Ivanhoe]

A few days ago, I read in this forum the possibility that Fiona would be gay. I think that suits her perfectly. At the same time, I was introducing a new PC in the campaign, child of Fiona and a Chaosian lord. The background was not completely written then. So now, he is the son of Fiona and a Chaosian lady who happen to be a skillful metamorph. "Well you see when a metamorph mates... " "I don't want to know the details !" Long story short, he now has a Chaos lady as a father.

Speaking of Princes' alternative lifestyles, I think most if not all of them tried homosexuality at least once in their multi-centuries past. Apparently they are more inclined toward heterosexuality. There could have been a lot of parental pressure as well. After all, given their very low fertility, if Oberon wanted a big family, he probably discouraged homosexuality. Maybe that after his death, some will walk out of the closet ?

In my campaign, I have Sand (it is a woman, right ? I see some people saying Sand is a man) and Delwin being exiled for wanting to marry together. Corwin made it clear that Oberon took a strong stance against incest.

[Syzygy]

A few days ago, I read in this forum the possibility that Fiona would be gay. I think that suits her perfectly. At the same time, I was introducing a new PC in the campaign, child of Fiona and a Chaosian lord. The background was not completely written then. So now, he is the son of Fiona and a Chaosian lady who happen to be a skillful metamorph. "Well you see when a metamorph mates... " "I don't want to know the details !" Long story short, he now has a Chaos lady as a father.

I had an idea like that, too.  A Chaosian woman shapeshifts, seduces an Amberite Princess, and sires a child upon her (the PC).

The idea was that the PC would, against parental admonition, seek out his Chaosian father and eventually learn the truth, that he was part of the Chaosian breeding experiment, and that he has two mothers (or, if you like, that his father is a woman).

In Chaos, this happens occasionally, but in Amber it would have been quite a scandal.  You can imagine how some of the campaign's more obnoxious NPCs might have mocked and teased a PC with such a background.

As for sex and Chaosian shapeshifting...really, I don't think there's an intelligent human being alive who's never wondered what things were like for the opposite sex.  In Chaos of course, they get to experience that first hand.  I think it unlikely that any shapeshifter hasn't engaged in such experimentation.

Why not?  They're going to live for centuries, if not millenia.  And through the Logrus they have access to Shadow.  I can't see the courts as having any real kind of homosexuality taboo myself.  Or all the other kinds of taboos: lesbian, bi, transgendered...whatever else has its own label or classification.

The point is, all that stuff gets turned on its head and thrown right out the window in a community of long-lived, dimension-traveling shapeshifters.