Can Oberon Die?

[RPGPundit]

And if he can, should he?

In your campaigns, I mean.

Oberon is a very significant figure in the "Mythological" element of the Amberite pantheon; he's Zeus.
He's also the patriarch.

In the novels, as a figure that was missing and possibly dead, he represented that image that one has of a father that you can't possibly live up to; the giant.
And also, the one that haunts you from beyond the grave, as he haunted Corwin (in fact, Zelazny intentionally put in a lot of parallels between Corwin and Oberon and Hamlet/Hamlet's Father; he addresses many of the same father/son relationship issues in the first five books that Shakespeare did).

So does it make an Amber campaign "smaller" if Oberon is dead and gone? Or how is the mythological/symbolic/metaphorical elements of what Oberon represents played out in a "post-Oberon" Amber setting?

RPGPundit

[Sargon]

It changes things, I'll give you that.  I'm more of a second series kind of guy, so a lot of the games I run typically do have Oberon dead ( or at least presumed dead).   Without Oberon, Amber it's self is much less stable, and often could be considered "diminished", not only in power/influance., but also in more subtle ways.
    Oberon was a bastard, but he was also strong enough to rule amber.  To use an analogy, cannonical Amber is run in almost liek  corporation.  All the elder amberites a members of the board of directors, and Random as ceo.   He is king, not because no one can challange him, but because the majority are willing to permit him to be.  it makes amber a very different place.

  TO more directly address you, however, I think that  a lot of the family dynamics aspects remain more or less in place, just passed down a generation.  Alternatively, oberon being gone can cause a different individual to at least partially fill that role, often dworkin.

That all assumes a fairly cannonical and relatively standard sort of game where the PCs are obneron's grand children and random is king.   If , for example,  corwin is king, he has the potential to  be a much more  oberon like figure.  He outlived his rival Eric, had the blessing of both his father and the Rebman queen (outside recognition never hurts), drew a pattern, and even managed to get the best of Benedict in a fight once.   I don't usually interpret him as up to he task, but you can do it w/o throwing out the bulk of the cannon.

That's jsut my  $0.02, though.

[boulet]

Oberon is a very significant figure in the "Mythological" element of the Amberite pantheon; he's Zeus.
He's also the patriarch.

I completely agree with the Zeus identification : he's the original wielder of lightning bolts (through the use of the jewel of judgement), he's a shape changer, Kolvir & Amber have a similar symbolism to Olympus, he's driven by lust and is polyamorous, the coming of his reign signified the end of an era (Chaos would be the Titans and the court of Kronos then)... The big glitch between Oberon and Zeus is the absence of Hera : a strong shrew sticking her nose in the king's business, trying to undermine the future of all divine bastards. Without the conjugal tension (Oberon would rather get rid of a nosy wife rather than abide her rulings) Oberon has no restraint in his meddling with mortals. I could picture a version of Amberverse where one of his wife get the upper hand. It could be a nice variant of succession war type of campaigns.

So does it make an Amber campaign "smaller" if Oberon is dead and gone? Or how is the mythological/symbolic/metaphorical elements of what Oberon represents played out in a "post-Oberon" Amber setting?

I don't know if it's smaller. Even dead Oberon isn't really gone : Amber is here to stay and face the threat of Chaos, the kids are eager to take the lead and perpetuate the lineage... How many more tricks of destiny has Oberon set in advance for his kids? What plots may come to fruition long after his tomb is covered with vines ?
When I ponder about Oberon in the context of a new campaign I often privilege his death because if he's alive he's probably going to be the axis around which the story revolves... It's to big a shadow for PCs to get some spotlight. Dead Oberon isn't fitting the Zeus concept anymore though. Zeus is eternal and always prevail. Oberon OTH sacrificed his life to perpetuate his order and Osiris could be a better match for this symbolism.

[jibbajibba]

Surely more Odin than Zeus?

[gabriel_ss4u]

Sure Oberon can die...
(is this a comic or Shakespearean play though?)
Superman always comes back, and so it seems does that pesky hard-to-kill Amberite.
All of 'em in fact.
Except Brand... I'm sure he's dead!

"No one could have survived THAT!"

[Xenon]

The question of Oberon's death leaves a lot to debate. all we know for sure, is that he corrected the problem with the pattern, and sent a message. In that Dworkin is the pattern and vice versa, I must wonder if Oberon is now a part of the pattern, or a part of dworkin.

the best answer is that he is not 'dead' in the classical sense, but has moved on to a higher state of existence. out of the way of his children, beyond the shadows they travel. perhaps the act of repair left him unable to return, as his transit from a repaired pattern would likely have been before shadow was entirely reworked- in fact before Corwin could draw his pattern.

Perhaps Oberon is patiently waiting for Corwin beyond his new pattern. Or perhaps he has traveled to some primal realm older than pattern, far from chaos.

let us not forget, that Odin rides a horse which is symbolic of a coffin. his role is one of standing upon the boundary between life and death, and seeing all things.

of course, the more annoying answer may be that Oberon is the new 'sentient' pattern now (or even the castle). makes me wonder who the 'sentient' logrus is this week.

[boulet]

makes me wonder who the 'sentient' logrus is this week.

Please, not Jurt... not Jurt

[Croaker]

Frakir?

[Rel Fexive]

I've always been a fan of Oberon being the only 'Pattern Ghost' there is (in that there aren't any others) as a result of dying remaking the Pattern.  He's not actually the Pattern (that's Dworkin... kinda) but he comes out to influence, divert and obstruct whenever he deems it appropriate.  The Logrus has it's own too - the first Emperor of Chaos, who tamed it.

But I would actually be tempted to limit their influence to the place where the design in question is - or even limit them to only affecting anyone currently walking/traversing them.

[RPGPundit]

I've always been a fan of Oberon being the only 'Pattern Ghost' there is (in that there aren't any others) as a result of dying remaking the Pattern.  He's not actually the Pattern (that's Dworkin... kinda) but he comes out to influence, divert and obstruct whenever he deems it appropriate.  The Logrus has it's own too - the first Emperor of Chaos, who tamed it.

Would that be Swayvil? Or someone else?

RPGPundit

[gabriel_ss4u]

Ooooo, good ideas.
Xenon, you put forth some real gems.
Rel Fexive also, I like the idea of Oberon being the only Pattern Ghost, or atleast an idea that any Pattern individual that dies... (yes permanently dead) can become a Pattern Ghost.

Eventually, in most any campaign, the mentor/head of the family persona has to die or go away so as to allow the PCs the room to grow into that spot or arena.
Though I always love to start any campaign with Oberon alive, let his future death be the stuff of gaming legends!

(IMC, the 1st Chaos lord crowned King Of Chaos was King Thelbane.)

[Rel Fexive]

Would that be Swayvil? Or someone else?

RPGPundit

I guess that would depend on if Swayvil was the one and only original Emperor I suppose  Personally I would say no, it would be someone else much, much more ancient....

(IMC, the 1st Chaos lord crowned King Of Chaos was King Thelbane.)

....Someone like that, for example

[moritheil]

With strange eons, yes.

I think it's most significant that he does not die due to another being offering him violence; rather he chooses to die.  It takes his acceptance that what he wants will lead him to his death in order for him to die.  In Japanese there is this expression about competition, "To kill a man [without defeating him fairly] is to make him divine."  You'll never really know how you measure up after that.

By dying while undefeated and shortly after demonstrating that he could still whip the best of his progeny, Oberon reinforced his own mythical status.  All subsequent heroes, no matter how great, would fall short when measured against Oberon.

Obviously he didn't die just to retire at the top of his game, but Zelazny may have intended this.

[SunBoy]

You're so right. The bastard...