I don't consider them cannon ( not even to the extent that I consider the complete amber sorucebook cannon), and I don't own them, but I did nab them from he library to read and they weren't awful.
In any case, I'm curious if the books gave any one any ideas or inspiration. honestly, I didn't find them that useful. i easily was able to build a whole campaign based on some of he Manna from heaven short stories, but I didn't get as much from the Betancourt books as I do from most non amber fiction.
has any on else had a different experince? One where they perhaps either really enjoyed the books ( as opposed to having a pretty neutral feeling the whole way ) or found them inspirational. I'm going to assume that no one here considers them cannon, obviously.
*slips his asbestos suit on and awaits the replies*
betancourts' novels are an abomination.
RPGPundit
betancourts' novels are an abomination.
RPGPundit
To be honest, I found the Betancourt novels (read the first three) uninspired and uninspiring.
I don't think I took any material from it whatsoever. I've had campaign more inspiring and closer to canon set in the early days of Amber. They may have made better fiction than what we received.
The only remotely original thing I can recall was the head on a wooden spike that melds together, then the head breaking and sap coming out. It was weird and made me laugh a little bit, because that's the kind of weird Shadow stuff I sometimes come up with on a whim.
I especially disliked the fact that the books implied the Unicorn is one of many and just a shapeshifter. It totally killed the fact that the ONE unicorn is supposed to be special, and a mythical creature.
Let's see... What else... Meh.
Sorry, that's just all I can squeeze out of the pointless false plot points and twists of the prequel novels.
A lot of things could have been done with an Amber Prequel (if you largely ignore Zelazny's wishes, obviously). This was not what it should have been. It would have been passable at best if it had been Amber fan fiction.
My opinion only. Don't anyone be offended by it.
Some of the attempts to link the prequels to the main series (e.g. succubus --> Jasra) were interesting. At the end of the day, though, it was no different overall to all the RPG campaigns Out There - some good ideas, some bad, and a few whacked out concepts that make no sense and did not really fit.
Nihilistic : I actually normally run with multiple unicorns. there's a set # (13), and I'm well aware that it's a piece of non cannon that I include in many of my games, so that didn't much bother me. It's godo to knwo you had a similar experience, finding the books to have less useful material than a random golden circle campaign website.
and rex .. care to share a few other pearls you foudn whiel wading through the manure pile? :>
p.s. pundit, you double psoted ( thoughthat may hve been itnentional. the books are pretty bad, so myeb callign them an abomination twice si called for :P )
It wasn't intentional, but I think I'll leave it. The key thing to understand is that these novels are not just like someone doing fanfiction or running a game, they're far worse than that.
Aside from the fact that most people here could probably write a better novel than mr. betancourt; there is the absolutely essential truth that ROGER ZELAZNY DID NOT WANT ANYONE OTHER THAN HIM WRITING COMMERCIAL AMBER STORIES.
These novels were written in express defiance of his wish. Zelazny wanted Amber as a novel series to die with him; probably to precisely avoid the kind of FR-Startrek-license-series C-grade novelist bullshit crap writing that the likes of betancourt would do, turning Amber from a masterpiece of fantasy fiction into a "serial novel series" meant to be consumed by pathetic nerd fanboys too stupid to realize that in their endless fetish for "new stuff" they have cheapened and degraded the brilliance of Amber as a series and ended up dragging Zelazny's memory through the gutter.
RPGPundit
Personally, I think it's a blessing in disguise that the books are low quality. If they had managed to convince a more talented author to somehow write them, the books might have been good and creative enough that people would have argued about whether or not they were cannon. In the case of betancourt's work, there's really no disagreement ( that they books are garbage that don't deserve to exist) except from a very small and generally unsavory minority.
Quote from: Sargon;222322Personally, I think it's a blessing in disguise that the books are low quality. If they had managed to convince a more talented author to somehow write them, the books might have been good and creative enough that people would have argued about whether or not they were cannon. In the case of betancourt's work, there's really no disagreement ( that they books are garbage that don't deserve to exist) except from a very small and generally unsavory minority.
IIRC several far better authors openly said that they didn't want to be involved given Roger's views on the idea before his death.
Personally I'd be less bothered if they had been any good. AT least if the books had been well written it might have been enough to justify Roger's wishes, but ignoring him and still producing sub par pap is just infuriating. I've read several fan fic preces on the internet that were an order of magnitude better than Bettancourt's efforts. I find it hard to believe, on the basis of the first two of his Amber novels, that anyone would pay him enough for him to make a living as a professional author.
I have a very mixed mind about the whole thing.
1. While I respect Roger's wishes somewhat, it is frustrating from a reader's perspective to not allow anyone to continue the tale. Especially when it ends abruptly and wasn't really complete, which is what happened with the short stories. Roger didn't want it, but I did. I didnt want Amber to die.
2. However, once you determine to have new Amber books written, the best authors should be chosen to carry the torch. While Betancourt has always seemed sincere and tried hard, his literary skills don't carry the weight of a Steven Brust or Neil Gaiman. (My understanding is that both turned it down because of Roger's wishes.)
3. However, once you select an author (whoever he may be) then he should be allowed to write all of the books, not stop after 4 books in a 5 book series. Once you commit to the project, why not support it as much as you can? heck, the Amber community was/is split about whether they should support the books, so how does that generate any excitement among people who don't even know what Amber is?
Bottom line to me is that the folks running the estate don't appear to have a marketing plan worked out at all for Amber. I can't find many of Roger's books at my local Barnes & Noble bookstore, and that isn't good for attracting new readers. The Amber comic books were done for books 1-2 of the series but apparently didn't sell enough to warrent doing books 3-10. The ADRP has bounced around for 15 years without any new books being produced, and that isn't good for attracting new players. You can't find anything new that is Amber -- no maps, no sourcebooks, no "history of middle-earth" type books that go behind-the-scenes of the writing of the stories, no movies (heck, hardly any rumors any more), or anything else to get me excited about Amber.
Essentially, the Amber franchise is staying alive by "word of mouth" and I don't believe that there are many of us out there shouting loud enough to be heard by the majority of the reading and/or gaming public.
Oh, and just to pick a nit:
Cannon = a large gun
Canon = true to the source material
I would say the rampant failure of the Betancourt book speaks to the basic good sense of Amber fans.
Let's hope it inoculates us from any further attempts.
Sourcebooks and such are another thing altogether, and that's the sort of thing that could be written without violating the spirit of Zelazny's wishes. Likewise, obviously, a new edition of the RPG.
RPGPundit
IIRC, Neil Gaiman said he would have loved to write Amber stories, but didn't do so out of respect for Roger Zelazny.
Of course, he later wrote Stardust, which has some interesting Amber-esque elements. ;)
The books are worse than an abomination, for once Pundit goes not far enough. If they could have convinced a half decent author to write an Amber novel or if they had taken the Thieves' World approach and had a number of good authors write short stories set in that world then they would have been an abomination because Zelazny did not want them written. But I would secretly have bought them and hoarded their precious words, The Tale of Gerard and the Green Knight by Raymond E Feist, Caine and the Blackship by Neil Gaiman, Random King of Shadows by Scott Lynch these would have been a guilty pleasure I could not have resisted.
What we get is utter unmitigated crap. Benacourt is at best a hack author who can string together a tale at worst he is an unmittigated failure who simply copied the same format as Zelazny without even reading all the books it seemed at times. I admit to buying the first book, I was unaware of Zelazny's wishes at the time but even had I not been I would have been unable to resist and I was shocked. Not only did it seem that the author had no knowledge of the Amberverse but his whole plot strucuture "a man with no knowledge of his past is taken to a castle where he meets a number of colourful characters who turn out to be his siblings and all have super powers" was just copied from Nine Princes. Not as a homage but just as simple plagerism.
Benacourt is one of the few authors who makes me think 'bugger me I can write better than this how can this guy make a living'. Of course when I take up my quill and start to actually write and get stuck for 2 hours on how the protagonist should open the door in scene 1 I realise what it is that he lacks and I have (aside from a proper job), an ability to self critize.
I actually read something by him on a forum where he was defending some errors he made with continuity saying that even Zelazny was not consistent in his continuity at times and adapted stuff if the tale warrented. Yes Zelazny did this but it was HIS FUCKING BOOK, all Benacourt had to do was read ten slim paperbacks as perparation and it seemed that he couldn't even be arsed to do that.
Oh and lastly the 'choose your own adventure' style books. Seven no Trump and The Black Road War are much better books than Benacourt's Seven No Trump being the most Zelazny like
And he is an interview with the evil Benacourt so you can form your own opinion
http://www.sfsite.com/10b/jb138.htm
Sadly, I do agree.
Sadly, because if the books had been any good, it could have sparked interest in amber again.
Now, I haven't much hope :(
Amber Chronicles' only hope of ascending again in top seller list and hope of spreading awareness about them:
Amber: the movie
Amber Diceless, version 2.0
Amber DRPG reprints
Amber RPG, the clandestine free version: an amalgam of Amber roleplaying wisdom and ideas, the work of Amber enthusiast communities on the web.
Oh, and if anyone has information about whether or not Betancourt's novels had a positive impact on sales of the Great Book of Amber, I wouldn't mind finding out. I mean, when people saw a new book, were they then drawn to pick up and read the original author's work? I would hope so...
Amber Chronicles' only hope of ascending again in top seller list and hope of spreading awareness about them:
Amber: the movie
Amber Diceless, version 2.0
Amber DRPG reprints
Amber RPG, the clandestine free version: an amalgam of Amber roleplaying wisdom and ideas, the work of Amber enthusiast communities on the web.
Oh, and if anyone has information about whether or not Betancourt's novels had a positive impact on sales of the Great Book of Amber, I wouldn't mind finding out. I mean, when people saw a new book, were they then drawn to pick up and read the original author's work? I would hope so...
Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;223470Amber Chronicles' only hope of ascending again in top seller list and hope of spreading awareness about them:
Amber: the movie
Amber Diceless, version 2.0
Amber DRPG reprints
Amber RPG, the clandestine free version: an amalgam of Amber roleplaying wisdom and ideas, the work of Amber enthusiast communities on the web.
Oh, and if anyone has information about whether or not Betancourt's novels had a positive impact on sales of the Great Book of Amber, I wouldn't mind finding out. I mean, when people saw a new book, were they then drawn to pick up and read the original author's work? I would hope so...
Didn't the Scifi channel pick up the rights for a TV show and I remember reading in the late 90s that WB had picked up the film rights and that someone was writing a script. All very dubious...
I think a TV show works better. A 3 part mini series of Nine Princes with the same quality as that Merlin one Sam Neil was in. It's odd that there has been little take up because Amber has all the elements of a good show, its got low cost special effects, great character parts, a nice foreshadowing plot that takes the reader with no experience and slowly introduces the world to them thus no need for previous interest, its got fighting, mystery, the kind of who is doing what to who and why questions that you get in shows like Lost. In fact its very much on the template of a show for now.
I can see that in the past the 'fantasy' elements might have put of producers but surely the success of LotR, Narnia, Golden Compass et al has put paid to that myth (although still no "fantasy" show has made it on TV...).
I always worry that my favorite books will get made into crap films (anyone ever seen Tarnsman of Gor!!!! oh my god) and that will finish them for ever so in may ways I am glad the SciFi channel never pursued it. Then there is the risk that a reasonably good film gets made that just isn't like the book (Constantine, I hate to admit is not a bad film, and it even keeps to the spirit of the comics but ... shotguns? Keanu? what were they thinking) and it spawns a load of stuff that isn't like it should have been.
I know, I've been hoping for SciFi to take advantage of the rights... I'm not in the business so I don't know how long this stuff should take, but it's been years. There's also no recent buzz about it either.