Bad Stuff

[smoon1971]

How much 'Bad Stuff' have you let your players get away with?  What do you consider an excessive amount?

After 7 years, I've finally convinced my gaming group to let me run an Amber game.  Of the 5 players, only one has read the books, though another has started.  The auction went well, and a first shot at characters has been made.

Two of the players are starting with, what I consider, a large amount of 'Bad Stuff'.  One is at 15, the other is at 20.

I'm considering having one being actively hunted by the Amber Royal guard, & the other under attack by some other multi-shadow organization.

[noman]

Hi Smoon.

How much 'Bad Stuff' have you let your players get away with?

As much as they want.  My policy is to hand a shovel to anyone who's that enthusiastic about digging his own grave.

What do you consider an excessive amount?

I will sometimes draw the line if a character's stuff exceeds half of his or her total points.  Even then, I'll generally let things go unless the stuff gets really obnoxious and gameplay suffers.  A lot of people seem to cap stuff at five or ten points.  But I don't like putting limits on my players if I can help it.

I have 3 basic rules about bad stuff...

A) How much is a lot is relative, not absolute.  It's based on the average of stuff in the player group.  If I've got four players with around ten points of bad stuff each, and one guy with fifteen points of bad stuff, then fifteen isn't so bad.  On the other hand, if I've got four players with five points of good stuff each, and one guy with one point of bad stuff, that guy's in for a rough night.

B) I will give a clear warning to any player who takes a lot of bad stuff.  I will make it very clear just how bad it's going to get before the game gets started.  This is especially true of new players.

C) I will not use bad stuff to kill a character.  I will give him or her a way out, a solution, an escape, etc.  However, outside of this I am absolutely brutal with bad stuff characters.  The more bad stuff there is, the nastier it's going to get (and it gets very nasty).  I've rarely had heavy bad stuff characters in my campaign for long.  They pay the debt off ASAP.

Good luck with your campaign.  I hope you and your players have fun!

[Doughdee222]

I'm pretty much with Noman on this.
On the one hand I wouldn't want to put a limit on Stuff, although I'm very tempted to cap it at 10. But if the players really want to...

Make it plain to the players that even at 10 they will be feeling it every game session. 20 or more will be constant pain and aggravation. 30+ will be gimping the character severely.

And hit them left and right. Clues that would take a minute or two to find will now take 20 minutes or more to discover. NPCs will find the will to resist interrogation methods or might suicide when cornered. Dead rats will be found in the soup bowl. A horse's shoe will break and require fixing to restore normal speed. His favorite shirt and boots get cut up bad during a fight. When staying at an inn the neighbors will spend the night having a loud argument. Women/men will always find an excuse not to sleep with the character. A shadow storm blocks trump contact or causes much "static." Planned on having 7 NPCs attack the character? Now it's 10 and they aren't as drunk as they seemed. Conjuration takes twice as long as normal. Bow strings break. Etc.

Of course the same goes for the other side of the scale too. Lots of Good Stuff and the character leads a charmed life. Clues are spotted easily. NPCs are eager to spill their guts. The inn just got a supply of fresh fish for dinner. Sure you can sleep in the farmer's barn, and his cute daughter will bring some extra blankets. A local priest always has a healing spell ready. Etc.

But then I expect excessive Good Stuff is rarely a problem.

[Evermasterx]

No limit for me.
Bad stuff is a great tool for the GM to create obstacles and keep the players on their toes.
And the best thing is that is the player who legitimated you to do that!

[Artifacts of Amber]

Since My bad stuff works completely differently then the games it might alter my view on things.

I usually try to keep levels within reason about 5 points is a lot in my game. Since I allow people to use partial powers they can get things in smaller chunks and not need to go deeply into Bad stuff. I also let them carry a little debt without it being a bad stuff, again usually no more than 5 points.

I give out points every session and though they take a while to add up to buy powers it allows a more natural progression for me.

My bad stuff manifest in selling away part of your background so bad stuff may mean having been deceived about who your parent is or having someone hunting you in a vendetta etc. I don't care for the books execution of it. I like having some Good or Bad stuff banked to be spent on especially harsh events that hurt one character, above and beyond the normal Amber screwedge.

Just my thoughts

[Croaker]

Yeah, no real limit here, although it can get ugly quickly, as the more bad stuff you have, the deadlier combat gets.

Also, IMS, bad stuff can be "aspected".

For exemple, I remember one player whose bad stuff made him ridiculous at the worst possible moment.
Like, he was in a great bal at amber, and, while bowing to someone important (can't remember who), his pants ripped very loudly and visibly. Whenever he wanted to look awesome and grim and serious, his bad stuff went in the way, so that most of amber thought of him as a joke. The player hated his bad stuff, much more so than if it had simply meant people hated him and he had trouble finding accomodations.

[Panjumanju]

Two of the players are starting with, what I consider, a large amount of 'Bad Stuff'.  One is at 15, the other is at 20.

I've never had a game where after the auction *someone* wasn't starting with about 20 bad stuff. Your numbers all sound very normal to me.

I'm considering having one being actively hunted by the Amber Royal guard, & the other under attack by some other multi-shadow organization.

Sounds like you already know what you're doing. Those are great ideas.

//Panjumanju

[noman]

Sounds like you already know what you're doing. Those are great ideas.

This.

I think Smoon has things well in hand

[Doughdee222]

I ran a Robot Warriors (Hero system) campaign where one of the players took several Hatreds for his character. He had half of the world hating his guy. There were several game sessions where we just dealt with all the assassins and gangsters who were coming after him. He racked up the Purple Hearts like no one else, spent more time in the hospital than on active duty.

Of course it depends on the Game Master, but I would still urge players to keep Bad Stuff low. Personally, I would rather have a character with 10 Warfare and 0 Stuff than one with 40 Warfare and -30 Stuff, or one with an extra power such as Trump Artistry.
 
Not to say that taking a small amount occasionally is bad. If, in your travels, you find a cool looking Double Damage sword that can predict the weather and plays 1000 songs and want to keep it permanently, go ahead and spend 3 points for it.
But taking 35 Bad Stuff just to add Shape Shifting to your character? I wouldn't recommend it or do it.

[RPGPundit]

When I started playing, I would be very worried and thus very stingy about handing out bad stuff; I would put strong limits, usually -10 or -15 or -25 at the most, in terms of how far back the PCs could go.

These days, I'm much more relaxed about it; I think that the key is instead to make things relative.  People can have as much Bad Stuff as they want, but bad stuff is Relative to what other people's stuff is at; so the guy who's furthest in the hole is the one who gets the worst shit happening to him.

RPGPundit

[RTrimmer]

I have no player or gm experience with games with lots of bad stuff but it sounds like there's a tendency for it to warp the game.

If you have 100 point PCs and PC Joe has 50 points of bad stuff, does he fail 50% of the time due to it?  33%? Does 50 points of bad stuff lead to more Joe-centric plots? Does Joe become a pariah because, even with that extra 50 points of Warfare (frex), if he's on your team you're screwed?

Wujcik says,
"Bad Stuff Characters. Each point can be programmed into the campaign as hatred or distrust from an elder Amberite, as another element in a background and/or childhood filled with pain and suffering, or as betrayal of the character's secrets to other characters."
50 points and you run out of elders, Amberite and Chaosite alike, and secrets  too.

[Arref]

I agree with Randy on this one.

Not that every rpg has to be "fair", but I think of Bad Stuff a bit as an exploit and a bit as a 'lightning rod' for adverse story reactions in a genre where the Amberites are 'top dogs' in a universe.

A little bit of adventure and universe working against you is good. Story conflict is important. Too much of it warps play and creates a repeating frustration level... "ya, we almost had this fixed, then X's bad stuff kicked in and we are worse off now than we were. Can we just kill X?"

Too many times, the combination of "wow, I get MORE power if I take Bad Stuff" and "I'd like the play session to be all about my character" can combine for un-fun results.

[daniel_ream]

Too many times, the combination of "wow, I get MORE power if I take Bad Stuff" and "I'd like the play session to be all about my character" can combine for un-fun results.

Back when I used to play oWoD, it was a running joke that taking the Dark Fate Flaw was a self-fulfilling prophecy - the rest of the PCs would simply murder you in the first session so as not to be in the blast radius when your Dark Fate manifested.

[RTrimmer]

Alert, proactive and ruthless: excellent!

Back when I used to play oWoD, it was a running joke that taking the Dark Fate Flaw was a self-fulfilling prophecy - the rest of the PCs would simply murder you in the first session so as not to be in the blast radius when your Dark Fate manifested.

[RTrimmer]

Best use of massive bad stuff I've heard of:
In one of Doyce Testerman's games a PC's 50 points of bad stuff from walking the Pattern cursed him with a Pattern Ghost that hated him, was his equal in all ways, knew everything about him and went around ambushing him and feeding, and impersonating him while assaulting relatives for blood and giggles.