TheRPGSite

I was thinking about a possibility: if a player told you, the GM, that their character was looking for a place where he would witness the real Benedict (or Corwin or whoever) die in front of them, what would you do? What would happen to that PC?

The way I see it is that they could wander 'eternally' until they found such a Shadow (or place, maybe they'd be led back into Amber). Or they could witness every Shadow of that person become more real then killed. Or they could be trapped on a Shadow, unable to move, then eventually witness Benedict's death, only to die themselves? (I mean, who's to say that they'll outlive Benedict in the first place?)

Would this be the end of the game for that PC? Would you use this strange opportunity to create a new plot for your campaign?


Apart from varied GM ideas on the subject, I'm also curious about what you think the limits of ShadowWalking are in general. If someone has died, could a PC look for a Shadow that could bring their spirit back or where they could communicate with it. How far would you take these sort of odd requests?


Personally, I like to reward player creativity... To an extent that does not abuse of the system, of course.
At this point in time, I think I would run the shadow walk for three sessions or so and hinting that they have efficiently removed themselves from the main campaign due to how long the search might be. I would try to convince them to create a new character. I would then run things back to how they were going (with the appropriate changes to allow for the new character) and let the main campaign continue.
Eventually, I would bring back that character and let them witness Benedict's death and either the old or the new PC's death as well so that they can continue playing.
It's pretty much the way I see the Shadow of Desire actually working at all in a case like this.

Another (easier) way would be for that PC to witness some false prophecy or go to some DreamWorld or the Courts of Chaos and be done with it. This would limit what we GMs allow when it comes to Shadows of Desire...

Perhaps the limits of ShadowWalking are other people's ability to walk Shadows themselves? We know Bleys arranged for Corwin to meet him (in Avernus, was it?), but could he have arranged for Corwin to meet his doom, or to meet someone else than himself?

In the end, how much influence can one ShadowWalker have over other ShadowWalkers when it comes to destiny, etc...?

Also, is there such a thing as a plain 'dead end' when walking Shadows?


(If this has been discussed elsewhere, I apologize in advance. I'm planning my next story arc and I'm going to reveal more of the cosmology/metaphysics of Amber so I've been thinking about this sort of thing a lot.)

Ouch.

IMHO, shadowalking works by manipulating Shadow (yes, I know, tough one), and thus has power over Shadow only.
When you arrange to meet someone in a given Shadow, you ain't acting on that  person, you're manipulating Shadow so that your place will be on his every paths.

Thus, while you could create a mortally dangerous Shadow and place it in front of Benedict, you've got no guarantee that it'll kill him.

Same thing goes if you're searching for someone's spirit. If the real thing still exists and is in Shadow, you'll find it. Otherwise, you'll just find shadowstuff.

Exactly.

Because Shadow isn't real. It's Shadow. It's only real if you're at the Courts or in Amber proper.

So what would I do if my player said, "I'm going to a shadow where I see the real Benedict get killed in front of me"?

I'd have him walk through Shadow until he saw a shadow of the real Benedict get killed in front of him. And then when he got back to Amber and saw Benedict at a family gathering, and he approached Benedict and said, with great puzzlement, "Uncle! How is it you are here? I saw you die! The real you!" Benedict would then shrug and say, "Nope."

And Julian, eavesdropping, would ask, "In what circumstances, dear nephew, did you see your Uncle Benedict die?" And when the player explained the whole "walking to a Shadow to see Benedict die", Julian would laugh uproariously and Benedict would grunt and walk away.

And then, depending on the player's Stuff, I would have either Llewella or Gérard (Good), Random or Flora (Zero) or Julian (Bad) explain that since Shadow isn't real, it doesn't work that way.

I tend to play shadow walking a little tighter than the book suggests.

The examples of shadow walking that we see tend to be visual rather than matters of intent. For the most part, Amberites change the physical appearance of things rather than speculate on future events.

The list of Amberites who conclusively utilise "speculative" shadow walking seems limited to Bleys (finding Avernus where a brother will arrive to assist him), Oberon (his work in Lorraine), maybe Fiona finding Brand's prison (although if she were able to create speculative features why not put him somewhere from where he would never be rescued?), perhaps Merlin finding somewhere where the physical laws allow for the construction of Ghostwheel (although this could have been accomplished by speculating on the likly physical appearance of such a world, or perhaps a Logrus trip rather than Pattern). In any event, all characters who manage anything like this are trained sorcerers with a better than average understanding of shadow, and I tend to include such things as a higher aspect of Pattern, noting to players that a very similar effect can be achieved with a detailed trip through shadow, noting relevant details.

It's worth considering some other shadow walks, such as Corwin's trip in search of diamonds. Here he engages in a difficult Hellride to a place which resembles the diamond coast of Africa pre development. He does not, and presumably cannot simply go to a place where a chest of diamonds is buried at a crossroads (for example), nor does he travel to a shadow where a diamond merchant is due to arrive in a coach with a poor escort so he can play highwayman. If Amberites could find anything they wanted just by wanting it then the books would have been a lot shorter.

Early in Nine Princes, Random comments of his pursuers "there exists the possibility that they will enter therefore they will enter" (possibly slightly paraphrased). This indicates that a shadow shifter cannot make the impossible possible. Searching for "the shadow where Benedict gets knifed" could easily be one such event. Either the character will witness the death of a shadow (based on the physical appearance of Benny) or else he may use advanced powers to find the place where Benedict will eventually meet his maker, but I hope he brings a good book or two to help him wait.

Would have to agree. You could not control the fate of a real object.

You could create a shadow with a warrior capable , in theory of beating Benedict, and you could lay this shadow on his path with advanced pattern (in fact in my games a specific partial power inside advanced pattern you would need to purchase) and you coudl wait arround for him to turn up.

What actually happened at that point etc would be played out by the real Benedict facing off against this foe. A smart Benedict would of course shift shadow making the being less powerful (in my games again more powerful shadow creatures tend to be tied to very specific shadows and as you shadow shift they get less powerful. I use the same rule to reduce he effectivness of Hi tech stuff and Shadow magic.) or something similar.

Quote from: TrevelyanIt's worth considering some other shadow walks, such as Corwin's trip in search of diamonds. Here he engages in a difficult Hellride to a place which resembles the diamond coast of Africa pre development. He does not, and presumably cannot simply go to a place where a chest of diamonds is buried at a crossroads (for example), nor does he travel to a shadow where a diamond merchant is due to arrive in a coach with a poor escort so he can play highwayman. If Amberites could find anything they wanted just by wanting it then the books would have been a lot shorter.

I think that this ShadowWalk is very significant. According to the ADRP system, the Pattern allows you to change probability a bit too easily it seems, if we keep Corwin's fairly simple need for diamonds. We can assume from this that he cannot simply increase the probability to find a buried treasure at the next crossroad, or he would have no reason to take the trip he did... Unless, of course, someone follows the whole "Corwin was looking for more than just diamonds so that his gunpowder could work properly" thing, which I don't wanna get into... :P

In any case, I think it's safe to assume that the limit of using a Shadow Walk to find another Shadow Walker in a very specific situation (such as them getting killed) is simply the willpower of that Shadow Walker and their skill in manipulating Shadows.
Corwin may have walked into Avernus because he himself was looking for some sort of solution to his Eric problem, even subconsciously.
Fiona would have looked for a Shadow prison where Brand could be jailed indefinitely and where none would find him but herself, or whatever; the point being that with enough effort on the other end, they did get through and rescued Brand after all.

The reason why I used the 'witnessing Benedict get killed' thing is because to me it seems so improbable that it would be futile. I just don't necessarily want to be limited to the 'it was Benedict's Shadow' approach. In the end though, Shadow walking only leads to Shadows... It's just a bit too obvious I guess. :P

So, unless Benedict was searching Shadow for 'the ultimate opponent' without realizing that he would pay the 'ultimate price', wandering Shadow forever might be more plausible than anything else...

Has anyone used a Shadow walk's version of a dead end or impasse? I've used Arden as a dead end before and the players always blamed it on Julian himself... Go figure. ;)

You can't search shadows for one of the Family.  If so, then the various attempts to find Corwin or Martin when they were hiding in Shadow would have succeeded.  End of story.

The closest you can get is to put a shadow of destiny in someone's path, and that won't work if they're not moving in shadow.  That's how Brand finds Corwin when he's on his way to Chaos.

Quote from: Nihilistic MindIn any case, I think it's safe to assume that the limit of using a Shadow Walk to find another Shadow Walker in a very specific situation (such as them getting killed) is simply the willpower of that Shadow Walker and their skill in manipulating Shadows.

Hum... One could assume you can't find someone more skilled in warfare than you are in psyche.

Thus, a very skilled pattern user, like fiona, might maybe find a shadow opponent suitable for benedict, whereas your average PC could only find average opponents.

Another question, though. How do you handle superpowered shadows? Like, the "Marvel Universe" shadow. How would amberites fare in it? Would their speed, strength... increase, and they'd gain superpowers in that shadow, or would they  stay "normal"?

Quote from: CroakerHum... One could assume you can't find someone more skilled in warfare than you are in psyche.

Thus, a very skilled pattern user, like fiona, might maybe find a shadow opponent suitable for benedict, whereas your average PC could only find average opponents.

Another question, though. How do you handle superpowered shadows? Like, the "Marvel Universe" shadow. How would amberites fare in it? Would their speed, strength... increase, and they'd gain superpowers in that shadow, or would they  stay "normal"?

I think you could find things more powerful than you and thus by extension other Amberites.
As for the Marvel universe well I stick to the idea that these powers are localised to a single specific shadow. The more powerful someone is the less well they travel. In the right shadow Spiderman would hose Corwin, but Corwin would just move the shadow and let Spidy follow him then laugh as he falls of the top of a 50 story building.
The same is true of Death Stars, Thermonuclear devices, the Devil, God, The Kraken and that Giant Kitten out of the Goodies.
Would be pretty nasty if your PC was killed because your evil cousin Shadow shifted a Death Star back from The Empire and vapourised the Shadow earth you happened to be living on.  Though I daresay some GMs might argue that to destroy a PC from deep space you would need superior Warfare as the character would be expecting to be attacked and have taken necessary precautions ;) after all its no different to being shot with a high powered hunting rifle from a mile away.

Quote from: CroakerAnother question, though. How do you handle superpowered shadows? Like, the "Marvel Universe" shadow. How would amberites fare in it? Would their speed, strength... increase, and they'd gain superpowers in that shadow, or would they  stay "normal"?

Depends on what the Amberite who went there was looking for. If the Amberite went to that comic book super hero universe in order to be a superhero, then the physics of that world would allow that Amberite to be comparable to the supers of that world. If they want to be a normal guy in that world, then they're a normal guy. It's all on the onus of the GM to ask those questions. Since it's a Shadow of Desire, you as a GM need to ask the questions that will let you get a feel for how the player wants the character to interact with those characters.

I have a perfect example. I had a bunch of players scatter off into shadow to gather armies to deal with a threat. One of the players decided he wanted to go to my old Champions campaign world and enlist the aid of his old character there because that character was mystical based so he should be able to deal with the fantasy-world threat they wanted. So I immediately said, "Okay, what version of your character do you want? One that could actually kick your ass sorcerously, or one that you could easily dominate?"

And he replied, "Huh? The one from the old Champions campaign."

And I explained, "Yes, but since there are infinite versions of that campaign in Shadow, I need to know just what, specifically, you want."

"Oh, okay, I get it," he said. "So I want one who can help us in our situation, but I still want to be able to overpower him if he gets out of control."

So that's what he found and that's how that superhero ended up helping the players out.

In the same run, another player went to "Middle Earth. The one from the books. I want it just like the books." He did this because he was going to enlist the aid of the Lorien elves -- he wanted their archery skill. Well, he hadn't done one of his player contributions that week, so the Lorien elves weren't exactly willing to listen to his fanciful tale of coming with him to another universe to fight a threat they'd never heard of when Sauron's forces were massing to the south.

So he decided that he needed a way to persuade them, and since he was the Rank 1 Psyche player, he figured that, since they were just Shadow creatures, he would find the One Ring and use that to control their minds. And one of the other players said, "So, you're going to go after a version of the One Ring that you can use and won't corrupt you?"

"No," he said, "I'm going after the One Ring from the books."

And since he hadn't turned in his contribution for the week and had some Bad Stuff accumulated, I got to play... the corruption of the One Ring resulted in him being seduced by and actually helping the threat they were gathering armies to fight in the first place, walking the Pattern before he had paid for it with points, and thus accumulating over 40 points of Bad Stuff for a good long time.

And he kept onto the Ring... and never paid for it in his wish lists...

Double post for some inexplicable reason.

Quote from: jibbajibbaI think you could find things more powerful than you and thus by extension other Amberites.
As for the Marvel universe well I stick to the idea that these powers are localised to a single specific shadow. The more powerful someone is the less well they travel. In the right shadow Spiderman would hose Corwin, but Corwin would just move the shadow and let Spidy follow him then laugh as he falls of the top of a 50 story building.
The same is true of Death Stars, Thermonuclear devices, the Devil, God, The Kraken and that Giant Kitten out of the Goodies.

I concur, with the caveat that a sufficiently skilled Amberite might be able to follow a path through shadows where some of these things would retain their power. Doing so would not leave the character free to shift through shadow as they wish, however, so they'd have to take a very long way around in most cases and probably never reach their destination.

Take the Death Star as an example. It's easy to move that from Star Wars to Star Trek if you want to blast the Enterprise as the tech levels are broadly similar (FTL travel, computers, etc). Moving back to a 20th century setting is tougher, but some shadows along the Independence Day axis might allow it. Taking the Death Star to a fundamentally fantasy/magic setting is almost impossible (but not quite - see Krull). But for every 2th centuray setting where the Death Star might function, there are hundreds where it certainly won't, and studies show that 99.99% of Cimerian's are safe from planetary destruction.

Generally, the more powerful a thing is, the more limited it is. Taking Cthulhu shadow walking to drop him on Benedict is a no go. Taking Spider-man to wrestle Gerard is considerably easier.

Quote from: TrevelyanI concur, with the caveat that a sufficiently skilled Amberite might be able to follow a path through shadows where some of these things would retain their power. Doing so would not leave the character free to shift through shadow as they wish, however, so they'd have to take a very long way around in most cases and probably never reach their destination.

Take the Death Star as an example. It's easy to move that from Star Wars to Star Trek if you want to blast the Enterprise as the tech levels are broadly similar (FTL travel, computers, etc). Moving back to a 20th century setting is tougher, but some shadows along the Independence Day axis might allow it. Taking the Death Star to a fundamentally fantasy/magic setting is almost impossible (but not quite - see Krull). But for every 2th centuray setting where the Death Star might function, there are hundreds where it certainly won't, and studies show that 99.99% of Cimerian's are safe from planetary destruction.

Generally, the more powerful a thing is, the more limited it is. Taking Cthulhu shadow walking to drop him on Benedict is a no go. Taking Spider-man to wrestle Gerard is considerably easier.

Yes with another caveat :-) unless a player specifically stated that the shadow earth he lived on allowed Star Wars technology I would say your death star would not work there.  

I would also say that you would have to take Gerard to wrestle Spiderman and not the other way round. For some reason i don't have a problem with taking Conan to wrestle Gerrard but i just think Spidy's powers relying as they are on a radioactive spider bite as opposed to pushing that bloody big wheel round for 20 years have a shorter range in shadow.

Of course you get into that who nasty areas of advanced shadow masters manipulating the local shadow to allow these things to work but I still wouldn't let a pc kill another by destroying the planet from space unless they had moved to tatooine or somethign

"Who would win in a fight? Superman, Thor, or Gérard"?



Feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

Quote from: Uncle Twitchy"Who would win in a fight? Superman, Thor, or Gérard"?



Feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

Your post was most eloquent and I liked the idea of the One Ring dominating a PC. however still say it would loose its power if moved to another shadow, unless its really a spirkard hidden there by Sand ...

Sure -- except that he wanted "the One Ring" as he imagined it, "from the book," but also one that would work in other Shadows to deal with this threat outside of Middle Earth. In effect, he was creating a "One Ring of Desire" -- and since he had craploads of Bad Stuff in play that session, it ended up biting him on the ass.

Again, my point is, when you're dealing with Shadow, anything an Amberite searches for is going to be influenced by their perceptions, desires, and subconscious. So there's no absolute "Thor could beat Gérard" situation... there's infinite versions of Marvel's Thor out there in Shadow for the players to find. You have to determine what they expect to find and tailor the encounter accordingly.

Which does not invalidate your point about shifting Shadows -- because ultimately they're moving away from the original version they stumbled on and end up with a different one, more suited to the Shadow they end up in... which, most likely, completely invalidates their powers.

Unless they go to a Shadow of the Marvel Universe where they expect that version of Thor to be able to retain his abilities as they take him through Shadow -- in which case, then, I still maintain that Substance trumps Shadow every single time. Take that Thor-retains-his-powers-as-he-travels-through-Shadow to Amber itself and he might have weather control and super strength, but that strength is still relative to Shadow, and *not* to Substance. Only in Shadow itself is it going to be impressive.

It's a subtle distinction that I think people fail to remember -- the only objective reality is Amber and the Courts. Anything else is not real, and therefore subject to the subjective expectations of the Amberite who travels through Shadow. Therefore it's the GM's responsibility to find out what those expectations are.

Quote from: Uncle Twitchyhe might have weather control and super strength, but that strength is still relative to Shadow, and *not* to Substance. Only in Shadow itself is it going to be impressive.

I fail to understand you.
How could he retain his super-stregth in Amber without it being effective? Unless he can only use it to lift shadow items, for exemple?

Bingo.

(Unless, of course, the person who found him and brought him to Amber expected his strength to work in Amber. I'd still have anyone of Subtance -- certainly Gérard -- be able to kick his ass, though, because, like I said, Subtance trumps Shadow. Especially in Amber. What this means is that, while Thor might be able to lift boulders and toss galleons around -- and that might be where you'd take the Psyche of the guy who brought him to Amber in the first place into account -- in a wrestling match Gérard would still be able to trash him because he's just a creature from Shadow.)

Quote from: Uncle TwitchyBingo.

(Unless, of course, the person who found him and brought him to Amber expected his strength to work in Amber. I'd still have anyone of Subtance -- certainly Gérard -- be able to kick his ass, though, because, like I said, Subtance trumps Shadow. Especially in Amber. What this means is that, while Thor might be able to lift boulders and toss galleons around -- and that might be where you'd take the Psyche of the guy who brought him to Amber in the first place into account -- in a wrestling match Gérard would still be able to trash him because he's just a creature from Shadow.)

What if, and this is just a theoretical, Thor had been summoned as a creature with say 64 points worth of Vitality (here we are assuming we can extend Amber rank costing 4 and go through Low rank = 8 Mid rank = 16 high rank = 32 and ouch = 64).

Even in that case, "Thor" is still a Shadow creature. In Shadow, a formidable threat to a PC. To an elder, or in Amber? The threat he poses is only contingent on how stupid the elder or Amberite is being in dealing with it.

Hell, in my campaign, someone with Pattern Negation can dispel Shadow critters or objects in Amber -- unless they've been there long enough to acquire substance of their own.

Quote from: Uncle TwitchyHell, in my campaign, someone with Pattern Negation can dispel Shadow critters or objects in Amber -- unless they've been there long enough to acquire substance of their own.

Good one, and logical IMO.
I like it.

Makes defeating those armies from shadow easier :-)

Well, again, not necessarily.

Consider: An army out of Shadow coming to Amber is likely going to be lead by someone of Substance (not always the case -- Moonriders of Ghenesh, anyone?),  and must be led gradually through Shadow towards Amber itself, which gives them a little bit of Substantiality themselves. Not much, but a little -- enough that it comes down to a Psyche comparison as to whether an individual -- not an entire army, and individual -- can be dispelled.

And usually people are too caught up in the heat of battle to consider using Power Words anyway -- I mean, it's not like you can fight some guy and just snap your fingers and pop him like a soap bubble.

But I did have an instance where someone brought the Tin Woodsman of Oz to Amber, and Julian, was in a rather bad mood as he walked by, saw it and said, "Oh, no, that's not going to happen today," and dispelled it immediately. He then lectured the players about travelling to Shadows based on fictional works and how utterly juvenile it was.

When it comes to players asking to travel to 'a Shadow of Middle Earth' or a 'Marvel Universe Shadow', I don't allow things that refer to other universes this specifically, unless perhaps the PC has spent a long time on Shadow Earth where they might have picked up the culture, etc...

I let the player describe what they want to find. It's the GM's job to fill in the rest. If a player asks for something very specific, like a Star Wars Shadow, where everything has already been defined by someone other than the GM, it takes away from player creativity as well as GM creativity.


In one particular mini-campaign, the PCs were allowed to take a power to replace sorcery, for the same cost, which allowed them to effectively adapt to the powers of the local shadow easily (based on psyche). So if they went to a super-hero world, they would in fact discover that they have super powers on that shadow... or that they are Gods or Demi-Gods in a Shadow based on Ancient Greek Mythology etc... It was an insane 3 sessions, but a lot of fun too.

Quote from: Uncle TwitchyWell, again, not necessarily.

Consider: An army out of Shadow coming to Amber is likely going to be lead by someone of Substance (not always the case -- Moonriders of Ghenesh, anyone?),  and must be led gradually through Shadow towards Amber itself, which gives them a little bit of Substantiality themselves. Not much, but a little -- enough that it comes down to a Psyche comparison as to whether an individual -- not an entire army, and individual -- can be dispelled.

And usually people are too caught up in the heat of battle to consider using Power Words anyway -- I mean, it's not like you can fight some guy and just snap your fingers and pop him like a soap bubble.

But I did have an instance where someone brought the Tin Woodsman of Oz to Amber, and Julian, was in a rather bad mood as he walked by, saw it and said, "Oh, no, that's not going to happen today," and dispelled it immediately. He then lectured the players about travelling to Shadows based on fictional works and how utterly juvenile it was.

You knew I wasn't going to agree with that right :-)
I see no evidence int eh books that shadow creatures can be easliy dispeled in Amber or anywhere else. I can concede that things from Amber have a richer aspect and that as things stay there they take on some of this but I don't think for a second that a sword I just logrussed into my hand from a shadow is somehow as soft as tissue paper or that a dragon that just flew in can be dispelled with a Power word. The act of moving towards Amber can't make something more real until to get to a certain point say the Golden Circle for want of a less arbitrary dividing line otherwise we are saying that shadow stuff from nearer Amber is more real that stuff further away and then we need to have a system to graduate how far stuff is away from amber...
If I engage an incoming fleet a few shadows out I surely shouldn't be able to dispell whole ships with a power word.
And as for people don't use Power words in the Heat of battle ...  that is exactly when you use Power Words that is what they are for :-)

Will it shock you to learn that I agree with you? :)

Here's the thing -- I've been trying to reason out the significance of Shadow "not being real" (since that's what Zelazny tells us) for some time now. I mean, if it's real enough that it can affect Substance, then what does it matter that Amber is the "one true realm of which all others are Shadows", or why would the succession really matter if people could just go to a Shadow of Amber where they are the ruler? ("Because it's not the real one" and Amberite ego notwithstanding, since that's ultimately a weak argument and I don't buy it when Corwin says that in the chronicles.)

And the answer I come up with is that, to a creature of Substance -- and Amberite or a Chaosite -- anything of Shadow is essentially chimeric. Eventually those chimeric Shadow things gain enough substance when in realms of Substance to become Substantial themselves -- witness the manticora in Arden, for example -- but ultimately, they shouldn't matter.

This is why the Black Road was such a threat, compared to the other assaults on Mt. Kolvir in Amber's past -- the creatures of the Black Road were Chaosites, creatures of Substance.

Quote from: jibbajibbawe are saying that shadow stuff from nearer Amber is more real that stuff further away

Well, isn't it the case?

Oh, and I'd allow the destruction of a single item/psyche, requiring an overwhelming psyche advantage, comparable to Amber vs Human. Not whole fleets. And only "typical shadow things", of course.

Perhaps a Power Word: Dispel Shadow would be better suited than Pattern Negation.

I like a spell "dispell shadow" , its a bit tough for a power word (maybe An Exaulted Power Word if you allow powerwords to be extended in that fashion).
I just don't really think that you get that sense from the books. Shadows might be shadwos but they are still real shadows if that makes any sense...
I would say the comment about wanting to rule in Amber rather than say Avalon, is all about want to put your self into direct opposition to your brothers. Its equivalent of the Football player that wins the Dutch league every year but wants the challenge of the English Permiership or the Spanish or Italian leagues as that is where the best players are.

Agreed for Dispel Shadow.

As per such a power word being too powerfull... I don't know. Character can already destroy or alter whole universes. What's the ability to destroy a single puny human being besides that? Hardly worth the effort, IMO

Well go back to the books. The justification for the existance of Power words is that one moment when Corwin gives Stralgwdir (?) a hotfoot. I like Power words a lot but I use them for a slight advantage. I do like the idea of advanced and exalted Power words, but destroying a shadow creature ... doesn't feel right somehow. We can't look at the book for an example because there are none but the feeling I get from the books is that shadow opponents need to be taken seriously. Yes they are not as tough as Amberites but that is more about their experience, longevity and powers than about their actual substance.
I have a pet theory that all Amberites are just made up of Shadow stuff anyway ....

Oh, well, advanced or exalted then, I don't care much.

And I might somehow agree with you on amberites ;)

Quote from: OthaYou can't search shadows for one of the Family.  If so, then the various attempts to find Corwin or Martin when they were hiding in Shadow would have succeeded.  End of story.

Then why would they bother looking for them in the first place? I think there's more to it than that it simply cannot be done...

If someone can find a Shadow that will be in the path of someone or something of substance, why can't they find a Shadow where they can avoid someone of substance...
Couldn't an amberite find 'a place in Shadow that other Amberites won't find', which could arguably be overcome by someone of superior skill (advanced Pattern, higher psyche etc...)???

I agree totally with Nihilistic Mind,
Not that it matters that it is 'End of story' to one person, I guess that would a premature conclusion, but it seems Otha's used to that.... Kinda comin; off like Julian there Otha.

It was even stated in the books that it might have been that Corwin's change of mind/personality is what kept him from being found, and if the others were actually trying NOT to be found.... that DOES come into play too ... I'm sure...

No Otha, i believe the better use of Pattern, Trump, or whatever power will do can locate an Amberite. It's just that there are contested actions, and most Amberites don't want to be found who aren't. (Or Can't be found due to imprisonment or other.) Also there are Shadows and probabilities to contend with...

I bet you're an awesome GM, but I'm not sure I'd want to experience the game in your vision Otha. No insult, just total disagreement on this... and some other issues.

Quote from: OthaYou can't search shadows for one of the Family.  If so, then the various attempts to find Corwin or Martin when they were hiding in Shadow would have succeeded.  End of story.

The closest you can get is to put a shadow of destiny in someone's path, and that won't work if they're not moving in shadow.  That's how Brand finds Corwin when he's on his way to Chaos.

Also, I thought that Brand was using his TRUMP POWER to find Corwin...
Oberon used Shadow of Destiny.
Brand could kinda - see through the looking glass - sorta, Mind's eye trump.
Looking for Corwin...
You don't see it that way?

NOT end of story.:p