An Infinity of Shadows and the Limits of a 'Shadow of Desire'

[Uncle Twitchy]

Sure -- except that he wanted "the One Ring" as he imagined it, "from the book," but also one that would work in other Shadows to deal with this threat outside of Middle Earth. In effect, he was creating a "One Ring of Desire" -- and since he had craploads of Bad Stuff in play that session, it ended up biting him on the ass.

Again, my point is, when you're dealing with Shadow, anything an Amberite searches for is going to be influenced by their perceptions, desires, and subconscious. So there's no absolute "Thor could beat Gérard" situation... there's infinite versions of Marvel's Thor out there in Shadow for the players to find. You have to determine what they expect to find and tailor the encounter accordingly.

Which does not invalidate your point about shifting Shadows -- because ultimately they're moving away from the original version they stumbled on and end up with a different one, more suited to the Shadow they end up in... which, most likely, completely invalidates their powers.

Unless they go to a Shadow of the Marvel Universe where they expect that version of Thor to be able to retain his abilities as they take him through Shadow -- in which case, then, I still maintain that Substance trumps Shadow every single time. Take that Thor-retains-his-powers-as-he-travels-through-Shadow to Amber itself and he might have weather control and super strength, but that strength is still relative to Shadow, and *not* to Substance. Only in Shadow itself is it going to be impressive.

It's a subtle distinction that I think people fail to remember -- the only objective reality is Amber and the Courts. Anything else is not real, and therefore subject to the subjective expectations of the Amberite who travels through Shadow. Therefore it's the GM's responsibility to find out what those expectations are.

[Croaker]

he might have weather control and super strength, but that strength is still relative to Shadow, and *not* to Substance. Only in Shadow itself is it going to be impressive.

I fail to understand you.
How could he retain his super-stregth in Amber without it being effective? Unless he can only use it to lift shadow items, for exemple?

[Uncle Twitchy]

Bingo.

(Unless, of course, the person who found him and brought him to Amber expected his strength to work in Amber. I'd still have anyone of Subtance -- certainly Gérard -- be able to kick his ass, though, because, like I said, Subtance trumps Shadow. Especially in Amber. What this means is that, while Thor might be able to lift boulders and toss galleons around -- and that might be where you'd take the Psyche of the guy who brought him to Amber in the first place into account -- in a wrestling match Gérard would still be able to trash him because he's just a creature from Shadow.)

[jibbajibba]

Bingo.

(Unless, of course, the person who found him and brought him to Amber expected his strength to work in Amber. I'd still have anyone of Subtance -- certainly Gérard -- be able to kick his ass, though, because, like I said, Subtance trumps Shadow. Especially in Amber. What this means is that, while Thor might be able to lift boulders and toss galleons around -- and that might be where you'd take the Psyche of the guy who brought him to Amber in the first place into account -- in a wrestling match Gérard would still be able to trash him because he's just a creature from Shadow.)

What if, and this is just a theoretical, Thor had been summoned as a creature with say 64 points worth of Vitality (here we are assuming we can extend Amber rank costing 4 and go through Low rank = 8 Mid rank = 16 high rank = 32 and ouch = 64).

[Uncle Twitchy]

Even in that case, "Thor" is still a Shadow creature. In Shadow, a formidable threat to a PC. To an elder, or in Amber? The threat he poses is only contingent on how stupid the elder or Amberite is being in dealing with it.

Hell, in my campaign, someone with Pattern Negation can dispel Shadow critters or objects in Amber -- unless they've been there long enough to acquire substance of their own.

[Croaker]

Hell, in my campaign, someone with Pattern Negation can dispel Shadow critters or objects in Amber -- unless they've been there long enough to acquire substance of their own.

Good one, and logical IMO.
I like it.

[jibbajibba]

Makes defeating those armies from shadow easier :-)

[Uncle Twitchy]

Well, again, not necessarily.

Consider: An army out of Shadow coming to Amber is likely going to be lead by someone of Substance (not always the case -- Moonriders of Ghenesh, anyone?),  and must be led gradually through Shadow towards Amber itself, which gives them a little bit of Substantiality themselves. Not much, but a little -- enough that it comes down to a Psyche comparison as to whether an individual -- not an entire army, and individual -- can be dispelled.

And usually people are too caught up in the heat of battle to consider using Power Words anyway -- I mean, it's not like you can fight some guy and just snap your fingers and pop him like a soap bubble.

But I did have an instance where someone brought the Tin Woodsman of Oz to Amber, and Julian, was in a rather bad mood as he walked by, saw it and said, "Oh, no, that's not going to happen today," and dispelled it immediately. He then lectured the players about travelling to Shadows based on fictional works and how utterly juvenile it was.

[Nihilistic Mind]

When it comes to players asking to travel to 'a Shadow of Middle Earth' or a 'Marvel Universe Shadow', I don't allow things that refer to other universes this specifically, unless perhaps the PC has spent a long time on Shadow Earth where they might have picked up the culture, etc...

I let the player describe what they want to find. It's the GM's job to fill in the rest. If a player asks for something very specific, like a Star Wars Shadow, where everything has already been defined by someone other than the GM, it takes away from player creativity as well as GM creativity.


In one particular mini-campaign, the PCs were allowed to take a power to replace sorcery, for the same cost, which allowed them to effectively adapt to the powers of the local shadow easily (based on psyche). So if they went to a super-hero world, they would in fact discover that they have super powers on that shadow... or that they are Gods or Demi-Gods in a Shadow based on Ancient Greek Mythology etc... It was an insane 3 sessions, but a lot of fun too.

[jibbajibba]

Well, again, not necessarily.

Consider: An army out of Shadow coming to Amber is likely going to be lead by someone of Substance (not always the case -- Moonriders of Ghenesh, anyone?),  and must be led gradually through Shadow towards Amber itself, which gives them a little bit of Substantiality themselves. Not much, but a little -- enough that it comes down to a Psyche comparison as to whether an individual -- not an entire army, and individual -- can be dispelled.

And usually people are too caught up in the heat of battle to consider using Power Words anyway -- I mean, it's not like you can fight some guy and just snap your fingers and pop him like a soap bubble.

But I did have an instance where someone brought the Tin Woodsman of Oz to Amber, and Julian, was in a rather bad mood as he walked by, saw it and said, "Oh, no, that's not going to happen today," and dispelled it immediately. He then lectured the players about travelling to Shadows based on fictional works and how utterly juvenile it was.

You knew I wasn't going to agree with that right :-)
I see no evidence int eh books that shadow creatures can be easliy dispeled in Amber or anywhere else. I can concede that things from Amber have a richer aspect and that as things stay there they take on some of this but I don't think for a second that a sword I just logrussed into my hand from a shadow is somehow as soft as tissue paper or that a dragon that just flew in can be dispelled with a Power word. The act of moving towards Amber can't make something more real until to get to a certain point say the Golden Circle for want of a less arbitrary dividing line otherwise we are saying that shadow stuff from nearer Amber is more real that stuff further away and then we need to have a system to graduate how far stuff is away from amber...
If I engage an incoming fleet a few shadows out I surely shouldn't be able to dispell whole ships with a power word.
And as for people don't use Power words in the Heat of battle ...  that is exactly when you use Power Words that is what they are for :-)

[Uncle Twitchy]

Will it shock you to learn that I agree with you?

Here's the thing -- I've been trying to reason out the significance of Shadow "not being real" (since that's what Zelazny tells us) for some time now. I mean, if it's real enough that it can affect Substance, then what does it matter that Amber is the "one true realm of which all others are Shadows", or why would the succession really matter if people could just go to a Shadow of Amber where they are the ruler? ("Because it's not the real one" and Amberite ego notwithstanding, since that's ultimately a weak argument and I don't buy it when Corwin says that in the chronicles.)

And the answer I come up with is that, to a creature of Substance -- and Amberite or a Chaosite -- anything of Shadow is essentially chimeric. Eventually those chimeric Shadow things gain enough substance when in realms of Substance to become Substantial themselves -- witness the manticora in Arden, for example -- but ultimately, they shouldn't matter.

This is why the Black Road was such a threat, compared to the other assaults on Mt. Kolvir in Amber's past -- the creatures of the Black Road were Chaosites, creatures of Substance.

[Croaker]

we are saying that shadow stuff from nearer Amber is more real that stuff further away

Well, isn't it the case?

Oh, and I'd allow the destruction of a single item/psyche, requiring an overwhelming psyche advantage, comparable to Amber vs Human. Not whole fleets. And only "typical shadow things", of course.

[Uncle Twitchy]

Perhaps a Power Word: Dispel Shadow would be better suited than Pattern Negation.

[jibbajibba]

I like a spell "dispell shadow" , its a bit tough for a power word (maybe An Exaulted Power Word if you allow powerwords to be extended in that fashion).
I just don't really think that you get that sense from the books. Shadows might be shadwos but they are still real shadows if that makes any sense...
I would say the comment about wanting to rule in Amber rather than say Avalon, is all about want to put your self into direct opposition to your brothers. Its equivalent of the Football player that wins the Dutch league every year but wants the challenge of the English Permiership or the Spanish or Italian leagues as that is where the best players are.

[Croaker]

Agreed for Dispel Shadow.

As per such a power word being too powerfull... I don't know. Character can already destroy or alter whole universes. What's the ability to destroy a single puny human being besides that? Hardly worth the effort, IMO