An Amber-in-all-but-name Game?

[Drascus]

Sigh, everything that I have learned about Diceless by Design says that they were graciously given the licence for the game by Eric Wujek, but that it came with the huge caveat of Mr. Zelazney's estate pushing for payment (my guess would be something burdensome), so DbD keeps their head low, (on the advice of their attorney most likely), and slowly gathers in money from the sale of PDFs.

And no you can't go using kickstarter because you talking about a licenced property that you don't have clear ownership of, which violates kickstarters  user agreement, you would have to negotiate with Mr Zelazney's estate BEFORE you could start a Patronage or Ransom model project like that, Diceless By Design AT BEST only owns the Rights to the 1st Editon of the Game, ANY use of Zelazney's trademarks would require permission from the copyright and trademark holders.

Its not about offending its about getting sued, for thousands of dollars and LOSING.

Do I wish they were more public about the problems yes, but they don't OWE you a second edition, if you want a second edition so bad YOU PAY FOR A LICENCE FOR A NEW RPG based on amber.  

So yeah...

Do you have any evidence of this or is this just a scenario you decided was true?  Because... that doesn't sound at all the way litigation over a licence would go.  You can't give someone to someone and have your estate turn around and charge them for it.

You also can't have your estate force someone to buy something that the person can't afford.  I just can't see any way this would actually make sense.

And as far as I know they aren't selling anything, PDFs for physical.

[steelmax73]

well i don't know where all the DbD apologist come from. but the world i come from you get results, not shovel out excuses. all i hear is why nothing can get done and i hear nothing from their camp about solutions. ma by they could start development on a dicless system that could later power the amber game, but nothing is still nothing.

[Qwilion]

Yes, it has been on sale since 09-20-2004.

Diceless by Design DrivethruRPG

[Qwilion]

Do you have any evidence of this or is this just a scenario you decided was true?

You mean do I have a copy of the physical licence Eric Wujeck had with Roger Zelazney that he passed on to Diceless by Design? No,

Did I reach out to Diceless by Design with the purpose of creating a patronage project so that the funds to pay for licencing and the production of a new editon? Yes

Have I actually gotten in contact with Diceless by Design through a third party and had it relayed to me by the third party that they are following the advice of their attorney? Yes

Do I have experience with licence properties for RPGs? Yes. My own limited licence for Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, Pathfinder Rpg compatibility licence, M&M superlink licence, Powered by Spycraft, Powered by Fantasycraft and  Savaged Worlds Official Licence.

Because... that doesn't sound at all the way litigation over a licence would go. You can't give someone to someone and have your estate turn around and charge them for it.

Sure you can its called revocation of a licence, D20 had it and WotC enforced it on every single company to revome the d20  logo from thier products when the launched 4e, Pathfinder Rpg has it, Mutants and Masterminds has, Arcana Evolved Limited Licence has it, Powered by Spycaft, oh and our own product Heroes of the Jade Oath, which we set up as a licensed property with the creator.  

Eric gave the the copyrights to the game which were given to Diceless by Design, but its a licenced game. The Zelazney estate did not give them anything. The Zelazney Estate holds the copyrights to the amber trademarks,  so they still have to negotiate with Mr. Zelazney's estate.

You also can't have your estate force someone to buy something that the person can't afford. I just can't see any way this would actually make sense.

Yes you can, I will give you a prime example of a company being force to drop a licence because of the cost enforced by the actual owner of the Trademark.

WotC Drops Star Wars License

But how about one that is closer to this situation, Mongoose loosing the Licence for the Conan RPG.  Simply because they are looking to have it as a merchandise option when the sell the rights for another movie.  Mongoose was willing to pay the licencing fee and had products planned (Remba anyone).  And the Howard estate said no.

And as far as I know they aren't selling anything, PDFs for physical.

Then you should have gone to DrivethruRpg/Rpg now and typed in AMBER,  Or Diceless by Design as they have been selling it as a pdf since 09-20-2004.

Or you could have read the The Official Amber DRPG LINKS GALORE! in the very first post.

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing

[Qwilion]

well i don't know where all the DbD apologist come from.

If I sound like a DbD apologist that is not my intent.

They have horrible customer relations, and need to communicate with their customer base, even if that requires a prepared statement about the issues.    

but the world i come from you get results, not shovel out excuses. all i hear is why nothing can get done and i hear nothing from their camp about solutions

 I have put forward the solution that Rite Publishing create a patronage project to fund this and pay for the licence but the hurdle you run into is that you can't use the Amber trademarks when you solicit for patrons until you have the licence from BOTH diceless by design and the Zelazney estate.  

There is a difference between a reason something cannot be done, rather than a an excuse.  I would be happy to hear your opinion (or any opinion) on how this legal hurdle could be overcome.

ma by they could start development on a dicless system that could later power the amber game, but nothing is still nothing.

I agree, but we have no information to say they are or are not doing that.

That silence is frustrating and offensive to me as a customer of Diceless by Design's PDFs.

However I don't have a sense of entitlement that DbD owes me a new edition.

[jibbajibba]

If I sound like a DbD apologist that is not my intent.

They have horrible customer relations, and need to communicate with their customer base, even if that requires a prepared statement about the issues.    



 I have put forward the solution that Rite Publishing create a patronage project to fund this and pay for the licence but the hurdle you run into is that you can't use the Amber trademarks when you solicit for patrons until you have the licence from BOTH diceless by design and the Zelazney estate.  

There is a difference between a reason something cannot be done, rather than a an excuse.  I would be happy to hear your opinion (or any opinion) on how this legal hurdle could be overcome.



I agree, but we have no information to say they are or are not doing that.

That silence is frustrating and offensive to me as a customer of Diceless by Design's PDFs.

However I don't have a sense of entitlement that DbD owes me a new edition.

Thanks for the info. Nice to have some people about that know what they are talking about

[steelmax73]

Qwilion if you ran DbD i think things would be much further along. yes their silence is what really get my ire up.

[Croaker]

Seconded. Thank you very much, Qwillion

[Qwilion]

I have sent an email to Diceless by Design about licencing just the game system for a new setting. I am also going to make an additional attempt through my third party contact.

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing

[steelmax73]

good to hear

[Qwilion]

I want to be transparent in my actions going forward so that folks know what is going on.  Here is a communication between myself and Diceless by Designs

Greetings,

My name is Steven Russell. I run Rite Publishing. We have created patronage projects using both Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Limited License and the Pathfinder compatibility license.  One patronage project that our patrons have expressed interest in is one for Amber DRPG. I looked over the potential licencing issues for Amber and made a suggestion for a new setting that uses the underling mechanics but would not require the use of the Amber setting and hence its potential underlying licencing issue.  I am curious about whether you would be interested in licensing your Diceless system?  

I have included a complimentary copy of one of our patronage projects, if you would like to see additional samples please contact me at your earliest convenience..

Thank you for your time. I hope to hear from you at your convenience.
--
Steve "Qwilion" Russell
Rite Publishing

A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong.

Here is the Response from Diceless by Design.

Steve,

Thank you for thinking of the Amber Diceless RPG system.  We are interested in licensing the Amber Diceless RPG system: over the years we both attended scores of Ambercons and Gencons and have it seen used for a staggeringly large range of settings outside of Amber.

We're looking forward to hearing more!

Regards,

Edwin Voskamp

So the next step is a pitch for a patronage project, I would like the boards input on who I should recruit as the primary author/developer for this project.   I can't unfortunately though its part of a dream project for me, I am busy with Questhaven for the Pathfinder Rpg and Rituals of Choice for Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.

The only person I can think of to do this is Jason Durall so sent him an email as well.

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing

[RPGPundit]

It sounds as though what is being suggested here is that you use the Amber rules to make a game set in something other than Amber? Is that right?

RPGPundit

[Qwilion]

The only way we could set it in Amber would be to cut a new Rpg licencing agreement with the Zelazney Estate. The problem with pursing this is that you draw attention to the existing sales of PDFs, which could cause the Amber DRPG to be shut down. That is not something I want,

Also what I hope for is that with a Bussiness Relationship established I could convice Diceless by Design to make the Amber DRPG available via a POD like LULU.com or DrivethruRpg's coming deal with lightning source.

What I am proposing is a alternate setting that

1. is not limited by the Amber setting.
2. is similar thematically so the rules are still relevant.
3. would still be of interest to Amberites,
4. the modified rules system could be used to play amber, or be used for the second edition of a Amber DRPG.

[jibbajibba]

The only way we could set it in Amber would be to cut a new Rpg licencing agreement with the Zelazney Estate. The problem with pursing this is that you draw attention to the existing sales of PDFs, which could cause the Amber DRPG to be shut down. That is not something I want,

Also what I hope for is that with a Bussiness Relationship established I could convice Diceless by Design to make the Amber DRPG available via a POD like LULU.com or DrivethruRpg's coming deal with lightning source.

What I am proposing is a alternate setting that

1. is not limited by the Amber setting.
2. is similar thematically so the rules are still relevant.
3. would still be of interest to Amberites,
4. the modified rules system could be used to play amber, or be used for the second edition of a Amber DRPG.

I can see the logic of that. I assume you will need to have new powers and you'll adopt some sort of structure that could then be applied to Logrus , Trump and Pattern if the rules were to be ported over to run Amber or would you look to lift those wholesale and just impose them in another setting as I think that would be more problematic from both an IP position but also from a playability angle. I would suggest a toolkit to construct powers that happens to allow you to build PAttern and Logrus as the obvious approach.

[Qwilion]

Just to update

Jason Durall  Who actually worked on Shadow Knight and has a huge amount of experience working on licensed products. has expressed a very positive interest in working with us on this project  So I would leave the fundamentals of creating that to him, if you want a construction kit, then alll you would have to do is become a senior patron and insist upon something like that.

In the end my design goals don't matter as much as patron design goals.

First I need to hammer out the licencing though

Steve.