An Amber-in-all-but-name Game?

[Drascus]

I think that Family counts as a universal enough concept to be proof from copyright infringement.

[gabriel_ss4u]

Long ago I created a rpg sourcebook/game version (on my own) adapted to the rules of White wolf, I called it "immortal" based on the Highlander stuff, new powers, abilities, head collecting, etc. I wrote up some stuff, made a character sheet, and posted it online from St. Louis.
Moved back to Chicago after a few yrs. I found out there were people playing it, I though ti t was cool, I guess others did too, 'cause WW came out with immortal games shortly after, (trying not to look tooooo highlander-ish)
Perhaps if you just do it, and have no proprietary info on it, and just post it somewhere, it will catch on, evolve, and become the 'new thing'.

I'm a fan of 'everyone make there own sourcebooks' but this could get it going faster. Once people have the resource to play Amber, the game designers will see they aren't making $$ sitting around watching people play hack-Amber. They'll jump in and redo it for their share of the $.
sad to say, but $ does run this damn world, or at least the will to obtain it.

[Drascus]

Long ago I created a rpg sourcebook/game version (on my own) adapted to the rules of White wolf, I called it "immortal" based on the Highlander stuff, new powers, abilities, head collecting, etc. I wrote up some stuff, made a character sheet, and posted it online from St. Louis.
Moved back to Chicago after a few yrs. I found out there were people playing it, I though ti t was cool, I guess others did too, 'cause WW came out with immortal games shortly after, (trying not to look tooooo highlander-ish)
Perhaps if you just do it, and have no proprietary info on it, and just post it somewhere, it will catch on, evolve, and become the 'new thing'.

I'm a fan of 'everyone make there own sourcebooks' but this could get it going faster. Once people have the resource to play Amber, the game designers will see they aren't making $$ sitting around watching people play hack-Amber. They'll jump in and redo it for their share of the $.
sad to say, but $ does run this damn world, or at least the will to obtain it.

Uh, that one's pretty problematic.  There's two different sources of intellectual property you're ripping off.  It's fine to create it under fair-use rules, but you'd never be allowed to profit from it if the companies in question found out.

[Qwilion]

I am still interested in finding out what the licencing from Zelazney's estate would costs, and then contacting Diceless by Design about the cost of licencing the real rules straight up.

I think it would make a great Ransom/Patronage project.

If I knew the costs of either of those things It would be cake to set up a quality version of this.

Noblis is already out there if we are talking a Diceless game that is not Amber.

[jibbajibba]

It does strike me that if it were just a case of releasing the old rules in a print on demand or pdf format then DbD would have done it. Very low cost and might generate some background game interest.

I mean it stands to reason that you do that as soon as you get the license while you are planning and writing 2e.

I can only assume therefore that something blocked even this simple step.

[Drascus]

It's not free in terms of time though, and the DbD guys are not a publishing house, really.  They're just people who would like to publish Amber but have regular jobs.  

Also there's an investment you have to put in for building a site to sell the books from, advertising the site, etc.  You could defray some of those costs via a site like Drive Thru RPG, but even so, you wouldn't make real money off of it without putting some cash in.

My guess is that the DbD guys had good intentions when Wujick handed the liscence off to them, but simply didn't have the time/energy/money to make the project a reality.  They've been sitting on it long enough that I doubt they even think about it all that often.  It's simply become one of those things they ment to do that will never happen.

I don't know how much they'd want to charge for the licences, but if it was low, it might be worth it for a small publishing group to buy it up.  Just based on Ambercon numbers, and a guess that at most you'd get say, 1 in 5 people who are willing to lay down money to go to Ambercon to pay say, $15 for a 2e version of the game, plus a few more people who don't go to the con, you're looking at about $10,000 in net-profit from a release of the 2e book on the internet.

Those numbers are super rough, and pessimisticly skewed, but it's best to start with that kind of pessimism when you have a market like this that hasn't been tested in decades.  It's possible you might lose your shirt, since most people can get a copy of the rules one way or another, and usually mod the hell out of them.

So realistically, what would someone be willing to pay for the licences?  You probably shouldn't pay more than $2,000.  This means you're going to make somewhere between 8 and 10k on the book, a pretty paltry return for the amount of work it would represent.  Of course you'd be hoping you could sell at least a couple more sourcebooks afterwards, netting you maybe 20k more total.  

It's something you'd do because you want to see another version of Amber out, not because you want to make money.  That pretty much puts it only in the realm of really small publishing houses, or a group of fans coming together to try and publish for the first time.

Due to the small market for Diceless games, and the fact that no Amber fiction has come out in a really really long time, it's unfortunently just not a very feasible project.  Our best hope for this happening is that somebody attached to a small publishing house becomes a huge fan of Amber.

[Qwilion]

From what I have been able to gather it has to do with Zelazney's Estate, and legal advice.

[jibbajibba]

It's not free in terms of time though, and the DbD guys are not a publishing house, really.  They're just people who would like to publish Amber but have regular jobs.  

Also there's an investment you have to put in for building a site to sell the books from, advertising the site, etc.  You could defray some of those costs via a site like Drive Thru RPG, but even so, you wouldn't make real money off of it without putting some cash in.

My guess is that the DbD guys had good intentions when Wujick handed the liscence off to them, but simply didn't have the time/energy/money to make the project a reality.  They've been sitting on it long enough that I doubt they even think about it all that often.  It's simply become one of those things they ment to do that will never happen.

I don't know how much they'd want to charge for the licences, but if it was low, it might be worth it for a small publishing group to buy it up.  Just based on Ambercon numbers, and a guess that at most you'd get say, 1 in 5 people who are willing to lay down money to go to Ambercon to pay say, $15 for a 2e version of the game, plus a few more people who don't go to the con, you're looking at about $10,000 in net-profit from a release of the 2e book on the internet.

Those numbers are super rough, and pessimisticly skewed, but it's best to start with that kind of pessimism when you have a market like this that hasn't been tested in decades.  It's possible you might lose your shirt, since most people can get a copy of the rules one way or another, and usually mod the hell out of them.

So realistically, what would someone be willing to pay for the licences?  You probably shouldn't pay more than $2,000.  This means you're going to make somewhere between 8 and 10k on the book, a pretty paltry return for the amount of work it would represent.  Of course you'd be hoping you could sell at least a couple more sourcebooks afterwards, netting you maybe 20k more total.  

It's something you'd do because you want to see another version of Amber out, not because you want to make money.  That pretty much puts it only in the realm of really small publishing houses, or a group of fans coming together to try and publish for the first time.

Due to the small market for Diceless games, and the fact that no Amber fiction has come out in a really really long time, it's unfortunently just not a very feasible project.  Our best hope for this happening is that somebody attached to a small publishing house becomes a huge fan of Amber.

I agree with some of this , certainly the pessimistic approach is best, but putting together a site getting it hosted etc is pretty simple and the cost of entry is tiny. What is more the Amber community would probably do most of the work for you if you asked for vollunteers (say they asked Pundit for a site parallel to this one on a profit share basis and used graphics from the game and some simple site templates). This woudl be for a re-release of 1e and that would be my first act if i owned the license. Post up the old books as PDFs for $8 a pop and sell print copies via Lulu or something. Yes the game would be ripped off and distributed and overall you would make zero profit but the point of a 1e release is just to get the game back being played and build a market for a 2e release.
You are right that the market for Diceless games is small but if you recall the heyday of the Golden Circle Web ring there were about 200 active Amber websites and the top ones were getting fairly high hit-rates (for the time and hte niche nature of the topic) this would be about '98.
I think that the web friendly nature of Amber is actually another selling point and if I released a 2e Amber game it would have a section on web based games and I would probably set up a couple of official web games kind of ripping of LFR int eh D&D space but as a series of web based instances run by volunteer GMs in a shared webspace but that might not work out practical.

[Drascus]

I agree with some of this , certainly the pessimistic approach is best, but putting together a site getting it hosted etc is pretty simple and the cost of entry is tiny. What is more the Amber community would probably do most of the work for you if you asked for vollunteers (say they asked Pundit for a site parallel to this one on a profit share basis and used graphics from the game and some simple site templates). This woudl be for a re-release of 1e and that would be my first act if i owned the license. Post up the old books as PDFs for $8 a pop and sell print copies via Lulu or something. Yes the game would be ripped off and distributed and overall you would make zero profit but the point of a 1e release is just to get the game back being played and build a market for a 2e release.
You are right that the market for Diceless games is small but if you recall the heyday of the Golden Circle Web ring there were about 200 active Amber websites and the top ones were getting fairly high hit-rates (for the time and hte niche nature of the topic) this would be about '98.
I think that the web friendly nature of Amber is actually another selling point and if I released a 2e Amber game it would have a section on web based games and I would probably set up a couple of official web games kind of ripping of LFR int eh D&D space but as a series of web based instances run by volunteer GMs in a shared webspace but that might not work out practical.

Heh, there isn't really enough profit in an enterprise like this one to share.  If you went down that road you would literally end up doing it for free.  Maybe get a meal's worth of cash out of the bargain.  Having more than 3 total peple on the project would be problematic for cash too.

The thing is, there are PDF copies of the original Amber book all over the net.  And getting people to spend cash on the old version of Amber could very well slow down sales of the new one.  Gamers don't like to buy replacement books after just a year.  Remember the outcry over D&D 3.5?  

If I had the license, what I'd do to generate buzz is build a fun, slick, web 2.0 site with links to ways to get the novels.  Show teaser shots from the book, release one Trump image of the elders per month, etc.  Make sure to get any interview I could, run a blog on the site about the progress.

I'd time the release of the book for 2 weeks after Gencon, and sell books at the con as a special 'early purchase' deal.  Anyone who pre-ordered and made it to the con could get their book, plus there would be a limited number of extra copies.  Then books would be hitting the mail 2 weeks after the con, for regular sale.

That would end up being a lot more profitable than trying to sell a PDF or book that most interested parties already have, I think.

[Qwilion]

I completely disagree I have be running my operation for 3 years and the growth the growth of pdf sales, the potential of the IPAD the very excellent Print on Demand services of LULU.com

And the real benefits that I see with Rpgnow/Rpgdrivethru's Print on Demand relationship with Lightning Source (which the costs are looking awesome).  This would allow you to do a  softback with a full color interior.

I have a business model that would make this doable even with Zelazney's estate taking 35% of net sales. (Which is the industry average for a licencee)

Steve Russell
Rite Publishing

[jibbajibba]

Heh, there isn't really enough profit in an enterprise like this one to share.  If you went down that road you would literally end up doing it for free.  Maybe get a meal's worth of cash out of the bargain.  Having more than 3 total peple on the project would be problematic for cash too.

The thing is, there are PDF copies of the original Amber book all over the net.  And getting people to spend cash on the old version of Amber could very well slow down sales of the new one.  Gamers don't like to buy replacement books after just a year.  Remember the outcry over D&D 3.5?  

If I had the license, what I'd do to generate buzz is build a fun, slick, web 2.0 site with links to ways to get the novels.  Show teaser shots from the book, release one Trump image of the elders per month, etc.  Make sure to get any interview I could, run a blog on the site about the progress.

I'd time the release of the book for 2 weeks after Gencon, and sell books at the con as a special 'early purchase' deal.  Anyone who pre-ordered and made it to the con could get their book, plus there would be a limited number of extra copies.  Then books would be hitting the mail 2 weeks after the con, for regular sale.

That would end up being a lot more profitable than trying to sell a PDF or book that most interested parties already have, I think.

Ah I knew it would never make a profit which is why I would be willing to share it for free web space
I dod think that offical pdfs or as Qwilion says some sort of print on demand service might get more interest.
I was working from a position that you have zero 2e material on day 1 and won't have anything decent for 18 months to 2 years. I was just saying that as soon as I secured the license I would get something up. All the other stuff you mention precludes the idea that there isn't some legal issue going on with a second edition. Which I had assumed was the case.

We all know that a new Amber game is going to sell 2000 copies tops. It has a generally unpopular diceless mechanic and is based on a series of obscure fantasy/scifi books from the 1970s. An Amber source books for Gurps or an amber boardgame are much more comercial propositions but that is not the point. Amber is the king of games so someone should reserrect it.

Hmm maybe we just do our own version and splat the internet with free pdfs. It's been a fan-only supported game for a dozen years why not go the whole hog.

[Drascus]

Ah I knew it would never make a profit which is why I would be willing to share it for free web space
I dod think that offical pdfs or as Qwilion says some sort of print on demand service might get more interest.
I was working from a position that you have zero 2e material on day 1 and won't have anything decent for 18 months to 2 years. I was just saying that as soon as I secured the license I would get something up. All the other stuff you mention precludes the idea that there isn't some legal issue going on with a second edition. Which I had assumed was the case.

We all know that a new Amber game is going to sell 2000 copies tops. It has a generally unpopular diceless mechanic and is based on a series of obscure fantasy/scifi books from the 1970s. An Amber source books for Gurps or an amber boardgame are much more comercial propositions but that is not the point. Amber is the king of games so someone should reserrect it.

Hmm maybe we just do our own version and splat the internet with free pdfs. It's been a fan-only supported game for a dozen years why not go the whole hog.

Even if you're offering it for free, distribution on that level is problematic for copyright law.

Also, to be honest, any version done by people who aren't being paid will either languish, like the DbD version has, or will suck.  You can't expect people to do professional quality work for free.  If the free team has standards and expects people to adhere to them, nothing gets done.  If they don't have standards...  better not to release that book.

[steelmax73]

all the good intentions in the world wont get an amber 2E book in your hands. where is DbD they are not posting in forums asking fans what they want, as far as money go's they could raise money like many new projects with Kickstarter. they are lazy ass mother fuckers with no intention of releasing the game there going to sit on it till the viability of the game being supported no longer exist. so you can dance around and hope you don't offend Do nothing Design's but your still never going to see the book in your hand.

[Qwilion]

where is DbD they are not posting in forums asking fans what they want, as far as money go's they could raise money like many new projects with Kickstarter. they are lazy ass mother fuckers with no intention of releasing the game there going to sit on it till the viability of the game being supported no longer exist. so you can dance around and hope you don't offend Do nothing Design's but your still never going to see the book in your hand.

Sigh, everything that I have learned about Diceless by Design says that they were graciously given the licence for the game by Eric Wujek, but that it came with the huge caveat of Mr. Zelazney's estate pushing for payment (my guess would be something burdensome), so DbD keeps their head low, (on the advice of their attorney most likely), and slowly gathers in money from the sale of PDFs.

And no you can't go using kickstarter because you talking about a licenced property that you don't have clear ownership of, which violates kickstarters  user agreement, you would have to negotiate with Mr Zelazney's estate BEFORE you could start a Patronage or Ransom model project like that, Diceless By Design AT BEST only owns the Rights to the 1st Editon of the Game, ANY use of Zelazney's trademarks would require permission from the copyright and trademark holders.

Its not about offending its about getting sued, for thousands of dollars and LOSING.

Do I wish they were more public about the problems yes, but they don't OWE you a second edition, if you want a second edition so bad YOU PAY FOR A LICENCE FOR A NEW RPG based on amber.  

So yeah...

[jibbajibba]

....so DbD keeps their head low, (on the advice of their attorney most likely), and slowly gathers in money from the sale of PDFs.

are they selling pdfs?