An Amber-in-all-but-name Game?

[Drascus]

@Drascus: I'm with jibbajibba on this one. Why? Because your historical argument appears to be based around medieval england/europe. If you go back a bit further and consider the ancient greeks, or the roman empire, or the chinese dynasties, or ... and then look at the 'golden age' of those empires you will see a lot more consequence. And Amber ... all cities are but shadows of it. Thus I see Amber as a place having definite consequence within itself. Outside of Amber of course, all bets are off.

Naturally if Oberon is no longer in charge, then once again, all bets are off. Thus the setting is highly dependent on each individual campaign. Consider for example if Dworkin's madness were to spread to all of his descendants ...

Well Amber is pretty clearly a city with medieval culture, as far as technology, men wearing broadswords in public, etc, with some modifications probably due to their contact with shadow that makes some of their attitudes a couple of hundred years more progressive.

Either way, it's intensely European in nature.  The names are all Norman, Oberon is an allegory for Henry VIII, they have knights and European nobility and titles and all of that stuff.

I think it's hard to argue that it's anything but a European setting.  Zelazney did his research, all his details are very authentic.  Including the fact that the nobility is never hassled for a legal matter until someone somewhat near their social class can bring suit.  The only Amberites we ever hear of with legal entanglements are those who have some kind of issue with a head of state.  Anything less and nobody cares.

[Qwilion]

not to mention all the shakespear quotes

[jibbajibba]

Well Amber is pretty clearly a city with medieval culture, as far as technology, men wearing broadswords in public, etc, with some modifications probably due to their contact with shadow that makes some of their attitudes a couple of hundred years more progressive.

Either way, it's intensely European in nature.  The names are all Norman, Oberon is an allegory for Henry VIII, they have knights and European nobility and titles and all of that stuff.

I think it's hard to argue that it's anything but a European setting.  Zelazney did his research, all his details are very authentic.  Including the fact that the nobility is never hassled for a legal matter until someone somewhat near their social class can bring suit.  The only Amberites we ever hear of with legal entanglements are those who have some kind of issue with a head of state.  Anything less and nobody cares.

You are still missing the thrust of my argument , probably my fault for not being clear enough.
Amber is not a European city it is Amber a fictional city created by Zelazny. It really doesn't matter that Zelazny researched or not (having read about how why and when the books were written I would actually say research was minimal) what we end up with is a fully realised world with its own internal logic. If you really think that serious crimes against the population of Amber would go unpunished then I don't think you got the same tone from the book that I did.
Zelazny as an author is spare of detail that is irrelevant his focus is character, dialogue and plot. He isn't going to discuss the Amber legal system apart from how it  relates to the sucession and some hints at Bill's trade treaties later on, because it doesn't add to the plot. This does not mean that there is no law.
It is my impression from the books that what you do in Shadow is fine but what you do in Amber matters and it matters all the way down to how you treat the locals. Ask yourself if you can imagine a scene where Brand is exiled from Amber by Oberon for stabbing someone in the back in a tavern? A scene where Gerrard investigates a rape of a serving wench and ends up arranging for the responsible party to be exiled for 10 years and pay reparations. I think those things can totally happen and would be in keeping with the books entirely.

Having said that if you want to play your Amber in another way then go ahead. If you don't think that there are laws in place to protect the people from the Amberites then more power to you. I don't think it would play like the Amber I imagine though.

[boulet]

As Jibbajibba said, Zelazny gave a very vague idea of the judicial system in Amber. At least we know that there is a dungeon and it's not impossible to end up there, member of the family or not.

What is clear is the theme of increasing moral fiber all along Corwin's cycle. Corwin gets older and wiser and tends more and more to keep his impulsive and violent reactions at bay. It's not exactly the same thing as the question of Amberites impunity but it sheds some light. OTOH if I remember well Luke wasn't prosecuted for the bomb attack at Caine's funeral for instance. So there are indeed gray zones where a prince would be excused by vendetta justifications.

I wouldn't enjoy playing or running an Amber game where Amberites could get away with the most immoral acts and portray sadistic beasts. That's not what I'm there for. Grafting stereotypes about the "dark ages" (which is Enlightenment propaganda more or less) onto this world of fiction isn't helping. Medieval justice is arcane to us because of the complexity of its scope (different rules for different people), the role of religion in its process (trial by ordeal for instance) and its plain weirdness (trial of animals anyone?). I would say it was even more arcane to Zelazny who depicted a quite Americanized vision of "medieval" Amber. Btw droit de cuissage is propaganda too.

At the end of the day it's the GM, with players input too I hope, who defines if consequences are to be applied and for what crimes. If one wants a Machiavellian feel to the game, then yeah, better limit judicial consequences to the minimum.

[Croaker]

Also note how, at least in merlin's circle, diplomatic relations with and within the golden circle are important to Amberites.

[Drascus]

You are still missing the thrust of my argument , probably my fault for not being clear enough.
Amber is not a European city it is Amber a fictional city created by Zelazny. It really doesn't matter that Zelazny researched or not (having read about how why and when the books were written I would actually say research was minimal) what we end up with is a fully realised world with its own internal logic. If you really think that serious crimes against the population of Amber would go unpunished then I don't think you got the same tone from the book that I did.
Zelazny as an author is spare of detail that is irrelevant his focus is character, dialogue and plot. He isn't going to discuss the Amber legal system apart from how it  relates to the sucession and some hints at Bill's trade treaties later on, because it doesn't add to the plot. This does not mean that there is no law.
It is my impression from the books that what you do in Shadow is fine but what you do in Amber matters and it matters all the way down to how you treat the locals. Ask yourself if you can imagine a scene where Brand is exiled from Amber by Oberon for stabbing someone in the back in a tavern? A scene where Gerrard investigates a rape of a serving wench and ends up arranging for the responsible party to be exiled for 10 years and pay reparations. I think those things can totally happen and would be in keeping with the books entirely.

Having said that if you want to play your Amber in another way then go ahead. If you don't think that there are laws in place to protect the people from the Amberites then more power to you. I don't think it would play like the Amber I imagine though.

I honestly can't imagine either of the scenarios you describe.  I can easily imagine them if the people in question were important.  Important people got to bring cases before the court all the time, as we saw in the Merlin saga.  But Brand exiled by Oberon for stabbing a random person?  Why?  Oberon casually tortured a young man who was stealing out of hunger.  Was going to kill him after the torture, until Corwin convinced him to let the kid go.  

Gerard investigates the rape of a serving wench?  Why?  What's his motivation for doing this?  I don't think we ever saw him do anything of the sort.  If you were going to pick an Amberite to do that, your only possibly logical one would be Benedict, and if he knew the wench beforehand then we're back to the 'she had powerful friends'.

Yes yes, Amber is a fictional world.  But what makes a fictional world compelling is when it rings true, and that is most often done by using real world cultures and history as a template for your world.  Even Tolkien, who was crazy intense about world creation, did this very thing.  We can recognize many of the middle earth cultures and they resonate with us because of that.

The same goes for Amber.  Zelazney may not have stuffed his work with details but what details make it in are always spot on, researched, authentic.  Without that Amber would be a mess.  It is Zelazney's ability to convey a compelling world with just a few brush strokes that make Amber work as well as it does.  But to do it that way, you have to use those brush strokes to describe something the reader already knows.

In this case, it was medieval / renaissance France/England.  I mean, it seems pretty obviously to permeate every part of the book.  The casual treatment of shadow people?  That is noble treatment of commoners taken to its logical extreme.  

Why the book would make the point about the little people's lives being worthless early on, and then give 20th century 1st world rights to peasants in a feudal state is beyond me.  

My guess is that you really like the book's characters, especially Gerard, whom you keep referring to as this agent of justice, and don't want them to be bad people.  But they are bad people.  It's possible that they can't help it, because of their situation, and their father, but they are not good people.  Gerard is certainly no saint.  He's one of the better of the bunch, but he's a bully and he's got a temper like the rest of them.

[Drascus]

As Jibbajibba said, Zelazny gave a very vague idea of the judicial system in Amber. At least we know that there is a dungeon and it's not impossible to end up there, member of the family or not.

What is clear is the theme of increasing moral fiber all along Corwin's cycle. Corwin gets older and wiser and tends more and more to keep his impulsive and violent reactions at bay. It's not exactly the same thing as the question of Amberites impunity but it sheds some light. OTOH if I remember well Luke wasn't prosecuted for the bomb attack at Caine's funeral for instance. So there are indeed gray zones where a prince would be excused by vendetta justifications.

I wouldn't enjoy playing or running an Amber game where Amberites could get away with the most immoral acts and portray sadistic beasts. That's not what I'm there for. Grafting stereotypes about the "dark ages" (which is Enlightenment propaganda more or less) onto this world of fiction isn't helping. Medieval justice is arcane to us because of the complexity of its scope (different rules for different people), the role of religion in its process (trial by ordeal for instance) and its plain weirdness (trial of animals anyone?). I would say it was even more arcane to Zelazny who depicted a quite Americanized vision of "medieval" Amber. Btw droit de cuissage is propaganda too.

At the end of the day it's the GM, with players input too I hope, who defines if consequences are to be applied and for what crimes. If one wants a Machiavellian feel to the game, then yeah, better limit judicial consequences to the minimum.

Players in my games don't act like immoral beasts, and I don't play amberites that way.  But it's not fear of the law that drives that kind of behavior, it's usually concern for the family's image.

I realize that nobles had SOME consequences when they perpetrated acts of violence against their subjects, but they were very light.  Usually the noble paid some kind of fine that was no hardship for them.  That's not exactly a deterrent.  The Church was also a mitigating influence, as most of the acts we've described are sins.  

Amber doesn't have a powerful Church to push for more moral acts, and the nobility has far more power than European nobles ever did.  It seems completely impossible that Amberites engage in casual torture and murder in Shadow, and then become completely different people when they reach Amber.  

That they tone things down a little for the sake of appearances?  That I can easily believe.  Acts that might have been done right out in public would now be done behind closed doors.  But more than that seems to be stretching belief.

[RPGPundit]

I think you are conflating the book and the RPG. This is bound to happen I mean one is devised to replicate the other, however the family is not so important.

No. I disagree. The Family is an essential aspect of Amber play. It is all about the connections between you and the other characters. If it wasn't for that connection, you'd all just be murdering each other and that'd be that.

What is important is that you are one of a limited group with power. I for one never trust anyone even if we are in a life or death struggle to save the Amberverse from certain destruction.

No. I think it'd be easier to run an Amber game where the PCs were mortal but a similar dysfunctional family, than one where they were godlike beings but had no connection to each other.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

I don't play the Erik Wujik version of the game.  I don't use his versions of the elder amberites.  For instance, when I portray Benedict he's not a mute.

I try to adhere as closely as possible to the universe in the books, finding it a lot more interesting and authentic feeling.  The ADRPG is based on Erik's decade old Amber game where all kinds of crazy stuff had happened.  That's great, and all, but I was never present for any of those sessions, so the inside jokes presented in the rule book mean nothing to me.

I take my setting info from the novels, and to some extent from the sourcebook that Zelazney approved.  We used to use the rules from the ADRPG but honestly they're not very good if you're using the setting from the novels, so we had to pretty much re-write those entirely.  

Obviously that puts me in the minority on this forum, but I still think that the family aspect adds something unique for Amber, that most people don't even realize.  It changes everything when your antagonist isn't Count Strahd but is instead Uncle Brand.  Both are cruel and capricious villains with mystic powers and a ton of personality, but killing one of them will have family repercussions and the other will not.  It's something that's always got to be in the back of your character's head.

I think you're absolutely right about just about everything, except in your analysis that somehow the Family issue didn't matter to Erick. I think it may not matter to Jibba, but to Erick it mattered so much that he devotes extensive amounts of GM advice to how to handle it.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

Why would an Amberite have to face consequences for cutting up a guard unless someone in the power structure had a grudge against them?  I mean, Amber is based on a medieval / high medieval culture, and Amberites are of the royal blood.

In that kind of culture, royals could literally get away with murder.  Something as simple as assaulting a lesser, especially with the distinction between Amberites and shadow people...  I don't see why anyone would care.  

Killing someone who had powerful friends, sure, that's bad.  Assaulting some nameless guard?  I don't see it.  I'd expect your average Amberite male to be doing that kind of thing all the time, raping scullery maids, etc.  

The idea that murder applies to powerless people is actually fairly new, historically.

It depends. If killing a guard would be seen as disrespecting King Oberon your dad, then yes you could get into a lot of trouble for it. Its not just about powerful friends, after all, its about what powerful people consider "their property".

RPGPundit

[Drascus]

It depends. If killing a guard would be seen as disrespecting King Oberon your dad, then yes you could get into a lot of trouble for it. Its not just about powerful friends, after all, its about what powerful people consider "their property".

RPGPundit

Oh, absolutely.  But in that case the offense is to an Amberite, and not to the idea of the rights of the individual, or the guard himself.  It's because you messed with Oberon's guards, and thus Oberon himself.

[Drascus]

I think you're absolutely right about just about everything, except in your analysis that somehow the Family issue didn't matter to Erick. I think it may not matter to Jibba, but to Erick it mattered so much that he devotes extensive amounts of GM advice to how to handle it.

RPGPundit

Oh, the importance of family was one of the things Erik got right for sure.  There is nothing wrong with Erik's game, it's a good game and I enjoyed it when I still played his version of Amber.  

But his version of Amber is the one that evolved after years of play in his personal version of the Amber universe.  His NPC versions and rules reflect this.  If you were to jump into one of my games, you'd run into all kinds of new NPCs (the family has expanded a few generations) and weird powers have cropped up, etc.  

It has also become something different than what the books portray, you can't avoid that with an Amber game.  It's just that when we realized that we were creation our own version of Amber, we decided to do a hard reset, go back to the books as much as possible, and then branch out.  If we'd done that from Erik's version, which was already years divirged, we'd have ended up in RIFTS or something.  

[jibbajibba]

Okay I can see we aren't going to agree on a lot of stuff but lets focus ont eh positive instead and go back to the OP.
If you were looking at creating and Amberesque game that could avoid the copywright restrictions, which is where we started, what elements of the system would you need to keep. It seems to me that Dracus and Pundit are saying the game woudl have to based round a family as that is a key to the game. This si where I disagree. I think you need to replicate the effect that the family has on the narative. So the family serves a couple of functions. It links the cast, prevents them from openly murdering each other dispite some pretty open and hostile relationships and it acts as a key to access a shared power, The Pattern.
Now it is my contention that you coudl replicate all of these elements without a family. You could get the same feel if the Amberites were members of a religious sect, or a sorcerous College, you might even get it if they were members of a ruling cast that had some sort of ties, hey they could even be a race of immortal aliens diposited on Earth vowed to eventually meet and slay eay other in a cataclysmic Battle Royale.
this is where i am coming from when I say the family is not important. I am saying that you need to put the conditions in place that Zelazny achieves via a family but you have alternates.

So some ideas for an alternate Amberesque game might be.

• The Players are members of a Sorcerous Guild that rules the Universe. They are based in The Eternal City and due to their arcane training they can access other planes of existance. Their Order is ruled by the Patricarch whilst the others vie for political control. Beyond the confines of the planes they control the universe is beset with demonis focrcs who's aim is to plunge everything back into nothing. Some of the The Guild have communications with these demons attempting to use their power to furhter their own ambitions.
• The Players are members of the Nobility of the Kingdom of Berma. The kingdom is wide and ancient with numerous small principalities and duchies. Each player is a member of one of the various noble houses all seeking to further they own ambition. The King holds these factions together through an iron will, political manipulation and the promise of true Power for he controls initiation to a powerful arcane force that can imbue the initiate with a range of powers.
• etc etc

[RPGPundit]

Well, a family is part of a group. And what we're talking about here are Group Dynamics. However, a Family Group have some particular qualities.  Other organizations may have some of those similar qualities, and some different qualities. It won't be the same game if you're running Amber with a "guild" instead of a Family. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do this, it just won't be the same.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

Well, a family is part of a group. And what we're talking about here are Group Dynamics. However, a Family Group have some particular qualities.  Other organizations may have some of those similar qualities, and some different qualities. It won't be the same game if you're running Amber with a "guild" instead of a Family. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do this, it just won't be the same.

RPGPundit

But the aim of the thread I thought was to see if an amber game could be created that kept the gems of the ADRPG but was different enough to avoid a copyright infringement. These ideas I think would work in that context, tied to a diceless mechanic and an attribute auction.