An Amber-in-all-but-name Game?

[Drascus]

You don't trust no one though.  You have to trust people for a while.  You have to trust some people while mistrusting others.  You form cabals.  The whole basis for forgiving these insults and later working with someone is not just the mutual advantage but also the fact that you're family.  

The family aspect in Amber is HUGE.  It drives so many things, from the conflicts to the way they get resolved.  People form real attachments in Amber.

I mean, Random was not a fan of Corwin.  He's terrified when he hears Corwin's voice on the phone on Shadow Earth.  But he goes along with it because he thinks he has to.  As he does, he eventually discovers that his brother Corwin is vulnerable.  Corwin puts trust in Random, and helps him out, while getting help from his runt of the litter brother.  Corwin, the brother who was the big man on campus.

Corwin goes up against Eric, and gets taken out.  This affects Random so strongly, that he decides to take a shot at Eric with a crossbow!  That's not the sign of a man who coldly manipulated Corwin and was manipulated in return.  That's a man who found a connection with a brother and was outraged when his brother got hurt.

That kind of stuff is amazing.  I had a character who watched her sister literally get burned to death by another sorceress in the family.  My character NEVER forgave that woman. Was incapable of being in the same room with her.  But she couldn't kill her, because it only would have made things worse for my character's mother, etc.  The family connections forced a whole series of interactions and plots that never would have happened otherwise.

Any character with the power of Amber can destroy someone, but the point is, sometimes you just can't make the decision to try that.  And that keeps the balls in the air.  It keeps the NPCs alive without needing to throw some kind of deus ex machina in.  It keeps you talking to the badguys and interacting with them.

It's something you never get in games where the badguys are monsters, or at least people you'd never have a conversation with.

[jibbajibba]

You don't trust no one though.  You have to trust people for a while.  You have to trust some people while mistrusting others.  You form cabals.  The whole basis for forgiving these insults and later working with someone is not just the mutual advantage but also the fact that you're family.  

The family aspect in Amber is HUGE.  It drives so many things, from the conflicts to the way they get resolved.  People form real attachments in Amber.

I mean, Random was not a fan of Corwin.  He's terrified when he hears Corwin's voice on the phone on Shadow Earth.  But he goes along with it because he thinks he has to.  As he does, he eventually discovers that his brother Corwin is vulnerable.  Corwin puts trust in Random, and helps him out, while getting help from his runt of the litter brother.  Corwin, the brother who was the big man on campus.

Corwin goes up against Eric, and gets taken out.  This affects Random so strongly, that he decides to take a shot at Eric with a crossbow!  That's not the sign of a man who coldly manipulated Corwin and was manipulated in return.  That's a man who found a connection with a brother and was outraged when his brother got hurt.

That kind of stuff is amazing.  I had a character who watched her sister literally get burned to death by another sorceress in the family.  My character NEVER forgave that woman. Was incapable of being in the same room with her.  But she couldn't kill her, because it only would have made things worse for my character's mother, etc.  The family connections forced a whole series of interactions and plots that never would have happened otherwise.

Any character with the power of Amber can destroy someone, but the point is, sometimes you just can't make the decision to try that.  And that keeps the balls in the air.  It keeps the NPCs alive without needing to throw some kind of deus ex machina in.  It keeps you talking to the badguys and interacting with them.

It's something you never get in games where the badguys are monsters, or at least people you'd never have a conversation with.

I think you are conflating the book and the RPG. This is bound to happen I mean one is devised to replicate the other, however the family is not so important. What is important is that you are one of a limited group with power. I for one never trust anyone even if we are in a life or death struggle to save the Amberverse from certain destruction. I never trust them because I know that I have already weighed up the benefits of slitting their throat whist they slept and only just decided they are more use to me alive, it would be trite of me not to expect that they haven't done the same thing. In fact its a compliment as they think I have have use but an dangerous to merit eliminating.
So you could run 'Amber' on a ship full of pirates and it would play like Treasure Island a bunch of powerful individuals on a ship force together by circumstance but never trusting each other. No need for family.

I agree that the 'monsters' having personality is a twist but I do that in all my games from D&D to Cyberpunk so I don't think its a unique feature.

[Drascus]

I think you are conflating the book and the RPG. This is bound to happen I mean one is devised to replicate the other, however the family is not so important. What is important is that you are one of a limited group with power. I for one never trust anyone even if we are in a life or death struggle to save the Amberverse from certain destruction. I never trust them because I know that I have already weighed up the benefits of slitting their throat whist they slept and only just decided they are more use to me alive, it would be trite of me not to expect that they haven't done the same thing. In fact its a compliment as they think I have have use but an dangerous to merit eliminating.
So you could run 'Amber' on a ship full of pirates and it would play like Treasure Island a bunch of powerful individuals on a ship force together by circumstance but never trusting each other. No need for family.

I agree that the 'monsters' having personality is a twist but I do that in all my games from D&D to Cyberpunk so I don't think its a unique feature.

I don't play the Erik Wujik version of the game.  I don't use his versions of the elder amberites.  For instance, when I portray Benedict he's not a mute.

I try to adhere as closely as possible to the universe in the books, finding it a lot more interesting and authentic feeling.  The ADRPG is based on Erik's decade old Amber game where all kinds of crazy stuff had happened.  That's great, and all, but I was never present for any of those sessions, so the inside jokes presented in the rule book mean nothing to me.

I take my setting info from the novels, and to some extent from the sourcebook that Zelazney approved.  We used to use the rules from the ADRPG but honestly they're not very good if you're using the setting from the novels, so we had to pretty much re-write those entirely.  

Obviously that puts me in the minority on this forum, but I still think that the family aspect adds something unique for Amber, that most people don't even realize.  It changes everything when your antagonist isn't Count Strahd but is instead Uncle Brand.  Both are cruel and capricious villains with mystic powers and a ton of personality, but killing one of them will have family repercussions and the other will not.  It's something that's always got to be in the back of your character's head.

[jibbajibba]

I don't play the Erik Wujik version of the game.  I don't use his versions of the elder amberites.  For instance, when I portray Benedict he's not a mute.

I try to adhere as closely as possible to the universe in the books, finding it a lot more interesting and authentic feeling.  The ADRPG is based on Erik's decade old Amber game where all kinds of crazy stuff had happened.  That's great, and all, but I was never present for any of those sessions, so the inside jokes presented in the rule book mean nothing to me.

I take my setting info from the novels, and to some extent from the sourcebook that Zelazney approved.  We used to use the rules from the ADRPG but honestly they're not very good if you're using the setting from the novels, so we had to pretty much re-write those entirely.  

Obviously that puts me in the minority on this forum, but I still think that the family aspect adds something unique for Amber, that most people don't even realize.  It changes everything when your antagonist isn't Count Strahd but is instead Uncle Brand.  Both are cruel and capricious villains with mystic powers and a ton of personality, but killing one of them will have family repercussions and the other will not.  It's something that's always got to be in the back of your character's head.

That may be where our difference spring from. I never use any of the elder Amberites apart from Oberon and Dworkin. This removes me having a bunch of uber powerful NPCs that could just turn up and save the day but also removes a factor of you know and love this character from a book and so you won't kill them.
So my 'baddie' may well be Count Strahd, but he will be your brother

Repercussions for actions are something that a lot of RPG games remove but I tend to add them in. So if you kill a guard outside the Elven palace that will lead to a murder investigation. Some systems have this included by default, oWoD for example, but often the lack of any sort of law enforcement or leagal frame work in worlds as varied as Cp2020 or Amber is an annoyance to me. There is a police force in Amber and people that cut up palace guards at royal balls will have to face the consequences

[Qwilion]

Using my vast industry contracts, the word I have gotten through the grapevine is that there is "The problem is with Zelazney's Estate, not Diceless by Design, whose lawyers have advised Dbd not to make any public comments'"

That is pure here say, I have no proof, and I will not reveal my source, but I believe it to be true.

[Drascus]

That may be where our difference spring from. I never use any of the elder Amberites apart from Oberon and Dworkin. This removes me having a bunch of uber powerful NPCs that could just turn up and save the day but also removes a factor of you know and love this character from a book and so you won't kill them.
So my 'baddie' may well be Count Strahd, but he will be your brother

Repercussions for actions are something that a lot of RPG games remove but I tend to add them in. So if you kill a guard outside the Elven palace that will lead to a murder investigation. Some systems have this included by default, oWoD for example, but often the lack of any sort of law enforcement or leagal frame work in worlds as varied as Cp2020 or Amber is an annoyance to me. There is a police force in Amber and people that cut up palace guards at royal balls will have to face the consequences

Why would an Amberite have to face consequences for cutting up a guard unless someone in the power structure had a grudge against them?  I mean, Amber is based on a medieval / high medieval culture, and Amberites are of the royal blood.

In that kind of culture, royals could literally get away with murder.  Something as simple as assaulting a lesser, especially with the distinction between Amberites and shadow people...  I don't see why anyone would care.  

Killing someone who had powerful friends, sure, that's bad.  Assaulting some nameless guard?  I don't see it.  I'd expect your average Amberite male to be doing that kind of thing all the time, raping scullery maids, etc.  

The idea that murder applies to powerless people is actually fairly new, historically.

[jibbajibba]

Why would an Amberite have to face consequences for cutting up a guard unless someone in the power structure had a grudge against them?  I mean, Amber is based on a medieval / high medieval culture, and Amberites are of the royal blood.

In that kind of culture, royals could literally get away with murder.  Something as simple as assaulting a lesser, especially with the distinction between Amberites and shadow people...  I don't see why anyone would care.  

Killing someone who had powerful friends, sure, that's bad.  Assaulting some nameless guard?  I don't see it.  I'd expect your average Amberite male to be doing that kind of thing all the time, raping scullery maids, etc.  

The idea that murder applies to powerless people is actually fairly new, historically.

See I don't think that matches the books at all, more importantly I was actually refering to a scene that just happened in out PBEM , sorry an in joke
But if Corwin wandered round Amber killing people in bars for no reason then there would be consequences. They might be Gerrard beating the shit out of him or Eric getting a passe of blokes together and throwing him in cell or some powerful friends of the dead folks lining hiom up in a dark alley. The idea that there are no consequences for crime cos you are a royal Amberite is bollocks

[Drascus]

See I don't think that matches the books at all, more importantly I was actually refering to a scene that just happened in out PBEM , sorry an in joke
But if Corwin wandered round Amber killing people in bars for no reason then there would be consequences. They might be Gerrard beating the shit out of him or Eric getting a passe of blokes together and throwing him in cell or some powerful friends of the dead folks lining hiom up in a dark alley. The idea that there are no consequences for crime cos you are a royal Amberite is bollocks

I have no idea where you're getting that notion.  Why in the world would anyone come down on Corwin for beating up people with no political ties in bars?

Random was in trouble in Rebma not for being a deadbeat dad but because the woman he loved and left had high status in that court.  

When Corwin first gets back to Amber, and that servant in the library (D-something) is pleased to see him back, the servant runs in fear from Eric, recognizing that he has endangered his life by showing support for Corwin where Eric could see.

Oberon raped a head of state, and forced her to bear the child of that assault.

Merlin gets into a fight in Amber, kills several men who attacked him, there's no murder investigation, he is never asked to prove that he acted in self defense or even asked about the incident at all by any authorities.

Random is so used to being able to casually kill people that he fires a gun at a man for yelling at Corwin. Corwin, upon remembering a little, considers that to be normal behavior but decides it was his place to judge the man.

To be an Amberite is to live a consequence-free life when it comes to the lives of non-amberites.  The only exception is when that non-amberite has enough power to make a fuss, or connections to people with enough power, usually other Amberites, but apparently Moire has a bit of clout.

[jibbajibba]

I have no idea where you're getting that notion.  Why in the world would anyone come down on Corwin for beating up people with no political ties in bars?

Random was in trouble in Rebma not for being a deadbeat dad but because the woman he loved and left had high status in that court.  

When Corwin first gets back to Amber, and that servant in the library (D-something) is pleased to see him back, the servant runs in fear from Eric, recognizing that he has endangered his life by showing support for Corwin where Eric could see.

Oberon raped a head of state, and forced her to bear the child of that assault.

Merlin gets into a fight in Amber, kills several men who attacked him, there's no murder investigation, he is never asked to prove that he acted in self defense or even asked about the incident at all by any authorities.

Random is so used to being able to casually kill people that he fires a gun at a man for yelling at Corwin. Corwin, upon remembering a little, considers that to be normal behavior but decides it was his place to judge the man.

To be an Amberite is to live a consequence-free life when it comes to the lives of non-amberites.  The only exception is when that non-amberite has enough power to make a fuss, or connections to people with enough power, usually other Amberites, but apparently Moire has a bit of clout.

Well I did say kill. A minor infraction, a bar fight no issue.The Rape thing you refer to is a different case. If an Amberite rapes a serving wench and no one sees, or admits to seeing they will get away with it no doubt, but if Corwin grabbed a serving girl at a party and raped her in full view of the room he would be punished, by Oberon, Eric Gerrard or someone.

Out of Amber it's different. The man on the road is just a bug to be crushed under foot but notice what Random says at that point, 'We will not pass this way again" the implication is that if he was hanging about there would be consequences.

The Martin issue is dubious but I think there would have been an off camera investigation. Gaurds turn up what happened here barman says they atacked Prince Merlin end of.

I really don't think that Amber is a consequence free zone. Now doesn't mean that you can't play it that way I think that a kingdom where Brand was king would be far closer to the Amber you describe. Hey its your Amberverse, knock yourself out

[Drascus]

Well I did say kill. A minor infraction, a bar fight no issue.The Rape thing you refer to is a different case. If an Amberite rapes a serving wench and no one sees, or admits to seeing they will get away with it no doubt, but if Corwin grabbed a serving girl at a party and raped her in full view of the room he would be punished, by Oberon, Eric Gerrard or someone.

Out of Amber it's different. The man on the road is just a bug to be crushed under foot but notice what Random says at that point, 'We will not pass this way again" the implication is that if he was hanging about there would be consequences.

The Martin issue is dubious but I think there would have been an off camera investigation. Gaurds turn up what happened here barman says they atacked Prince Merlin end of.

I really don't think that Amber is a consequence free zone. Now doesn't mean that you can't play it that way I think that a kingdom where Brand was king would be far closer to the Amber you describe. Hey its your Amberverse, knock yourself out

Raping a girl at the actual party would be more of a problem for interrupting the party than raping the girl.  If an Amberite pulls a serving girl away from the party, has his way with her, and later she complains to someone in authority that she was attacked, she'd be ignored.

Even your example of what probably happened off-screen with Merlin is telling.  The guards find out that Merlin did the killing, and that's the end of the story because no-one is going to bother Corwin's son with a little matter like some dead men who aren't being claimed as anyone's friend.

There are consequences in Amber, but those consequences come from upsetting or hurting other Amberites, not shadow people.  Killing an Amberite's favored servant, or the king's valuable counselor is a crime because it causes a problem for an Amberite.  Disrupting a party with sexual assault is a problem because Amberites want to have nice parties that don't get interrupted by that kind of thing.  

Thus it can be pretty dangerous to attack the wrong courtier, if that person happens to be useful to the King.  Unicorn help you if you were to say, assault Oberon's current favorite mistress.  

It's just part of the enormous separation between Amberites and regular people.  Not only do you have the Royal / Common separation that existed historically, but Amberites also view those people as disposable.  After all, there's an infinite supply.  So as long as no Amberite will be upset, do whatever you want to them.

[jibbajibba]

Raping a girl at the actual party would be more of a problem for interrupting the party than raping the girl.  If an Amberite pulls a serving girl away from the party, has his way with her, and later she complains to someone in authority that she was attacked, she'd be ignored.

Even your example of what probably happened off-screen with Merlin is telling.  The guards find out that Merlin did the killing, and that's the end of the story because no-one is going to bother Corwin's son with a little matter like some dead men who aren't being claimed as anyone's friend.

There are consequences in Amber, but those consequences come from upsetting or hurting other Amberites, not shadow people.  Killing an Amberite's favored servant, or the king's valuable counselor is a crime because it causes a problem for an Amberite.  Disrupting a party with sexual assault is a problem because Amberites want to have nice parties that don't get interrupted by that kind of thing.  

Thus it can be pretty dangerous to attack the wrong courtier, if that person happens to be useful to the King.  Unicorn help you if you were to say, assault Oberon's current favorite mistress.  

It's just part of the enormous separation between Amberites and regular people.  Not only do you have the Royal / Common separation that existed historically, but Amberites also view those people as disposable.  After all, there's an infinite supply.  So as long as no Amberite will be upset, do whatever you want to them.

Does it really read that way to you? Really? I find that quite odd.

Show of hands who thinks in Amber there should be no consequences for Amberites doing whatever they like to anyone not family.

[Drascus]

Does it really read that way to you? Really? I find that quite odd.

Show of hands who thinks in Amber there should be no consequences for Amberites doing whatever they like to anyone not family.

You realize that the notion of people having rights just because they are people is a really new one in historical terms, right?  It's not a medieval idea at all.

That's why things like the Declaration of Independence and similar documents are really big deals.  Murdering a hobo is a crime?  Revolutionary idea at one point in history.  One that we now find indispensable, but it was not always obvious.  

Might and political power quite often made right, as in the more politically powerful person was literally in the legal and moral right, as long as the power gap between their victim and themselves was great enough.

Heck, part of the reason that people are often disgusted by international politics is that countries still play by those ancient rules because there is no central authority figure strong enough to make them behave.  International politics are very Hobbsian, and so out of step with our modern values that it's very easy to get outraged over them.

But that's how it used to be for everyone.  A poor farmer would get something taken by the rich burgher, and if he was dumb enough to go to the local law he'd be laughed at.  "He owns this town, we're not arresting him.  Get out of here."

[jibbajibba]

You realize that the notion of people having rights just because they are people is a really new one in historical terms, right?  It's not a medieval idea at all.

That's why things like the Declaration of Independence and similar documents are really big deals.  Murdering a hobo is a crime?  Revolutionary idea at one point in history.  One that we now find indispensable, but it was not always obvious.  

Might and political power quite often made right, as in the more politically powerful person was literally in the legal and moral right, as long as the power gap between their victim and themselves was great enough.

Heck, part of the reason that people are often disgusted by international politics is that countries still play by those ancient rules because there is no central authority figure strong enough to make them behave.  International politics are very Hobbsian, and so out of step with our modern values that it's very easy to get outraged over them.

But that's how it used to be for everyone.  A poor farmer would get something taken by the rich burgher, and if he was dumb enough to go to the local law he'd be laughed at.  "He owns this town, we're not arresting him.  Get out of here."

Um ... so ? Amber isn't a medieval town it's a town in a series of novels by Roger Zelazny. I have read said books on several occassions and really can't recognise the kingdom you are describing (as an aside Amber always felt more Renaisssance than Medieval maybe that is just me or that picture of Random any ways ) but I am totally prepared to listen to other opinions and take a consensus of what everyone thinks. I have been wrong before, well once, well I say wrong I like to think of it as misinterpreted

[Drascus]

Um ... so ? Amber isn't a medieval town it's a town in a series of novels by Roger Zelazny. I have read said books on several occassions and really can't recognise the kingdom you are describing (as an aside Amber always felt more Renaisssance than Medieval maybe that is just me or that picture of Random any ways ) but I am totally prepared to listen to other opinions and take a consensus of what everyone thinks. I have been wrong before, well once, well I say wrong I like to think of it as misinterpreted

Even during the Renaissance such ideas persisted.  I mean, the enlightenment did a lot to help the little guy, but you still had to have money or power or something to get a fair shake.

[Stormwind]

@Drascus: I'm with jibbajibba on this one. Why? Because your historical argument appears to be based around medieval england/europe. If you go back a bit further and consider the ancient greeks, or the roman empire, or the chinese dynasties, or ... and then look at the 'golden age' of those empires you will see a lot more consequence. And Amber ... all cities are but shadows of it. Thus I see Amber as a place having definite consequence within itself. Outside of Amber of course, all bets are off.

Naturally if Oberon is no longer in charge, then once again, all bets are off. Thus the setting is highly dependent on each individual campaign. Consider for example if Dworkin's madness were to spread to all of his descendants ...