Amber without the Pattern or the Logrus

[Nihilistic Mind]

Continuing my train of thought from another thread, I think this is worth looking into a new idea more seriously.
Especially since Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, Lords of Olympus, and now (potentially) Blood & Shadow are going to come out in quick successions, and hopefully revive the interest in all things Amber.

I'm not sure how any of the games will truly end up handling the powers, or lack of powers, since they seem so linked to the Amber setting itself, but I, for one, am interested in running one or all of these games and use the games while adapting the Amber setting to fit what is being presented.

I have come to appreciate the following metaphysical, philosophical questions that inevitably arise from such an endeavor (especially since I'm not sure how those games will handle things, being NOT AMBER and their own thing, but potentially used to run/play Amber campaigns).

Anyhow (sorry for the introductory musings), what do you think would happen to the Amber universe, the Amberites, the Chaosians, all of Shadow, if there wasn't a Pattern to be used, or a Logrus to be used? Or both?

I know it's a broad question that can go in many directions, so for now, use this hypothetical situation:

Assuming that Pattern and Logrus have disappeared, become inaccessible, have been destroyed, but all of Shadow has remained, stayed the same, and major Shadows, such as Amber, and even the Courts of Chaos, as well as other "Primal Planes" still cast Shadows of their own, etc...

What would the Amberites do? What would a game of Amber be, if the player characters could not use the Pattern or Logrus? What if they still could?

[Evermasterx]

Continuing my train of thought from another thread, I think this is worth looking into a new idea more seriously.
Especially since Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, Lords of Olympus, and now (potentially) Blood & Shadow are going to come out in quick successions, and hopefully revive the interest in all things Amber.

I'm not sure how any of the games will truly end up handling the powers, or lack of powers, since they seem so linked to the Amber setting itself, but I, for one, am interested in running one or all of these games and use the games while adapting the Amber setting to fit what is being presented.

I have come to appreciate the following metaphysical, philosophical questions that inevitably arise from such an endeavor (especially since I'm not sure how those games will handle things, being NOT AMBER and their own thing, but potentially used to run/play Amber campaigns).

Anyhow (sorry for the introductory musings), what do you think would happen to the Amber universe, the Amberites, the Chaosians, all of Shadow, if there wasn't a Pattern to be used, or a Logrus to be used? Or both?

I know it's a broad question that can go in many directions, so for now, use this hypothetical situation:

Assuming that Pattern and Logrus have disappeared, become inaccessible, have been destroyed, but all of Shadow has remained, stayed the same, and major Shadows, such as Amber, and even the Courts of Chaos, as well as other "Primal Planes" still cast Shadows of their own, etc...

What would the Amberites do? What would a game of Amber be, if the player characters could not use the Pattern or Logrus? What if they still could?

Could be that all that remain are a Broken Pattern and a Frozen Chaos? And all the dangers and decay that follow?

[Nihilistic Mind]

Could be that all that remain are a Broken Pattern and a Frozen Chaos? And all the dangers and decay that follow?

I like that idea a lot.

[jibbajibba]

Wouldn't they all just learn sorcery and use shadow teleportation ?

[Stormwind]

I suspect that Trump and Shapeshifting would quickly become the major powers. Sorcery and Conjuration would depend highly on their power source in your campaign, but they too might be more desirable than some poor substitute of the Pattern(broken pattern) or Logrus(frozen chaos).

[Nihilistic Mind]

Trump was my first thought too...

[Evermasterx]

I suspect that Trump and Shapeshifting would quickly become the major powers. Sorcery and Conjuration would depend highly on their power source in your campaign, but they too might be more desirable than some poor substitute of the Pattern(broken pattern) or Logrus(frozen chaos).

I agree on Trump and Shapeshifting, not completely on Sorcery and Conjuration, which I consider "local" powers, but finding a way to repair a broken pattern or to free the logrus could be a major goal for very ambitious people and a plot for the game.

[Nihilistic Mind]

I agree on Trump and Shapeshifting, not completely on Sorcery and Conjuration, which I consider "local" powers, but finding a way to repair a broken pattern or to free the logrus could be a major goal for very ambitious people and a plot for the game.

*rubs hands together* Ok, now we're cookin'!

I like the idea of something like this going down (and may use it as the basis for a future campaign): The Pattern and Logrus, both sentient at the time, essentially destroy each other to the point where they are both too damaged to begin repair on their own... The Powers having done so "behind the scenes" so to speak (perhaps in Undershadow or some such), no one truly knows why the powers have degraded and the why becomes less important than what the current Amberites can accomplish.

As a side note: It is almost a return to the Corwin Chronicles metaphysics, where the Amberites' wars matter more than the underlying struggle of Powers, rather than in the Merlin Chronicles, where the Sentient Powers are tossing the main characters to and fro (generalizing, of course, but a fair point nonetheless I believe).

[Evermasterx]

*rubs hands together* Ok, now we're cookin'!

I like the idea of something like this going down (and may use it as the basis for a future campaign): The Pattern and Logrus, both sentient at the time, essentially destroy each other to the point where they are both too damaged to begin repair on their own... The Powers having done so "behind the scenes" so to speak (perhaps in Undershadow or some such), no one truly knows why the powers have degraded and the why becomes less important than what the current Amberites can accomplish.

As a side note: It is almost a return to the Corwin Chronicles metaphysics, where the Amberites' wars matter more than the underlying struggle of Powers, rather than in the Merlin Chronicles, where the Sentient Powers are tossing the main characters to and fro (generalizing, of course, but a fair point nonetheless I believe).

and maybe that the key is once again Dworkin, the trait d'union, lost out there in some shadow, without memory of the past...

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, I think obviously Trump would become the major power of the world.

RPGPundit

[Darin]

Well, if there was no way of gaining access to new shadows, only shadows with previously-drawn trumps would be reachable. These shadows would become more real over time, giving people who already had Trump artistry (or, at least, access to trumps of shadows) more resources to work with than others.

A shadow might no longer be something anyone could have, but a commodity.

[Stormwind]

Yeah, I think obviously Trump would become the major power of the world.

RPGPundit

You might be right, (and I'd even agree with you with regards to external power sources) but I think that people generally undervalue shapeshifting and I'd raise an argument that shapeshifters would be a potent force to be reckoned with in this situation. In particular, I'd argue that those with shapeshifting and those with trump would be equally potent (albeit in different areas of expertise).

Well, if there was no way of gaining access to new shadows, only shadows with previously-drawn trumps would be reachable. These shadows would become more real over time, giving people who already had Trump artistry (or, at least, access to trumps of shadows) more resources to work with than others.

A shadow might no longer be something anyone could have, but a commodity.

Advanced shapeshifting provides the ability to traverse shadows (and thus to find new ones), as does drawing trumps of desire.

[weilide]

There is also the possibility that with Pattern and Logrus out of commission trump might simply cease to work, as was the case when Oberon repaired the Pattern.

[AshenHaze]

It would also greatly increase the importance of kingdoms of the Golden Circle etc to which pathways had already been created.  In a situation like this I'd see cooperating with already established shadow kingdoms to be more important, because a lot of resources that were virtually infinite previously would no longer be so.  If sorcery was still functional and able to open up even limited amounts of shadows that would also become more important.

[charis]

Also: Welcome to the forums Darin!