Amber: The Litmus Test of Healthy Maturity in Gaming

[Otha]

Good point on the multidimensional empowerment.

A 'game' where the GM has *all* authority... is a novel.

[jhkim]

it raises an interesting question (though an off-topic one): why the hell do Theory people do that? I mean, in the last while I've heard several Forge-types mention it, that "most indie people play traditional games too!", as if that suddenly makes it all better. What it really does is seem utterly confusing and make them seem like hypocrites.

If there is such a problem with players being disempowered, why are all these Forgies running around playing GM-empowered games?

I think the problem here is that you're assuming that if one swine says something, that automatically means that all other swine believe the same.  While this might not technically be a conspiracy theory, it's still pretty dumb.  

It might be utterly confusing to you, but different people do have different opinions -- rather than conforming to your preconceptions of them.  I have never had a problem with traditional GM power.  

Having played in numerous of their ACNW games, I can confidently state that the Evil Hat games definitely place full authority with the GM.  Near as I can tell, so does Spirit of the Century -- based on character generation and a single session of gaming.  So I'm not sure who the "you guys" are, but Fred, Rob, + Co have no "ideal of Player Empowerment."  Fred does an excellent, full-viking-hat, Oberon.

Well, you might not have used those rules, but Spirit of the Century allows players to spend a fate point to make minor declarations (p12) or "invoke for effect" (p40) to make "less minor" declarations.  This isn't particularly Forge-related -- it's similar to what can be done with Ars Magica Whimsy Cards, Torg subplot cards, Buffy the Vampire Slayer plot twists, or Adventure! dramatic editing.

[RPGPundit]

So...

You're saying you don't understand?

Are you saying you want to understand?

Or are you dismissing them as hypocrites because their behavior doesn't match your conception of their philosophy?

I would like to hear their reasoning and explanations.

RPGPundit

[TonyLB]

I would like to hear their reasoning and explanations.

Might be worth raising in its own thread, in a forum that non-Amberphiles will also read.  You might get a broader audience than five pages deep in a thread of a different topic in a specialty forum.

[finarvyn]

Compared to other RPGs, an Amber GM has a lot of control -- so among people who dislike it, it seems natural that you'll find people who dislike that amount of control.  I don't think this is generally out of ignorance any more than any other game tests.

But it is ignorance if those same players fail to realize that the GM has just as much control in most of the other games. The illusion of the dice behind the screen is that any one might beat any thing at any time, if only the dice cooperate. Any person who has run a RPG with dice knows that this is a sham because the GM has total control of how many and how tough the opponent. The GM has just as much control in other RPGS, it's just more obvious in ADRP because of the lack of dice.

Believe it or not, some people genuinely might not like your favorite game.

Fred Hicks is author of "Spirit of the Century" and "Don't Rest Your Head" and is involved with Indie Press Revolution -- and he has been running great events at ACNW for years along with the others of the Evil Hat Games crew.

I've had conversations with Fred on boards and by e-mail and I'm pretty impressed with the way he does things, and hope someday to play in a game he GMs. :cool:

[Trevelyan]

I would like to hear their reasoning and explanations.

RPGPundit

I think the basic argument is that some people like more than one flavour of ice cream :what: