Amber: The Litmus Test of Healthy Maturity in Gaming

[Ian Absentia]

The drama and weight behind his posts doesn't come from him - it comes from the half dozen people who run around like they have they to throw themselves bodily in front of innocent readers to protect them from Pundit's ideas.

I realised that as I wrote my posts above, but sometimes you just need to put a name to a bad smell.  Pundit's post was an excuse to make his usual attacks against the usual suspects, and it belonged over in his personal opinion forum.

So why don't we make this official?  I'd like to suggest that this thread be moved to The RPGPundit's Own Forum, where one would expect to find personal screeds like this.

!i!

[RPGPundit]

Can someone please point me at an example of a Pundit-defined swine dissing Amber. I'd love to see what they think is wrong with it.

Well, unfortunately the Guardians Of Order forums don't exist anymore, but there you had this whole group of guys who basically came in there explicitly to try to convince GoO that a "2nd edition" Amber game should run on Nobilis rules, and not Amber's.

Likewise, on RPG.net you often see Swine taking potshots at Amber.
They hate it because it gives GMs "too much power"; because it doesn't believe in using mechanics to simulate social interaction; but mostly they just hate it because it actually works, unlike their theories.

RPGPundit

P.S. If you want evidence of the above, just check out the current RPG.net thread that was linked to above.  Look at what guys like Topher say ("it depends entirely on GM fiat") Eric Tolle ("Nobilis should be adapted to Amber"), etc.

P.P.S. Erick, you could have added a link to this forum on your post over there. Nothing like free advertising!

[The Yann Waters]

Look at what guys like Topher say ("it depends entirely on GM fiat") Eric Tolle ("Nobilis should be adapted to Amber"), etc.

"Could be" is what Tolle suggested, not "should be"; and in all fairness, such conversions already exist on the 'Net. It all comes down to preferences in the game mechanics.

[Erick Wujcik]

P.P.S. Erick, you could have added a link to this forum on your post over there. Nothing like free advertising!

I thought about it.

Then I decided it would be better to put a link to this forum on the Phage Press website.

Erick

[RPGPundit]

I thought about it.

Then I decided it would be better to put a link to this forum on the Phage Press website.

Erick

Ohhh.. that's very cool too!

RPGPundit

[Erick Wujcik]

Paraphrasing:
   "Normal" gamers who get the idea of diceless gaming will love Amber
"Swine" will hate Amber
Ridiculous, insulting preconceptions.  Fallacies that border on outright lies. And that's just right off the top, ignoring the rest of the screed.  It's the same garbage he recycles over and over.

Honestly, why do you let this jackass represent your game like this?

While I don't agree with RPGpundit's every sentiment, I do get enormous enjoyment out of his ability to articulate those sentiments.

Besides, he's a big fan of Amber Diceless. Even better, he's a vocal fan of Amber Diceless.

And he managed to nag me into participating in this forum.

What can I say? I like the guy.

Erick

[Otha]

I didn't think RPGnet was the big pigpen... last time I was there, the people had a pretty wide range of opinions.

[PGiverty]

P.S. If you want evidence of the above, just check out the current RPG.net thread that was linked to above.  Look at what guys like Topher say ("it depends entirely on GM fiat") Eric Tolle ("Nobilis should be adapted to Amber"), etc.

P.P.S. Erick, you could have added a link to this forum on your post over there. Nothing like free advertising!

Thank you for the link. I can see some evidence of what you say, but mainly it seems to be an Amber love-in.

I've really enjoyed the Amber I've played, but when things are very closely matched in a conflict, I do think it's a little "Mother May-I". I'd really like some suggestions for non-arbitrary ways of deciding who should win very close contests based not just on who is the most persistent arguer. Maybe a different thread?

[Otha]

I'd really like some suggestions for non-arbitrary ways of deciding who should win very close contests based not just on who is the most persistent arguer. Maybe a different thread?

Thank you for phrasing positively something I've been saying negatively for some time.  Bravo!

[jibbajibba]

I have started another thread to discuss the issue of non-arbitarty conflict resolution. I even tried to summarise the argument but then I got involved in a long convoluted example that in retrospect probably has very little to do with the topic

[SunBoy]

OK, so I went totally ignored again. I offered a "pistol flaunting at dawn" about Amber to anyone willing to take it, and nobody answered. Option one, it went at the bottom of page 1 just seconds before JimBob post, so maybe it passed unnoticed. Option two, no one is willing to argue against Amber, what will be great, and Option three, nobody gave a shit, what I sort of dig, too. So, wich one was it?

[The Yann Waters]

I offered a "pistol flaunting at dawn" about Amber to anyone willing to take it, and nobody answered. Option one, it went at the bottom of page 1 just seconds before JimBob post, so maybe it passed unnoticed. Option two, no one is willing to argue against Amber, what will be great, and Option three, nobody gave a shit, what I sort of dig, too. So, wich one was it?

At a guess, the truth lies somewhere between #2 and #3. I don't think that folks generally carry any sort of long-standing grudges against ADRPG, although some of them might personally prefer a system with a little more "game" to it. That's just not something worth arguing over.

[Ian Absentia]

I'm with GrimGent on this.  I have little reason or desire to argue against ADRPG.  My complaint was with the false dichotomies presented regarding who would like the game and why.

!i!

[TonyLB]

Yeah.  Y'know, when you post:

Oh, and offer's open to anyone who doesn't like Amber.

... in a forum all about Amber ... I mean, who's going to be interested?  Haven't you pretty much picked a population that is heavily self-selected to be people who do in fact like Amber?  I don't think you should take the whole "People ignored me" too personally

[SunBoy]

I don't. I'm not crying right now. The reason this post took me three weeks to answer was NOT that I was crying and feeling bad and depressed and listening to Evanescence. Really.
Oh, and you might be right about audience selection. But I'm not that sure.