[Amber] Power Questions

[noman]

Hi.

Stupid Amber Questions...

Do you use partial powers?

How do create new powers?  Do you use the new power creation system in the Amber rulebook?

I know these are old topics, but I was hoping for some updated feedback.

My players loved partial powers for obvious reasons.  I hate them.  I get that they make character creation easier for the players and allow for more flexibility in character design.  I'm not denying they have value.  But I don't like them for a couple of reasons.

A) They tend to encourage min-maxing.  While I don't mind, and even encourage, some degree of optimization, it can get out of hand very quickly.  The artifact and creation rules already tend to bring out the munchkins in my campaigns.  Throwing in partial powers adds fuel to a fire I'm already having to work on putting out.

B) IMO, they go against the spirit of the game setting.  The characters from Zelazny's novels didn't demonstrate the dabbler, eclectic use of powers in the manner that partial powers would generate.  Zelazny's characters specialized in their area of expertise.  I understand powers as being intensely complex bodies of knowledge that don't lend themselves easily to the piece-by-piece approach created by partial powers.  It would be like a surgeon only knowing how to perform a specific cut, removal, or replacement of a specific organ in a specific way with no knowldge of the rest of the body's systems.  Merlin isn't an exception to this.  He doesn't dabble in piece-by-piece powers.  He learns every power he can get his hands on, and he learns those powers fully.

Just my opinion.

As for power creation, I've never been able to get the system in the rulebook to work for me.  I always end up with a 90+ point power.  I've never been able to replicate the canon powers using that system, and I have no idea how you would make something like power words or conjuring with it.  Am I the only one, or am I just a deeply nooby GM?

How do you guys create new powers?

Thoughts?  Feelings?  Rages?  Thanks

[Artifacts of Amber]

I use a partial powers system with most things costing 5 to 10 points with the exception of some sorcery stuff.

I have a rather long list of non cannon powers that fall under one heading Primal sources. I'll try to remember to throw up the primal source info and my partial powers break down tonight when I get home but basically they are powers with 4 tiers that cost 5 points each. Both Broken pattern and Fixed Logrus fall into these.

Since I rewrote the Conjuration/Item rules for my Artifacts of Amber game at Ambercon (A million years ago) I have been happy with the functionality of that system and has stayed close to the Game books without making it a munchkin fun fest.

If you think about the descriptions of the old powers like trump and pattern they really give no solid set of rules so creating new powers is actually easy. I don't use the book rules but just free wheel it trying to make 5 points in one power as valuable as 5 points in another or in a Stat. I worry about points being equal a good bit. Mainly because I need them as guidelines more so than the players, They are my tool for guiding the game mechanics.

I have trouble imagining some one min-maxing things in Amber. Since most powers are like 4-5 sentences left open to interpretation it is hard to leverage that to some huge advantage. I admit the Item rules are kind of broke that way but that's why I fixed it.

Min-maxing seems a more hard rules thing to me. Hard numbers and really well defined rule set.

Just my thoughts.

[noman]

@ Arifacts of Amber...

Thank you for your reply.  You make some very good points.

I tend to get impatient with Amber character creation.  I will give a player all the time in the world if he or she is trying work out their concept, description, details, background etc.  That's no problem.  But what gets my panties in a wad is when players spend more than a few hours number-crunching their character build in order to get the "perfect" character in terms of points.  That's now what Amber is about.  In every game I've run, there is always one player who will try to abuse partial powers.  He usually works with his partner...the guy with the invulnerable jumpsuit with multiple conferrals and a deadly damage wolf/tiger/Sharktopus/Chuck Norris.  Yes, as the GM it's my job to deal with this kind of thing, and I do, but it's annoying as hell.  I have to waste gametime dealing with a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

In my last campaign I declared a no partial power rule.  my players mutinied.  They eventually agreed when they realized I had pizza and beer.

Please don't get me wrong.  I'm not hating on GMs like you who use partial powers.  I understand their value and I respect the folks who use them.  I'm only speaking from my own experience and what has, and hasn't worked for me.

[jibbajibba]

Use Partial powers all the time

i) It more closely mirrors the books

ii) Puts more structure round power use and prevents a certain type of PC abusing the rather fluffy power descriptions

iii) lets PCs take powers in all sorts of unusual directions

I use a power tree.
So walking the pattern costs you 10 points
From there you can learn 3 skills
Pattern Walking (5 points)
Manipulate Shadow (5 points)
Pattern of the Mind (5 points)

From Shadow walking you can learn
The Royal Way (5 points)
Hellriding (5 points)
Shadow search (5 points) - serach for items of desire

From the Royal Way you can learn
Mass Shadow Walking (5 points) - taking armies through shadow
etc

The PCs never see the partial pattern list and it is constantly in flux
The PCs create their powers through a conversation.
So Pattern.. have you walked the pattern
Yes
Okay 10 points and you can now call down the blood curse. But you have no experience of how to walk through sahdow or any other stuff.
Okay well I want to be able to walk through shadow
Okay well basic Shadow walking is 5
Okay. I want to be able to manipulate shadow as well and find stuff liek troops or weapons
Okay well from shadow walking you can take Shadow Seek and from the base pattern you can take manipulate shadow for 5 more.

Now some PCs go right down a single strand very deep they have 50 points just in shadow walkign so they can set shadow barriers, trail people through shadow, hide their own path through shadow etc etc .. but they can't bring the pattern to mind as a defence of use it for spells or manipulate probability

It means there are no complete powers. There is no such thing as 'all teh pattern skills' or all of shapeshifting.
It means that all PCs even starting 100 point PCs can usually travel through shadow but also have some interesting side abilities (I actually prefer 150 or 200 point starting characters I don't think Amber needs a steep experience curve I am fine with everyone starting out very tough)
I can break the powers that seem too tough for the points, like Sorcerey down into 5 point chunks that more closely match the power of other partials.
Its a tree so you can't select the most powerful pattern teleportation power for your PC without picking up 30-40 points of stuff in the pattern of the mind tree first. This discourages min/maxing but creates archetypes. If you want that thing you really have to pay the price of Dworkin's secret lore.
I get peopel taking powers in all sorts of interesting directions. Shapreshifters who can peel off shadow like pieces of themselves imbued with some of their psyche to act as spies, Sorcerers that use elemental or mirror magic, masters of pattern probability that have hones their powers to the extreme, trump experts that create sculptures all sorts
I can create new powers from simple ideas and PCs don't inherit them whole sale they pick them up one skill at a time through experiment.

All in all its been really sucessful

[Artifacts of Amber]

I never thought you were hating on me Noman.

I remembered to attach my badly formatted PDF of my campaign rules including Conjuration and sorcery systems which are very close to the books yet not.

It covers partial powers

closing the loopholes in items/artifacts and handles sorcery well.

Or at least it does all those things for my style and games.

Just my thoughts

[noman]

@ jibbajibba and Artifacts,

Wow!  Thanks guys (gals) for the info.  That helps me quite a bit.  

@ Artifacts

Thank you for taking the time to share this.  It's really great!

I never thought you were hating on me Noman.

Oh, I know.  I just like being exceedingly poilte.  I never really know how I'm coming across and I don't want to offend folks who are taking the time to give me a hand.

[Panjumanju]

Thoughts?  Feelings?  Rages?  Thanks

I agree with most of what you say about partial powers. Generally, it annoys me and increases the amount of book-keeping I have to do.

My quick fix - make them expensive. If a power breaks down into four different aspects, affording that aspect is not simply a matter of taking the power cost and dividing by 4 (as the player assumes). I tend to make each facet of a power about 60% of its power's cost. Piece by piece, the power costs a lot more.

I find as a player that you can get more done with aspects of a power you never knew were useful, if you want to get creative. Treating powers like a grocery list - one item at a time and skip the things that aren't "worth it", you never come to appreciate the full power.

And generally I just trust Erick to have balanced the game.

//Panjumanju

[jibbajibba]

I agree with most of what you say about partial powers. Generally, it annoys me and increases the amount of book-keeping I have to do.

My quick fix - make them expensive. If a power breaks down into four different aspects, affording that aspect is not simply a matter of taking the power cost and dividing by 4 (as the player assumes). I tend to make each facet of a power about 60% of its power's cost. Piece by piece, the power costs a lot more.

I find as a player that you can get more done with aspects of a power you never knew were useful, if you want to get creative. Treating powers like a grocery list - one item at a time and skip the things that aren't "worth it", you never come to appreciate the full power.

And generally I just trust Erick to have balanced the game.

//Panjumanju

Like I noted using a partial power tree gets rid of cherry picking its more work toward a target.
Also in my game the total power set under 'basic pattern' comes to about 70 points

I find there is more work upfront at Chargen, but I beleive all Amber chargen shoudl be a conversation, but it is far easier to run in play.

The big driver for me were trump tricks and the bad stuff cost of walking the pattern.
In the books Caine is the classic example of a guy who had as a side angle put a few points in Trump. He can't paint trump, he can't create trump artefacts but he has spent free time and points learning a few tricks.
When a PC walks the pattern they get hit with a 50 point badstuff debt and they suddenly know all about about pattern I much prefer walking the pattern to carry a 10 point badstuff debt and you have to learn how to use all its powers.

I find that characters are much richer when partial powers are in play.

In my early games we saw 3 sorts of characters

i) Pattern + stats. 50 for pattern 50 on stats
ii) Pattern, Sorcery + lower stats. sacfrice some stats and take sorcery cos its a bargain
iii) The Shadow Lame. Stats and maybe an item that confers limited sahdow travel - these guys usually show up as the result of a bididng war.

With partial powers you usually get PCs with some basic pattern and something else so the thing feels richer.

[Croaker]

In my early games we saw 3 sorts of characters

i) Pattern + stats. 50 for pattern 50 on stats
ii) Pattern, Sorcery + lower stats. sacfrice some stats and take sorcery cos its a bargain
iii) The Shadow Lame. Stats and maybe an item that confers limited sahdow travel - these guys usually show up as the result of a bididng war.

With partial powers you usually get PCs with some basic pattern and something else so the thing feels richer.

For what it's worth, a way to avoid that is to give pattern for free.
Whether you have people bid with 50 or 100 (or whatever) points is up to you.

Not that I don't use partial powers

[Croaker]

How do create new powers?  Do you use the new power creation system in the Amber rulebook?

The power creation system in amber gives a cost that is supposed to be shared by initiates.
After all, being the only one to have a specific power gives you an edge.

OTOH, I've been pleasantly surprised by the Powers creation system in Lords of Olympus, and thinks that it works better than the original. You should take a look at it, if only for inspiration.

[Evermasterx]

I agree with noman, for the very same reasons, plus I don't want to use a house rule unless it is absolutely necessary, as in the case of Conjuration, which in my opinion is the only page of the game really obscure.

[RPGPundit]

The power creation system in amber gives a cost that is supposed to be shared by initiates.
After all, being the only one to have a specific power gives you an edge.

OTOH, I've been pleasantly surprised by the Powers creation system in Lords of Olympus, and thinks that it works better than the original. You should take a look at it, if only for inspiration.

Thanks, it was one thing I wanted to improve upon!

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

As for me, I have run a LOT of Amber campaigns; and in some, way back when, I used partial powers.  However, as time went by I discarded them, for much the same reasons as listed in the OP.

That said, in LoO the powers are generally more broken-up than in Amber, so you could say I made some concessions in that regard.

RPGPundit

[Jason D]

As for power creation, I've never been able to get the system in the rulebook to work for me.  I always end up with a 90+ point power.  I've never been able to replicate the canon powers using that system, and I have no idea how you would make something like power words or conjuring with it.  Am I the only one, or am I just a deeply nooby GM?

How do you guys create new powers?

Thoughts?  Feelings?  Rages?  Thanks

When I was working on Rebma, I had a few new powers I wanted to include. I fiddled with the power creation system on each of them, and ended up with prices that were more-or-less ridiculous.

I called Erick and asked him what I was doing wrong. He admitted that the system didn't work that well, and suggested I just create them from scratch, using the existing ones as models.

I gathered that the power creation system was a late addition to the ADRP rulebook, and may not have received a lot of testing and/or use. It's telling that he didn't even use it for the Abyss power in the adventure at the end of the rulebook.

(I feel like I crossposted this from rpg.net, where a similar question was asked on a thread there.)

[RPGPundit]

When I was working on Rebma, I had a few new powers I wanted to include. I fiddled with the power creation system on each of them, and ended up with prices that were more-or-less ridiculous.

I called Erick and asked him what I was doing wrong. He admitted that the system didn't work that well, and suggested I just create them from scratch, using the existing ones as models.

I gathered that the power creation system was a late addition to the ADRP rulebook, and may not have received a lot of testing and/or use. It's telling that he didn't even use it for the Abyss power in the adventure at the end of the rulebook.

(I feel like I crossposted this from rpg.net, where a similar question was asked on a thread there.)

This is interesting, because when I talked with Erick on the subject (I'm guessing much later than when you did if you were still writing Rebma at the time), he implied to me that it had all been intentional on his part, that he wanted the point costs to be very high to discourage powergamers from making up unique powers for themselves that give them an advantage, or something along those lines.  

I always found that reasoning kind of odd, and seemingly out of place with a lot of the rest of what he'd done in Amber's rules and GM advice alike; I wonder if it was what he ended up convincing himself was he point of it, in the intervening years between your conversation with him and mine?

RPGPundit