Amber: PG-13?

[scottishstorm]

Klaus,

In the English language alone there are more collective terms for feces, urine and fortification than can I can list.  I wholeheartedly agree that all these make good cursing subjects.  However, I'd like to think some players have the originality to use alternative phrasing -maybe even making up new terms- rather than lazily falling back on dialogue better suited for movies about corrupt cops and urban decay in the modern era.

In case I am misunderstood, the point was never some sort of ethical stand against swearing.  It was a suggestion that players make their swearing (if and when appropriate) fit the character, atmosphere and setting they're in.

"So, hold yer tongue or ye'd be gettin' me belaying pin right up yer stern!"

[Klaus]

Klaus,

In the English language alone there are more collective terms for feces, urine and fortification than can I can list.  I wholeheartedly agree that all these make good cursing subjects.  However, I'd like to think some players have the originality to use alternative phrasing -maybe even making up new terms- rather than lazily falling back on dialogue better suited for movies about corrupt cops and urban decay in the modern era.

A player who's character is cursing in his native language should not say "Oh doodie!" the player should say "Oh shit!" Unless the character is speaking in an unusual dialect of English, we have to pretend that whatever the player is saying is actually a translation of what the character is saying. And if in-game you are swearing, the proper English equivalent is "shit." Using some synonym like "poo" doesn't make sense because idiomatically the two words are not the same.

[scottishstorm]

A player who's character is cursing in his native language should not say "Oh doodie!" the player should say "Oh shit!" Unless the character is speaking in an unusual dialect of English, we have to pretend that whatever the player is saying is actually a translation of what the character is saying. And if in-game you are swearing, the proper English equivalent is "shit." Using some synonym like "poo" doesn't make sense because idiomatically the two words are not the same.

I'll try this from yet another angle.  We know Corwin speaks (at the minimum) English, French, German and Thari.  I think it's reasonable to assume that Amber characters are typically multilingual.  Furthermore, they're influenced by several different cultures.  We can also include the popular expressions (or curses) that are subject to change from era to era.  That's one helluva blending and resource pool.

Everyone can, of course, play as they see fit.  I'm not telling someone they're wrong if their character says "fuck" or "shit".  I am, however, suggesting there may be creative alternatives that may even better define the character/setting/atmosphere/background.  If this is too difficult to understand or you still disagree, then fine.  You have every right to disagree with my suggestions or opinions, as I do with yours.

[Croaker]

To add some water to scottishstorm's mill, I would recall you all captain haddock, of tintin's fame. One of the things that made this character memorable was his frequent and volubile use of curses. But he wouldn't say "motherfucker", but, say... bachi-bouzouk, boit-sans-soif (drinks without thirst), schizophrene and a lot of colorful terms

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, this has never really been any kind of consideration for me; pretty well every campaign I run period is effectively rated "R".

RPGPundit

[scottishstorm]

yeah, this has never really been any kind of consideration for me; pretty well every campaign i run period is effectively rated "r".

full frontal nudity!?!

[finarvyn]

full frontal nudity!?!

Only among the players, and only at the gaming table. The NPCs never get to have any fun.

[Ivanhoe]

Oberon spits.  "Would be your whore of a mother never parted her legs, nor I climbed between them!"

Random snorts. "Says the motherfucker."

Swearing can be classy when out of place. I remember Random being quite untempered against a confused Mandor appearing in the middle of a shaken Amber Castle. Swearing in Amber can also have whole depth of meaning because some images can be quite literal. When called a zoophile family by some Chaosian squire, after having properly disposed of him, they discussed about the merit of the insult and whether or not the Unicorn begot Oberon in a literal way.

Every character has the power to impose its own ways in some settings. Elders don't like swearing kids (with possible exceptions of Corwin and Random) and players will effectively loose credit by doing so in front of them. But who am I to say that they must be polite when they visit some obscure tavern in a remote part of Shadow ?

I must say that as a European I did never understood these American ratings where violence is OK but swearing or showing of tits (things I prefer my kids doign rather than violence) is not. Notwithstanding the eyes-poky thing, we have wars (Corwin and Bleys killing hundreds on the Kolvir), killing of beloved ones (Deirdre), fratricidal sacrifices (Martin - Brand)...

I usually consider Amber to be a mature game.

[scottishstorm]

Nice post, Ivanhoe!

I agree that, within a c3ertain context, Amber is very 'mature themes'.  In addition to what you wrote above, the philosophical issues in the Amber books can be discussed intelligently for decades without proper resolution.

My earlier posts about swearing and 'restricted' themes stemmed more from the perception of player-laziness than had anything to do maturity level of ts playerbase, characters and themes.

As a Canadian, I'm as confused by the American movie/television rating hypocrisy.   It is a blow to one's sanity, for instance, to be explicitly told that graphic (and often gratuitous) violence is more acceptable than people loving one another.

[jibbajibba]

Nice post, Ivanhoe!

As a Canadian, I'm as confused by the American movie/television rating hypocrisy.   It is a blow to one's sanity, for instance, to be explicitly told that graphic (and often gratuitous) violence is more acceptable than people loving one another.

Especially when you consider that American's have the largest and most active Porn industry in the world.

But what always gets me about US TV is why so many supermodels choose careers in forensics ?

[gabriel_ss4u]

ScottishStorm: I guess I failed my comprehension skill check! I agree that a prince ought to be classy and keep curses for tense moments like a battle or what not. OTOH a character whose concept is "unfamiliar with the palace and protocol" could play the rude card to insist on how much work he's got left to fit the mold.

I agree, I can see an Amberite yelling, "by the Unicorn's hairy rump!" but IMHO, if it were Caine yelling on the docks, well, the other sailors life style I'm sure has infected him sufficiently enough to turn it into a degree or so more vulgar.
A character concept will dictate your speech style, and thou profanity tends to be something that doesn't thrive in Castle Kolvier, it would be absurd to think the princes & princesses don't use it when it suits them. These are after all, people who do what they want, when they want, usually.
Random, Caine, even Eric I'm sure IMC have cursed when situation prompts.
I had a PC that played a background raised around Aliens as a colonial Space Marine, ya think he didn't swear?

Nowwww, if you have a player cracking beers and cursing all the time during play, then it's most likely just a bad choice of who you let into your game.

[scottishstorm]

I agree, I can see an Amberite yelling, "by the Unicorn's hairy rump!" but IMHO, if it were Caine yelling on the docks, well, the other sailors life style I'm sure has infected him sufficiently enough to turn it into a degree or so more vulgar.

Hmm.

Is Caine vulgar?  Even around other sailors?    I've gotten more of the "silently sinister" type of impression from him.

For argument's sake, let's say that we're talking about an ill-bred Caine-kid; a glorified pirate and loud/obnoxious privateer type  that tends to be a prominent presence on the docks.  Sure, such a player's character could curse up a blue streak of colourful modern explicitness (and arguably to good effect).  Or, said player might try to contribute to the theme/genre by inventing new terms!

In any event, I still maintain that the use of modern/real-life swear words may be an indication of lazy play.  Others will successfully argue that suck language choices are entirely appropriate for their character.  I'd just like to think people consider this before taking the easy route, as it seems somehow cheap and ill-fitting most of the time to me.

[gabriel_ss4u]

now what about a player who isn't use to profanity, but breaks from his /her mold to use it within character concept? anyone have a shy player that had a cursin' character?

[RPGPundit]

Not usually, no.

RPGPundit

[gabriel_ss4u]

Nice post, Ivanhoe!

As a Canadian, I'm as confused by the American movie/television rating hypocrisy.   It is a blow to one's sanity, for instance, to be explicitly told that graphic (and often gratuitous) violence is more acceptable than people loving one another.

I'm American, and i'm confused by it.
I think Euro-trip, the movie said it best. We're a society of sexual-freedom deprived people started out by the prudes who left Europe, who need the crazy European sex... Flugenvigorneist!.... or whatever that funny Lucy Lawless part was.