Amber: PG-13?

[scottishstorm]

This may be an old thread.  I haven't checked back that far.

Consider the maturity level of Amber in terms of a movie rating.  Would others agree that PG-13 would fit?  Let's assume for the moment that you do.  That being said, any thoughts about players who swear excessively in-character or bring the game theme to really dark & twisted levels?

I think it's better in-genre role-play to say something like

"I curse like a sailor with a stubbed toe!  After a few moment of verbal filth, I then ask, 'What do you want?'"

rather than to say:

"I say: 'You motherf----- ass----!  Why don't you f--- yourself with your own f------ sword?!' then calm down a bit and ask, 'What do you want?'"

Same with dark & twisted stuff.  I think we've all played with people who go there...  And, yes, there has some legitimate place in story-telling.  But, sometimes, vague is better.  Especially for Amber.  Agree or no?

[boulet]

I don't understand how your line of questions is related to Amber DRPG in particular. The use of vulgar language at the table is a matter of group preference. Personally I'd have trouble playing with people who are offended if I say "fuck" (in character or not).

If a PC curses like a sailor and it's part of the way the player envision it, if this player prefers to speak in 1st person, I can't see an obvious solution at a table where other players are offended by the f word.

The dark and twisted stuff... I assume you mean icky content like rape or torture or something along this. I'd say it would be dabbling in something that's pretty far from Zelazny's Amber. Once again that's a matter of group preference. Better sort it out before it may happen.

"Sometimes vague is better". I agree. Zelazny doesn't detail how Corwin did Dara doggy style and what not... I think players who want graphic detailed hardcore descriptions are a tiny minority. I never met any at my table, that's for sure. But it's so far away from the issue of crude language that I think it's a case of throwing the baby with the bathwater. But maybe you're aiming at a level of genre emulation that is just a bit high for me.

[scottishstorm]

I don't understand how your line of questions is related to Amber DRPG in particular. The use of vulgar language at the table is a matter of group preference. Personally I'd have trouble playing with people who are offended if I say "fuck" (in character or not).

If a PC curses like a sailor and it's part of the way the player envision it, if this player prefers to speak in 1st person, I can't see an obvious solution at a table where other players are offended by the f word.

The dark and twisted stuff... I assume you mean icky content like rape or torture or something along this. I'd say it would be dabbling in something that's pretty far from Zelazny's Amber. Once again that's a matter of group preference. Better sort it out before it may happen.

"Sometimes vague is better". I agree. Zelazny doesn't detail how Corwin did Dara doggy style and what not... I think players who want graphic detailed hardcore descriptions are a tiny minority. I never met any at my table, that's for sure. But it's so far away from the issue of crude language that I think it's a case of throwing the baby with the bathwater. But maybe you're aiming at a level of genre emulation that is just a bit high for me.

If you took that to mean I was offended by swearing/vulgarity, you misunderstood.  Let me attempt to clarify.  The novels acknowledge, but downplay, swearing.  Why?  Because swearing just ain't classy.  As an Amber character, you should set your character to certain standards of class!

There's a secondary consideration.  Amber language and culture isn't English. (before you say "Duh!" hear me out)  Granted, those of us who RP in nglish do so at a convenience because we're not about to learn Thari! But, it's more than that.  "Naughty words" to a 20th/21st century Citizen of Earth (perhaps particularly a Westerner.  I'm in Canada and I can't vouch for the Aussies and Europeans or anywhere else in the world with English-speaking populations) may simply not carry the same weight or meaning in Amber.

In a recent Amber game, I was playing a character who was an Amber City Citizen and ex-sailor.  Someone told him shocking news and my character replied: "Great Unicorn's teat!"  I suppose I could have easily said "Fuck me!"  but the former seemed more fun and in-theme, while getting the message across.

Again, to clarify, I'm not riding on the side of political correctness.  Like you mentioned in respect to the explicit description of sex and personal horrors, I just don't think gratuitous swearing is particularly in-theme or in-genre.  In a way, it'd be like referencing something that happened in the news like last week when your character's either never been to Shadow Earth or hasn't since the early 70s Corwin Era.

[scottishstorm]

Btw, boulet, if you don't agree with me, that's cool.  The aim of this thread is to pol opinions about the content level of an Amber game and their views.  To me, Amber is epic.  Amber is pulp (in a good way!).  But, Amber isn't particularly gritty, explicit and graphic.  IMO, In Amber, we paint with a wide brush using vibrant colors.  The finished product can be stunning, yet not terribly grounded in realism and mundane nuances.

[Gothic_Pepsi]

i find swearing in place if somthing has just messed your characters plans up real bad, or even when they are just really pissed, or if the character you are playing has a fiery temper. being an aussie i find that we swear an awful lot, not sure if it just because of my age group and the people i have been around but its common place in the amber games i play to hear alot of swearing.

[Klaus]

Consider the maturity level of Amber in terms of a movie rating. Would others agree that PG-13 would fit?

Amber involves people's eyes being burned out with red-hot pokers, so no.

Same with dark & twisted stuff. I think we've all played with people who go there... And, yes, there has some legitimate place in story-telling. But, sometimes, vague is better. Especially for Amber. Agree or no?

No. There is no such thing as the "right" way to play Amber. As with any roleplaying game such things are determined by the desires and comfort level of the group.

[finarvyn]

I'm a parent of a couple of teenagers, and I always teach them that language selection will say a lot to others who are judging you. Fair or not, such things often reflect education and social upbringing. As such, I encourage my kids to keep their language more PG-13 in all settings including social and gaming situations. Having said that, my wife can curse with the best of them in some situations such as driving, so it's not like my kids don't hear those words occasionally. My gaming table, however, is clearly PG-13 most of the time, and I like it that way.

Frankly, most of the people I know don't throw around random profanity the way it's portrayed in movies. And this is one of the only message boards I frequent where it seems to be encouraged by the moderator. While I would allow my players to use random profanity in character, I would also expect that they could explain why it was necessary to the persona involved. This, of course, does not attempt to judge your gaming table. If your style is different, or your type of players are different, certainly you may find that your language selection is different as well. I'm just reporting how we do it.

When I first saw your thread title, I thought it was going to be about the rating of the books, not particular game sessions in someone's campaign. As to Zelazny's Amber series, clearly he had a similar view (or at least his publishers did). Corwin mentions curses but doesn't spell them out. A movie made out of the Amber series could be PG-13 (or pretty darned close) because it doesn't seem to have a lot of pointless violence such as what you see in so many movies. I'd have to check to see what Pirates of the Caribbean was rated, but I'd rate an Amber movie somewhat similar.

[boulet]

ScottishStorm: I guess I failed my comprehension skill check! I agree that a prince ought to be classy and keep curses for tense moments like a battle or what not. OTOH a character whose concept is "unfamiliar with the palace and protocol" could play the rude card to insist on how much work he's got left to fit the mold.

[jibbajibba]

In my current PBEM game I have 2 NPCs in Dane and Reynardine who swear reasonably often. Dane doe it to be cool and diss the people round him. Reynardine does it to cock a snook at what he regards as the poposity of Amberite ettiquette (he has previously refered to Colours and symbols as 'macho fuck-wank egotism')
I can't really stop them swearing its just in their nature.
This might mean that some of the players get offended by Dane's description of the PCs, but its just not my fault he's just drawn that way
And anyway there is swearing and swearing. At the start of Four Wedidngs and a Funeral Hiugh Grant says nothing but fuck 24 times. Four Weddings is a recognised family Rom Com. When Ray Winston swears the sensation is far more viseral.
You could easily make an Amber movie a PG or you could make it a 15 making it an 18 (R rated in the states? ) would have to be deliberate and a bit daft - like The Watchmen. I would look to make it a 15 and make the Chaos stuff a little scary I think that would lend gravitas to guilt Corwin feels from unleashing it. I think the plot strucutre would suffer if a studio when for a 13 as they would be tempted to simplify. The violence is not an issue as it's sword fighting and films like the 4 Musketeers and Robin Hood are typically PGs.

[scottishstorm]

Hmm.  

To catch-up up a bit, Klaus, Corwin does have his eyes burned out.  Though this is effectively off camera.  In the case of his narrative, he make a point of excluding details. To everyone else, the points of appropriately-time swearing are well-taken.  However, I don't know if anyone has caught onto the subtext.  I'll be more explicit.

Swear words can be lazy writing and poor role-play.

Cursing can be very much in-character.  A given character may routinely curse up a blue streak.  Though, having the 'character' utilize modern RL vulgarities exclusivity is, IMO, lazy.

Here's where my argument starts to fall apart, I admit.  In the books, Zelazny occasionally has a character say something to the effect of "Oh my god!" or "God damn" which both have Judeo-Christian foundations.  It seems unlikely that the characters of Amber and Chaos recognize the existence of a single monotheistic god.  Hence, the expression unravels.

 But, I'd love to see more players make up their own curses and obscenities that are genre and character appropriate.  I could even see the merit of someone doing this as a campaign contribution! Haha  Imagine someone constantly adding to the list of regional-specific curses and expressions for Amber, Rebma, Begma, Kashfa, The Courts of Chaos, etc.  Well into the campaign, there may be a bound booklet of 10-15 printed pages of such stuff, categorized and all.  As a GM, I'd give points for that! *sort of like the Urban Dictionary for Amber)

[jibbajibba]

Hmm.  

To catch-up up a bit, Klaus, Corwin does have his eyes burned out.  Though this is effectively off camera.  In the case of his narrative, he make a point of excluding details. To everyone else, the points of appropriately-time swearing are well-taken.  However, I don't know if anyone has caught onto the subtext.  I'll be more explicit.

Swear words can be lazy writing and poor role-play.

Cursing can be very much in-character.  A given character may routinely curse up a blue streak.  Though, having the 'character' utilize modern RL vulgarities exclusivity is, IMO, lazy.

Here's where my argument starts to fall apart, I admit.  In the books, Zelazny occasionally has a character say something to the effect of "Oh my god!" or "God damn" which both have Judeo-Christian foundations.  It seems unlikely that the characters of Amber and Chaos recognize the existence of a single monotheistic god.  Hence, the expression unravels.

 But, I'd love to see more players make up their own curses and obscenities that are genre and character appropriate.  I could even see the merit of someone doing this as a campaign contribution! Haha  Imagine someone constantly adding to the list of regional-specific curses and expressions for Amber, Rebma, Begma, Kashfa, The Courts of Chaos, etc.  Well into the campaign, there may be a bound booklet of 10-15 printed pages of such stuff, categorized and all.  As a GM, I'd give points for that! *sort of like the Urban Dictionary for Amber)

I can agree with that but again its character based. Dane is mean to be like a snotty public school boy playing at being a hardarse gansta. He was educated at a private school on earth for a while as well. Reynardine is a traveller through shadow. His use of swearing is more playful but in order to give an insight into his anti-establishment character swearing in his voice gives an immediate in. I don't think its lazy I would actually say that if you can give a full impression of a character from a couple of sentences of his dialogue that is elegant writing and swearing is a part of that character.

[scottishstorm]

I can agree with that but again its character based. Dane is mean to be like a snotty public school boy playing at being a hardarse gansta. He was educated at a private school on earth for a while as well. Reynardine is a traveller through shadow. His use of swearing is more playful but in order to give an insight into his anti-establishment character swearing in his voice gives an immediate in. I don't think its lazy I would actually say that if you can give a full impression of a character from a couple of sentences of his dialogue that is elegant writing and swearing is a part of that character.

Ok, ok, ok. . !

I'll rephrase, then.  It can be lazy!  Unless I'm being especially inarticulate, I think (hope) the difference is clear.  It's essentially the same argument or point we make about any rpg in which one plays a character that is vastly different from the player.  Let's face it.  We've all seen D&D elves that are played in-character calling everyone "Dude" and/or great buddies with the party orc.  The analogy is a little stretched, granted.  To tie it back regarding, say, swearing, it is a part of finding your character's voice.  Wherein a string of "Shadow Earth" cursing may be appropriate for character A, it may detract from character B.

Oh, here's an example!  Oberon (as Ganelon or otherwise).  I think it's very much in-character for Oberon to have a colorful vocabulary!  But, I don't necessarily see him dropping f-bombs.  He can be vulgar and crass without them.  He can shock the listener without them.

Oberon spits.  "Would be your whore of a mother never parted her legs, nor I climbed between them!"

[jibbajibba]

Ok, ok, ok. . !

I'll rephrase, then.  It can be lazy!  Unless I'm being especially inarticulate, I think (hope) the difference is clear.  It's essentially the same argument or point we make about any rpg in which one plays a character that is vastly different from the player.  Let's face it.  We've all seen D&D elves that are played in-character calling everyone "Dude" and/or great buddies with the party orc.  The analogy is a little stretched, granted.  To tie it back regarding, say, swearing, it is a part of finding your character's voice.  Wherein a string of "Shadow Earth" cursing may be appropriate for character A, it may detract from character B.

Oh, here's an example!  Oberon (as Ganelon or otherwise).  I think it's very much in-character for Oberon to have a colorful vocabulary!  But, I don't necessarily see him dropping f-bombs.  He can be vulgar and crass without them.  He can shock the listener without them.

Oberon spits.  "Would be your whore of a mother never parted her legs, nor I climbed between them!"

At last we are in agreement
Nice Oberon quote by the way mind if I pinch it?

[scottishstorm]

At last we are in agreement
Nice Oberon quote by the way mind if I pinch it?

I'd feel flattered! ;-)

[Klaus]

I'll rephrase, then.  It can be lazy! [/I]

Not swearing can also be lazy. The above mentioned characters would be a place where not swearing because you don't normally swear would be lazy.

Unless a character comes from a truly bizzare shadow, they will have some form of cursing, and it's a good bet that a fair number of those will translate directly as our own curses. Blasphemy less so, but scatological references will be curses in any language.