Amber not using ADRP

[finarvyn]

I know that there are quite a few ADRP sites out there (although not as many active ones as I'd like) and that ADRP encourages one to "house rule" things, so many variant rules sets become almost different rules entirely.

I'm curious about people using established non-ADRP rules sets, and how it worked out. (Links if you got 'em!)

For example, I know I've seen Amber run in several formats. (Links may be added later, since I don't have them handy at the moment.)
* GURPS Amber
* d20 Amber
* FUDGE Amber
* Unisystem Amber

What else?

[Jason D]

Before the ADRPG ever came out, I had run campaigns set in Amber using DragonQuest, Stormbringer/Call of Cthulhu, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

At one point in time, I sat down with a friend in Seattle and we sketched out most of an Amber port into the Storyteller system. Another guy I used to game with ran a longstanding campaign using Over the Edge, though I moved to town after it had wrapped up.

Call me heretical, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Amber setting that screams diceless. Erick's earlier designs for Amber incorporated dice, until he eventually abandoned them.

Given my druthers, I'd love to approach Amber with a fresh mandate to design it anew, keeping all options on the table. I always thought a card-based system would be especially appropriate, and worked one out for a one-shot Ambercon game that I never got to run.

[JRC]

Given my druthers, I'd love to approach Amber with a fresh mandate to design it anew, keeping all options on the table. I always thought a card-based system would be especially appropriate, and worked one out for a one-shot Ambercon game that I never got to run.

A card based game sounds really nice.  Didn't DeadLands use a card based system?  

THinking straight off the top of my head I guess a system could be to create the best poker hand you can out of the cards you are dealt.  The higher ranking you are the more cards you receive to select your poker hand of five.  So first place may receive 10 cards, fifth place 5.  If people are ganging up or a joint effort there will be a 'primary' character who receives additional cards depending on the number and ranking of their supporters.

Whoever has the best hand wins.

Of course other factors such as endurance, special powers etc can alter the number of cards you receive, and good/bad stuff could even force you to lose your worst/best cards.  Powers may allow to convert cards like change the suite or number.

I woud be intrigued to know what you card based system was.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I'll always remember one email conversation with Erick. His opinion was that People playing Amber with dice had not understood what Amber was about. I agree...
The only other system that worked well with Amber was Everway....

[finarvyn]

At one point in time, I sat down with a friend in Seattle and we sketched out most of an Amber port into the Storyteller system.

Love to look at that one. I'm not a huge Storyteller fan, but I like some aspects of the game and it would be fun to see it fit to Amber.

Call me heretical, but there's nothing intrinsic about the Amber setting that screams diceless. Erick's earlier designs for Amber incorporated dice, until he eventually abandoned them.

Agreed, but there is something sentimental and special to me about the way Erick did it. I think it could be fun in many different game systems, but the "official" one is neat because I didn't think a game would work diceless until I saw it.

[Jason D]

I woud be intrigued to know what you card based system was.

It was more than a decade ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it was more inspired by the Marvel SAGA game. I used the official French Amber Tarot deck, and assigned the suits as follows, with the following attributes (rated 1-10):

Swords - Might, which was combat stuff
Pentacles - Spirit, magic stuff
Cups - Resolve, endurance stuff
Wands - Wits, mental/social stuff

The deck set in the center of the table and everyone drew from it. The GM rarely did so, only for major NPCs or special conditions. Otherwise, tasks were simply given a difficulty and the players had to overcome it.

Characters had a hand size based on their power level (Oberon can hold seven cards, his children six, their children five, etc.). Special abilities and advantages let the character draw additional cards or treat cards in a special fashion.

For every action a character attempted they could spend a total of cards of an appropriate suit up or equal to their attribute, with the idea that you had to beat a difficulty. You would spend swords on a combat task, pentacles on a magic task, etc. If a card's value was too high (above your attribute), you could "burn it" for 1 point or throw it back for an extra card the next round.

Skills, unlike ADRPG, were actually codified as Qualities. These were things like Fencer, Gambler, Magician, Artist, Trickster, Brawler, Wrestler, Seducer, Sailor, Commander, Archer, Marksman, etc. Each was tied to a governing attribute. Characters got a bunch of these. These allowed cards of other suits to be spent. I think I had a "Novice +1/Journeyman +2/Master +3" rating for specialties... so if you had "Novice Fencer" you could spend swords and one more suit on any combat tasks, up to your Might attribute. A Journeyman could spend the required suit and two more, while a Master could spend any of the suits on a task.

I remember a lot of fun tricks which each Quality allowed (one per Quality), so that someone with Gambler could potentially bluff with a card played face-down, or trade a single card with someone else at the table (or the deck) if need be.

There was a Grand Master rank, which allowed +4. This was reserved for the best of a particular Quality, so only Benedict could be Grand Master Commander, for example. The only way to take that rank from them was to defeat them in their field of expertise, at which point they jumped down a notch back to Master.

I'm not sure, but I think I also allowed the Quality to bump up the attribute, so if a character had Might 6 and "Journeyman Fencer", they could spend any number of swords suits up to a total of 8 (6 + 2 = . Magic items and enchantments added similar bonuses, such as additional random cards, bumps to attributes, or increased mastery of Qualities.

For the life of me, I can't remember how I treated the court cards, though I suspect that I allowed some bonus based on the generation of the court... such as only Oberon could use Kings, only Elders could use Queens, and scions could use Jacks. As for the major arcana, I think they were along the lines of special effects relating to the nature of the exact card.

Powers and magic were similarly handled, with Qualities and a loose list of what you could do... I went back to Zelazny on these rather than assuming Erick's arrangement of powers and their basic/advanced scheme.

I should write it up again sometime (the file is long since gone). It's sufficiently different from both ADRPG and Marvel SAGA that it could stand as a game on its own, perhaps with a new setting tailor-made for it. I wonder how much it inherited from games like Lace & Steel or Psychosis, of which I had a very limited familiarity.

[finarvyn]

It was more than a decade ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it was more inspired by the Marvel SAGA game. I used the official French Amber Tarot deck...

1. Nice to see another use for the French Amber Tarot deck, except not many of us have them. (I remember sending money to Erick for the "English Translation" which apparently never got written. Ah, well.)

2. I like the SAGA game approach, although I confess that I played Dragonlance SAGA more than Marvel. I'll have to dust off the Marvel game to see how it differs.

3. Given Roger's love of tarot cards, basing an RPG on a tarot deck seems like an intriguing notion. My only reservation would be having enough cards for a larger group. I tried doing a random character generation once with playing cards and it was kind of neat but had its own special problems.....

Your post was pretty helpful and quite informative, but if you do reconstruct your old game, hopefully you'll share!

[warp9]

For example, I know I've seen Amber run in several formats. (Links may be added later, since I don't have them handy at the moment.)
* GURPS Amber
* d20 Amber
* FUDGE Amber
* Unisystem Amber

What else?

I've seen it done in HERO System.

[Jason D]

1. Nice to see another use for the French Amber Tarot deck, except not many of us have them. (I remember sending money to Erick for the "English Translation" which apparently never got written. Ah, well.)

You could use any standard Tarot deck. Aside from the court cards and the Arcana, the French deck is rather lackluster and traditional (symbols for 1-10 rather than full images). The notion would be that a new Amber game would ship with an enclosed card deck, and they'd be available separately for non-gamers.

2. I like the SAGA game approach, although I confess that I played Dragonlance SAGA more than Marvel. I'll have to dust off the Marvel game to see how it differs.

It's worth a look. Marvel SAGA is, hands down, my favorite superhero RPG system. No other game has approximated, for me, the feeling of playing comic-book adventures, and I'm talking something like 15 to 20 systems.

3. Given Roger's love of tarot cards, basing an RPG on a tarot deck seems like an intriguing notion. My only reservation would be having enough cards for a larger group.

With five players holding five cards each, you're dealing with 25 cards in play. Add two more players and the GM holding a hand or two for major NPCs, you're still only dealing with just over half the deck. Figure players will discard around 75% of their cards each turn, you're looking at a reshuffle every few rounds. That didn't seem to be out of line for a card-based mechanic.

It might fall apart with groups of more than eight players, but then, I think card frequency is the least of the problems created by that number of players.

[JRC]

THe potential problem with card based games of course is the size of the deck.  With half the deck in use some players may be hoarding, or lucky with the draw, certain cards which will starve all the other players of them.  Only one person can have the 10 of Swords for example.  In a combat heavy round the 'bruiser' may be getting all the magic cards and the magician all the combat cards.  Alternatively one 'bruiser' has hoarded all the power cards and the second 'bruiser' is left with nothing.  Whilst simple in principle a mechanism is needed to allow people to recycle cards so they can get the ones they need.  That or each card is 'generic' so this problem does not crop up.  Or everyone has their own deck.

In several board games I have seen each player has a set list of cards which they use to attempt tasks.  Once used they cannot reuse that card until the have exhausted their hand in which case the recollect all their cards.  THis prevents extreme bad/good draws, or the problems of hoarding by other players.  It also focuses the mind when to use your most powerful cards and when to play the weaker cards.  I guess here the stronger characters would have a higher proportion of powerful cards than the weaker characters, but the same number of cards, or dependant on endurance.

I realise this thread has veered off course considerably.  I apologise if it was me!

I have only seen Amber played in its normal format and have not seen other mechanisms been used to play it.  I am aware of other dice less RPGs but never played them.

[Jason D]

THe potential problem with card based games of course is the size of the deck.  With half the deck in use some players may be hoarding, or lucky with the draw, certain cards which will starve all the other players of them.  Only one person can have the 10 of Swords for example.  In a combat heavy round the 'bruiser' may be getting all the magic cards and the magician all the combat cards.  Alternatively one 'bruiser' has hoarded all the power cards and the second 'bruiser' is left with nothing.  

I might humbly suggest that the notion of withholding or wasting cards to prevent other players from getting them is very much in keeping with the adversarial nature inherent in the Amber setting.

To use your example:

• Benedict draws the 10 of Swords. He is the only one who can use it to full advantage, so he keeps it in his hand as a trump card (that's "trump" with a lowercase t).
• Corwin draws the 10 of Swords. He can burn it for a slight advantage, or he can try to modify the situation against Benedict so he can use it.
• Eric draws the 10 of Swords. He'll hold onto it forever to keep Corwin from having it.  
• Fiona draws the 10 of Swords. It's useless to her, but she doesn't want it to fall into the hands of one of her martial brothers, so she sits on it.
• Julian draws the 10 of Swords. He'd give it to Fiona if she could use it, but instead he'll burn it for a slight advantage just to spite his brothers.
• Random draws the 10 of Swords. He can't use it, but he uses his Gambler Quality to switch the card with another in Corwin's hand, helping his brother out in a fight, risking that Corwin will be able to use it.

Most card-based mechanics have some element of hoarding, burning, or "recovering" spent cards.

[jibbajibba]

It was more than a decade ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but it was more inspired by the Marvel SAGA game. I used the official French Amber Tarot deck, and assigned the suits as follows, with the following attributes (rated 1-10):

Swords - Might, which was combat stuff
Pentacles - Spirit, magic stuff
Cups - Resolve, endurance stuff
Wands - Wits, mental/social stuff

The deck set in the center of the table and everyone drew from it. The GM rarely did so, only for major NPCs or special conditions. Otherwise, tasks were simply given a difficulty and the players had to overcome it.

Characters had a hand size based on their power level (Oberon can hold seven cards, his children six, their children five, etc.). Special abilities and advantages let the character draw additional cards or treat cards in a special fashion.

For every action a character attempted they could spend a total of cards of an appropriate suit up or equal to their attribute, with the idea that you had to beat a difficulty. You would spend swords on a combat task, pentacles on a magic task, etc. If a card's value was too high (above your attribute), you could "burn it" for 1 point or throw it back for an extra card the next round.

Skills, unlike ADRPG, were actually codified as Qualities. These were things like Fencer, Gambler, Magician, Artist, Trickster, Brawler, Wrestler, Seducer, Sailor, Commander, Archer, Marksman, etc. Each was tied to a governing attribute. Characters got a bunch of these. These allowed cards of other suits to be spent. I think I had a "Novice +1/Journeyman +2/Master +3" rating for specialties... so if you had "Novice Fencer" you could spend swords and one more suit on any combat tasks, up to your Might attribute. A Journeyman could spend the required suit and two more, while a Master could spend any of the suits on a task.

I remember a lot of fun tricks which each Quality allowed (one per Quality), so that someone with Gambler could potentially bluff with a card played face-down, or trade a single card with someone else at the table (or the deck) if need be.

There was a Grand Master rank, which allowed +4. This was reserved for the best of a particular Quality, so only Benedict could be Grand Master Commander, for example. The only way to take that rank from them was to defeat them in their field of expertise, at which point they jumped down a notch back to Master.

I'm not sure, but I think I also allowed the Quality to bump up the attribute, so if a character had Might 6 and "Journeyman Fencer", they could spend any number of swords suits up to a total of 8 (6 + 2 = . Magic items and enchantments added similar bonuses, such as additional random cards, bumps to attributes, or increased mastery of Qualities.

For the life of me, I can't remember how I treated the court cards, though I suspect that I allowed some bonus based on the generation of the court... such as only Oberon could use Kings, only Elders could use Queens, and scions could use Jacks. As for the major arcana, I think they were along the lines of special effects relating to the nature of the exact card.

Powers and magic were similarly handled, with Qualities and a loose list of what you could do... I went back to Zelazny on these rather than assuming Erick's arrangement of powers and their basic/advanced scheme.

I should write it up again sometime (the file is long since gone). It's sufficiently different from both ADRPG and Marvel SAGA that it could stand as a game on its own, perhaps with a new setting tailor-made for it. I wonder how much it inherited from games like Lace & Steel or Psychosis, of which I had a very limited familiarity.

That is pretty sweet. Tarot wise you should swap Paentacles with Cups. Pentacles are Earth, resolve, endurance and wealth whilst Cups are dreams , magic and mystery.

I would definitely use a deck with the standard suit cards (as I did for my own in game tarot deck http://www.jibbajibba.com/amber/trumpreading/ ) and use the court cards as the elders so that you can get assistance from them or use them to interceed in some way. This would assume that you play new characters of course but that the elder Amberites are 'in play' .
I think that would be pretty niffty.

[finarvyn]

Or, for regular playing cards, I use:
Hearts = Endurance
Clubs = Warfare
Spades = Strength
Diamond = Psyche

[Croaker]

In several board games I have seen each player has a set list of cards which they use to attempt tasks.  Once used they cannot reuse that card until the have exhausted their hand in which case the recollect all their cards.  THis prevents extreme bad/good draws, or the problems of hoarding by other players.  It also focuses the mind when to use your most powerful cards and when to play the weaker cards.  I guess here the stronger characters would have a higher proportion of powerful cards than the weaker characters, but the same number of cards, or dependant on endurance.

I'd say Endurance has a great thing to do here.

If cards using is a sort of exhaustion, even if it is just exhaustion of ressources and possibilities, then endurance can represent it

Say, your attribute can represent what you can play, with Endurance determining hand size and/or refresh.
Similarly, stuff could add/substract from your total.

[Jason D]

Or, for regular playing cards, I use:
Hearts = Endurance
Clubs = Warfare
Spades = Strength
Diamond = Psyche

I'd switch the attribution for Spades and Clubs, as "spade" derives from "spada/spatha", or sword.

Clubs seem more strengthy, as well.