What kind of monsters should or could exist in an Amber game that would be a viable opponent to PCs?
What should their stats be like?
RPGPundit
Interesting you should mention it. In "Phases of Tir-na Nog'th" the "monsters" are turning out to be a significant power from the ancient days before Amber became prominent. The Unicorn is specifically mentioned as one of that group, and there are evidently more. The PC's have met one and have a trump of another but haven't contacted her yet.
The PC's have located a book titled "My Nights among the Monsters" by Dworkin... and erotic memoir.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat kind of monsters should or could exist in an Amber game that would be a viable opponent to PCs?
Family members.
Other than that? I don't make anything else a viable opponent to the PCs. An annoyance? Sure. A challenge? Maybe.
It's like ... there's this woodpecker that keeps coming back to attack my house. Frickin' pest. I haven't really thought through how to deal with him. For right now, I open the windows and yell, and it skedaddles.
I'll eventually probably find a
better solution. I know that the woodpecker is in some sense "winning" here. I haven't adapted my tactics to the situation ... I let it have every advantage: it can fly in and fly out, and I'm constantly in a reactive mode that lets it get little shots in.
Is that woodpecker a viable opponent to me? Oh hells no. If I were motivated I could go out, buy a gun, lay in wait and then
kaboom!, no more woodpecker. But why on earth would I bother to do that? I'd probably leave a big freakin' scar in the side of my house ... way bigger than the woodpecker will create in its entire life-cycle. Plus, my neighbors would get all pissed off ... and I'd have to buy a gun. Sheesh.
So, imagine a great big freakin' death-knight. It beats your Prince of Amber bloody, and then throws him in a dungeon to torture him later. Is that meant to be a viable opponent? Eh. The Prince breaks out, burns down the knight's castle, steals the mystic gem and boogies.
Yeah, the knight has all the advantages that the Prince can offer: a level playing-field, a straight-up combat, presumably superior weapons, knowledge of the terrain, etc., etc. So the Prince takes some bruises, but in the scheme of things ... who cares? He could summon up an army of warriors and storm the castle and kill the night, but why on earth would he bother? He could armor himself and return with a sword capable of hurting the undead fiend, and win the combat, but why on earth would he bother? He can just go about his life with the death-knight as a sort of low-level annoyance. What hold does anyone other than Family have over a Prince of Amber that they could secure his focussed attention for long enough to be considered an enemy?
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Well, what if a family member were using monsters for this purpose?
Does that change things?
Quote from: OthaWell, what if a family member were using monsters for this purpose?
Does that change things?
It means that you use the family member's stats for said monster ... same as if they were using a sword, submarine or cruise-missile.
I suppose the monster can be "part of the opposition" in the same way that Sugar-Coated Frosted Chocolate Bombs is "part of this nutritious breakfast" ... it is on the plate, in proximity to the things that make that breakfast nutritious, even if it is not actually contributing anything much on its own.
I'm not sure that I agree with TonyLB's death-knight = not a challenge example. If a PC ends up beaten bloody and thrown in a dungeon then I'd say he's been challenged quite adequately regardless of how soon he manages to escape. I also don't buy into the whole Amberite = invincible ethos which oozes from Wujcik's take on Amber, so being beaten bloody is a serious issue.
Unless I'm actively trying to kill off my players, which I never am, then I'm always going to assume that they will eventually overcome the threats they face. In that case all opponants are ultimately temporary, and the longevity of a threat isn't necessarily a factor in determining its relevence.
Viable opponants in my games are anything which forces a PC to significantly deviate from a planned course of action. If they are working to a deadline then a large group of mortal swordsmen can be a threat. Even if easily beaten it takes tme and effort to work through or around them - time which the PCs may not have.
On a broader scale, assuming the PCs have their own goals in life, the BBEG is a threat which forces them to deviate from their carefree goals and confront the problems facing Amber/Chaos/a quiet life.
In terms of actual monsters, I make liberal use of classic mythological creatures. Aside from the Unicorn, Corwin exhibits concern at the presence of even an elderly dragon, werewolves in large numbers are a danger to Amberites and fairy creatures almost trap Corwin on his way to Chaos.
I find that within Amber itself any petty bureaucrat or member of castle staff can be a reasonable opponant. Players can't go killing people on a whim in such a setting.
Quote from: TonyLBSo the Prince takes some bruises, but in the scheme of things ... who cares? He could summon up an army of warriors and storm the castle and kill the night, but why on earth would he bother? He could armor himself and return with a sword capable of hurting the undead fiend, and win the combat, but why on earth would he bother? He can just go about his life with the death-knight as a sort of low-level annoyance. What hold does anyone other than Family have over a Prince of Amber that they could secure his focussed attention for long enough to be considered an enemy?
You're a Prince of Amber and some shlub comes along, beats you up, and kidnaps you but you don't care?
The weakness has been noted, and will be utilized.
Quote from: James McMurrayYou're a Prince of Amber and some shlub comes along, beats you up, and kidnaps you but you don't care?
The weakness has been noted, and will be utilized.
'dat's cool. So if you have monsters and the like that are important in your games, what kind are they? What type of stats do you assign them.
Unfortunately, I don't get to play or run Amber. I was just remarkingon what I thought was an extremely un-Amberite attitude.
If I did have non-Amberites who were capable of threatening a Prince, they'd probably be something similar to that mage who liked to throw flowers in the Merlin series. Someone who, on their own, is no match for a prepared Amberite, but because of some Good Stuff they've got going for them they can prove a difficulty, especially if they're acting alongside other things that are troubling the character. For example, the guy in the Merlin is a really damn fine wizard... for a human. Alone he'd be a morning snack. Give him the Keep of Four Worlds or whatever it was called and he's a badass with a badass power source who is now capable of challenging an unprepared Amberite sorceror. Now give that sorcerer a wayward brother, missing father, messed up mother, rogue magitech supercomputer, and angry chick with paralytic bite to deal with and suddenly our wizard is a dire threat.
I could also see including otherworldy monsters as threats. Things from beyond the Courts of Chaos, or blood spirits that were created when the Pattern was damaged. Depending on whether it was to be a campaign or a side trek would determine their stats. If they're a side trek they'd be at or just below Amber level. If they're meant to be an entire campaign they'd have above Amber stats and not be beatable without some major prepping, planning, and marshalling of resources.
Finally, I can definitely see monsters roaming through various shadows that would be a match for an Amberite, even in their specialty. Monsters so big the best swordsman can't even scratch their hide, Cthulu-esque beasts with uber mind powers, etc. For the most part though, those foes would have very specific weaknesses. For instance, the Super Beast has no defenses against magic, and can make for a really sweet rug if you can survive the onslaught long enough to get a death spell off. Or the Others have extremely fragile bodies, so if you can avoid becoming their puppet you can skewer them easily.
Here's a formula I came up with about ten years ago when determining what is a threat for a group of PCs, stat-wise:
Add all of the player characters' stats, divide by twenty, use the result to build a creature, person, people or thing, using the artifact building rules.
Monster-wise, I have to admit being tempted to use cthullhu inspired creatures but I've never gotten around to doing that (I like the idea but can't bring myself to violate the setting so much, besides I'm not familiar enough with the Cthullhu mythos).
I've used monsters from the horror rpg KULT, but only in a cross-over campaign that I ran a long time ago.
On the whole Cthulhuesque beastie side, I've always found it slightly amusing that an Amberite could quite easily bump into such a beast, or a god, or some great behemoth, or anything of that ilk which could squash said Amberite with little or no effort. Certainly the Amberite could walk to the shadow next door where this creature has no power, but that is a solution to a specific entity and not the general problem (the next shadow will most likely have an analogous entity of its own).
For all of their power, an Amberite in shadow must be prepared to encounter things that he simply cannot handle alone. Moreover such things might have a relatively mundane appearance, so unless he knows that area of shadow fairly well it pays to be on his best behaviour.
From time to time it helps to remind players of these little realities.
Quote from: TrevelyanOn the whole Cthulhuesque beastie side, I've always found it slightly amusing that an Amberite could quite easily bump into such a beast, or a god, or some great behemoth, or anything of that ilk which could squash said Amberite with little or no effort.
Actually, it's a bit of a philosophical question whether an Amberite can walk to a shadow that contains something he cannot conceive (e.g. a cthulhu-beasty with twenty-seven dimensions and a pointy spleen).
The possibility that Amberites are protected from shadow-opposition by sheer arrogance (i.e. they cannot conceive of a worthy opponent, and therefore cannot travel to a place where one would be found) has not escaped me :D
Quote from: TonyLBThe possibility that Amberites are protected from shadow-opposition by sheer arrogance (i.e. they cannot conceive of a worthy opponent, and therefore cannot travel to a place where one would be found) has not escaped me :D
I like that. But then again, other amberites could be looking for forces and powers in shadow that could annihilate their brothers/sisters. Or are they arrogant about their siblings' competence as well that they wouldn't find something they can't handle either?
Even better, they'd probably end up finding yet another family member, or potentially a Lord of Chaos, rather than a monster...
I believe that the novels reflect that Amberites traveling in shadow know they can find things stronger/more powerful than themselves and that they could actually be killed by a monster or a random encounter in Shadow... What do you think?
I tend to use a 0-point enemy for Shadow encounters, which means at the most a shadowling would have 75 points in one of the stats. It seems fair.
Quote from: Nihilistic MindI believe that the novels reflect that Amberites traveling in shadow know they can find things stronger/more powerful than themselves and that they could actually be killed by a monster or a random encounter in Shadow... What do you think?
I think that's a fairly accurate assessment of the situation. It also seems to be the case that Amberites don't cnotrol every feature of the worlds through which they travel, but that searching for a world with a certain shade of sky might well lead them to a world where the sky is the right colour but the ground is home to all manner of nasty beasties.
Speed seems to play a part in this process, with hellriding being more dangerous, but if Amberites controlled every feature of every shadow that they entered, even at a leisurely pace, then a sizable chunk of every book would make little sense. The "Royal Way" method of shadow walking works well with this hypothesis - if you travel very slowly you can control more of the geographical and other features. Even so, the fact that shadow walking can be dangerous demonstrates that Amberites can encounter serious threats whether they can envisage them or not.
QuoteI tend to use a 0-point enemy for Shadow encounters, which means at the most a shadowling would have 75 points in one of the stats. It seems fair.
Strangely enough, I do exactly the same.
75 points seems AWFULLY high... unless that is the highest possible score ever, the strongest/baddest/toughest/keenest critter in a thousand shadows.
Well, this means everything else it at human rank ;)
Quote from: Otha75 points seems AWFULLY high... unless that is the highest possible score ever, the strongest/baddest/toughest/keenest critter in a thousand shadows.
Yes, in fact a shadowling based on a 0-point stat breakdown would mean that they achieve amber-rank in all stats if they are completely balanced, which is not a common thing at all. I usually use it for an elder amberite's shadow, or simply a very powerful being/creature.
Most shadowlings are human ranked in my games, so are most chaosians although they might have one to two ranks that are at chaos rank. I base Chaos Lords on 25 to 50 points. Elder amberites are usually built with 150-200 points, in my current campaign. The PCs are certainly on par with them, for the most part, although they always over-estimate them ;)
75 points in strength, for example, can make quite an impression on the players, especially if the creature/person is encountered in Shadow. It also means that that NPC has human rank in all other stats and no sorcery or conjuration or any sort of minor power.
Since the players don't know the NPC's stats, they wouldn't assume to defeat it by other means and tend to assume it is more powerful than them, when in fact it is a challenge that would be dealt with fairly easily if they approached the situation differently.
Things out of shadow should be able to defeat and even kill an amberite (unlikely yet possible), but they should definitely be easy to dismiss if the players are creative enough.
Player Characters shouldn't encounter such a shadowling every session, but once in a while one should appear. Especially when an NPC uses the Pattern to put something in the PCs way, or if the PCs carry a lot of baggage... I mean Bad Stuff. :p
Shadow is infinite. If I can imagine something I can find it in Shadow given enough time.
Therefore, there are plenty of shadow dwellers that can beat Amberites.
I personally belong to the Amberites are mortal school. If you get an Amberite in bed drugged with an elephantine does of tranquiliser you can slit their throat just like anyone else.
As a player if I want to remove an Amberite rival I will use guile not force. A beautiful assasin is more likely to be able to seduce drug and kill Corwin than a hairy Ogre.
The essence of a decent challenge in an Amber game seems to me not to be something that can only be overcome with an excess of force or skill, but rather something that has an excess of force or skill and so requires the PCs to find a new approach.
A monster with 75 pts in one attribute and the rest at Human is a good example of such a challenge - if you try to meet it strength for strength then you'll probably loose, but working around it's area of expertise leave it weak. Although obviously a 75/H/H/H attribute spread with no other powers is a very one sided example.
Like Nihilistic Mind, I only apply this principle to relatively major encuonters or weaker NPCs of some influence (potent shadow sorcerers with a 10/H/C/H attribute spread, Sorcery, Conjuration, Power Words and a magic item or two, for example). The average mook in shadow just has H/H/H/H and no powers, while a significant NPC from a place of power (Amber, Chaos or campaign specific location) would be built as an individual.
BRANDEMBURGO CORNUDO!!!
MAYbe I'll EXplaI n laTEr...
Dragon King of Athas and the Internet vet both echo my thoughts. This is where an obliquely thinking imagination comes in handy. To create villains, monsters, and obstacles for your players is every GMs need. 1000s of movies, books and others for source ideas, as it is said, all possibilities exist in Shadow.
I have too many to mention and more than 1/2 haven't even reared their ugly heads ... yet.
(as far as the death knight goes... I used one once, I thought a strong one. and it was. but if you don't have a chess player mentality for storyline arc and character / npc possible plots & progression, the players will always find an easy way to mow down your villains. ("Oh, I shouldn't have teamed the 'solar flame girl' and the 'wolverine' type pcs against what would have been a great vampire villain vs. most other heroes.) sun burn & shiskabob.
TonyLB - The possibility that Amberites are protected from shadow-opposition by sheer arrogance (i.e. they cannot conceive of a worthy opponent, and therefore cannot travel to a place where one would be found) has not escaped me --- OK, Amberites walk, run, ride, whatever.... to their destination usually, what is to be said that they don't run into 'inconceivable' things on the way there.... like-wise, they don't (I'm sure) subcosciously endetail the ENTIRE world they are traversing to. There are also many things in Shadow that travel, and may find THEM, and the ever present family members or beings of Chaos that may send Guislings, jabberwocks, fire-angels, or whatever after them.
It seems that the difficulty lies in creation of the villain in question or it's actual play, which would you say it is?