Amber Is Not a Storygame

[TristramEvans]

I propose we abandon all this nonsense and go back to calling everything Fantasy Wargames. If only to piss off GW.

[vytzka]

I think talking about RPGs pisses GW off more, because they seem to insist RPGs are dead for some reason.

[vytzka]

What we probably need is a third term - either a new one for the more extreme storygames (shared narration games?) or a new one for all the things in the middle like HQ and BW (hybrids?).

HQBWrds*.

You need to trendy up your jargon, peepoids.



*pronounced "hybrids"

[Benoist]

Characters in Amber are Amberites. That means they have the power to alter worlds, gravity, circumstances at will. The point that's constantly being missed or consciously overlooked by people dragging Amber into storygames debates is that Amberites can do such things because that's what they are IN the setting. That's what the CHARACTERS THEMSELVES can do. Therefore, it is part of the immersion into role playing an Amberite to be able to modify some things about the environment and the like.

Not so when you are some mortal lambda adventurer and get to spend hero points to stay alive "because metagame/narrative". There's a fundamental difference here. Are people really that dumb?

[jibbajibba]

Characters in Amber are Amberites. That means they have the power to alter worlds, gravity, circumstances at will. The point that's constantly being missed or consciously overlooked by people dragging Amber into storygames debates is that Amberites can do such things because that's what they are IN the setting. That's what the CHARACTERS THEMSELVES can do. Therefore, it is part of the immersion into role playing an Amberite to be able to modify some things about the environment and the like.

Not so when you are some mortal lambda adventurer and get to spend hero points to stay alive "because metagame/narrative". There's a fundamental difference here. Are people really that dumb?

That is what I siad up there
Caveat you get to create allies in chargen or to create alliances with powerful NPCs. That is a narativist mechanic but like I said up there as far as the spectrum goes Ambere is very much on the 'non-storygame' side of the continum.

But don't be mean to Hero points James Bond 007 is still one of my favourite games.

[Jason D]

I must have a different copy of Amber than the rest of you, or maybe there's some definition of "storygame" that I'm not familiar with, but I think that by most accounts, Amber Diceless Role-Playing is very much a storygame.

Ultimately, I don't give a rat's ass about nomenclature, but it sounds like people are talking about a completely different game.

One of the aspects of Stuff is inherently a narrative mechanic. Narrative events happen to characters because of their Stuff at a degree and frequency to be determined by the GM.

Go back and read "Building on to Amber" on page 79 of the core rulebook. That section could be dropped verbatim into an indie shared-narrative game.

Go back and review GM sections on page 104 about character success and failure, or the lengthy section called "Story Composition" on pages 122-124 that talks explicitly about crafting stories for players, complete with narrative hooks, conflict, character development, closure, and even a moral resolution.

Later, the GM section discusses shaping the campaign around the player characters, and the book ends with a discussion of dumping the rules entirely.

A quote, just because it feels relevant:

As you've seen, Amber has been played across the country since 1985. Frankly, most of the Game Masters were winging it, since details were sketchy, and rules were almost nonexistent. In effect, each Game Master invented their own version of Amber and the rules needed to role-play.

In almost every case, something interesting happened. The rules part started to disappear, and the Amber part got more important.

[jibbajibba]

I must have a different copy of Amber than the rest of you, or maybe there's some definition of "storygame" that I'm not familiar with, but I think that by most accounts, Amber Diceless Role-Playing is very much a storygame.

Ultimately, I don't give a rat's ass about nomenclature, but it sounds like people are talking about a completely different game.

One of the aspects of Stuff is inherently a narrative mechanic. Narrative events happen to characters because of their Stuff at a degree and frequency to be determined by the GM.

Go back and read "Building on to Amber" on page 79 of the core rulebook. That section could be dropped verbatim into an indie shared-narrative game.

Go back and review GM sections on page 104 about character success and failure, or the lengthy section called "Story Composition" on pages 122-124 that talks explicitly about crafting stories for players, complete with narrative hooks, conflict, character development, closure, and even a moral resolution.

Later, the GM section discusses shaping the campaign around the player characters, and the book ends with a discussion of dumping the rules entirely.

A quote, just because it feels relevant:

read my earlier post amber is a trad game with no dice that puts a huge emphasis on story. however there are no in game mechanics that give players narative control. stuff is a tool for gms to determine the outcome of some events but it gives no narative control to players .
storygames aren't games that soley focus on hooks,the importance of plot etc. they specifically share narative mechanics between players and gm amber has no such structure

[Jason D]

read my earlier post amber is a trad game with no dice that puts a huge emphasis on story. however there are no in game mechanics that give players narative control. stuff is a tool for gms to determine the outcome of some events but it gives no narative control to players .
storygames aren't games that soley focus on hooks,the importance of plot etc. they specifically share narative mechanics between players and gm amber has no such structure

Again, are we looking at the same book?

Page 79, "Building on to Amber" contains plenty of suggestions as to how players are encouraged to add to the narrative, creating NPCs and fleshing them out and even running encounters without the GM.

Page 234 guides players and GMs to dumping the rules and even the role of the GM, immersing themselves in pure story.

I have very little doubt that if anyone asked Erick Wujcik if Amber was a storygame, he would have taken pride that it was one of the first.

[Panjumanju]

I have very little doubt that if anyone asked Erick Wujcik if Amber was a storygame, he would have taken pride that it was one of the first.

Well, at least there's a dissenting opinion...but my feathers are really ruffled at you suggesting - in an Internet argument - what someone now long dead would have said in support of your claim.

Quoting written work is great, but come on...

//Panjumanju

[finarvyn]

Well, at least there's a dissenting opinion...but my feathers are really ruffled at you suggesting - in an Internet argument - what someone now long dead would have said in support of your claim.

Quoting written work is great, but come on...

//Panjumanju

On the other hand, Erick did suggest that Game Masters consider throwing out the rules altogether. That certainly suggests a "storygame" to me, as the mechanic would be gone.

While that doesn't say that Erick wanted Amber to be a storygame, clearly he imagined that it could be.

[Panjumanju]

On the other hand, Erick did suggest that Game Masters consider throwing out the rules altogether. That certainly suggests a "storygame" to me, as the mechanic would be gone.

While that doesn't say that Erick wanted Amber to be a storygame, clearly he imagined that it could be.

Fair enough. You may well be right. Jdurall, also, may be entirely correct.

However it is my understanding that even storygames have structure. To abandon all structure is something apart from both storygames and RPGs of the more traditional variety.

I feel very uncomfortable with claims of "What Erick would have..." Again, these claims may well be right, but...

From my reading of his material, what I always gathered from the notion of throwing out the rules, and many of the passages that jdurall was citing, was a sense of whittling down the rules to the point where you don't know they're there anymore; finding a way to work with the game as a perspective, rather than a such-a-such-a page number; transcending the medium.

Perhaps that does not suggest a proper RPG, but I'm not sure it's a storygame, either - maybe something third, some alien hobby that was only glimpsed at in the text.

My impression is that if Erick Wujcik had written down only half his ideas, we'd be a lot richer in the mind, now.

//Panjumanju

[TristramEvans]

On the other hand, Erick did suggest that Game Masters consider throwing out the rules altogether. That certainly suggests a "storygame" to me, as the mechanic would be gone.

While that doesn't say that Erick wanted Amber to be a storygame, clearly he imagined that it could be.

Really? Because that doesn't sound all too different from this quote:

The secret we should never let the Gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."

I don't think using little or no rules has anything specifically to do with Storygames. In fact, most story games have much more rigid rules, and don't broke with any of that old school roleplaying "Rulings vs Rules" stuff. Storygames distinguish themselves from RPGs more in the way they alter the traditional dynamics being player and character, and GM and players.

[Jason D]

Storygames distinguish themselves from RPGs more in the way they alter the traditional dynamics being player and character, and GM and players.

Let's replace one small part of that sentence:

Amber distinguishes itself from RPGs more in the way it alters the traditional dynamics being player and character, and GM and players

Is that a true statement?

[Panjumanju]

Is that a true statement?

It's a true statement, but correlation is not causation. Both Amber and the sub-genre loosely defined as storygames took RPGs in innovative directions. It does not follow that Amber is a storygame.

You have probably the best rolplaying pedigree to argue your point, and it does have merit, but you're being pretty ungraceful about it. So, come on, how is Amber like a storygame?

//Panjumanju

[TristramEvans]

Is that a true statement?

No idea. Going by what I've read online, no.