Amber Heartbreaker

[Evermasterx]

Okay, suppose for a moment that I subscribe to the "more is better" style of ADRP design. How many attributes is the "right" number?

At what point do we dust off a copy of RuneQuest, list off all of the skills in the book, and call each its own attribute. Or take AD&D and let each class represent an attribute -- fighting, magic use, cleric/healing, nature/druid, monk/martial arts, thief/sneaking, assassin/poisons, and so on.

I'm not just trying to be a pain here. I'm curious as to what is the optimal number.

I agree with you: I like a lot the minimalist style of Erick. Absolutely wouldn't like skills and multiplication of attributes. It will be no more the same game.

[warp9]

I agree with you: I like a lot the minimalist style of Erick. Absolutely wouldn't like skills and multiplication of attributes. It will be no more the same game.

There is a lot about Amber DRPG that I like.

But I've never been happy with the "rules-lite" angle. I'd probably lean more toward something along the lines of  GURPS:Amber myself.

[finarvyn]

I actually am a fan of the GURPS Amber approach. The character points are the same and you can use the skills and such from GURPS pretty well in an Amber campaign.

[Evermasterx]

There is a lot about Amber DRPG that I like.

But I've never been happy with the "rules-lite" angle. I'd probably lean more toward something along the lines of  GURPS:Amber myself.

Of course "de gustibus disputandum non est", and maybe that a lot of "optional rules" may satisfy everybody.

[warp9]

I actually am a fan of the GURPS Amber approach. The character points are the same and you can use the skills and such from GURPS pretty well in an Amber campaign.

So in terms of the GURPS:Amber approach, I'm thinking very high default base stats (Amber level) in strength and health.

I'm not sure about intelligence and dexterity though. Although it seems that Amberites might have an edge over normal shadow humans in this area, I didn't see Corwin depicted as "spider-man" or "brainiac" so I'm not sure about giving them extremely high dexterity and super-high intelligence.

Also, given that some of their points are going to go for stuff like Pattern Imprint, whereas a normal GURPS character has his points to spend on stuff like skills, I would tend to favor some extra points earmarked for skills. This would be especially necessary if we want the PCs to be far more skilled in combat than normal mortals (having a super-humanly high dexterity and intelligence would also accomplish this same result, but, as I said above, I just don't think that really fits). These skill points could even be modified based on the starting age of the character. Younger characters have a "puppy factor," but a few less skill points.


Finally, I'm not sure how the auction would really fit into this scheme. Frankly though, I wouldn't be too opposed to just keeping everybody's attributes secret until you actually test each other. If you want to be the family version of Benedict, buy lots of Dex, and Int, as attributes, and put a lot of points into skills like Sword-fighting and tactics. And, if you were willing to go further than anybody else, you'll be the top dog.

The actual reputation of "best in your generation" will follow from the events in the game.

And if you wanted to establish some initial (pregame) reputation, you could play out some kind of flash backs, going to the characters' initial meetings before the game.

[finarvyn]

A couple of neat parallels between GURPS and ADRP:

1. Both systems suggest 100 Character points to create a character.

2. Both systems rely on 4 major attributes.*
Psyche = IQ (good fit)
Endurance = Health (good fit)
Strength = Strength (exact fit)
Warfare = Dexterity (sort of... maybe?)

* These are from memory. Pardon if I mis-recalled any....

[warp9]

My knowledge applies to 3rd edition GURPS, but there may be changes in 4th that would make it different.

A couple of neat parallels between GURPS and ADRP:

1. Both systems suggest 100 Character points to create a character.

True

2. Both systems rely on 4 major attributes.*
Psyche = IQ (good fit)
Endurance = Health (good fit)
Strength = Strength (exact fit)
Warfare = Dexterity (sort of... maybe?)

* These are from memory. Pardon if I mis-recalled any....

Nope you didn't mis-recall any; you got them all. But I differ a bit in your assessment of how the abilities relate to Amber abilities. . . .

IQ is pretty broad to be a real fit for Psyche. It covers stuff like Will-Power, and intuition, but it goes further than that. Having a high IQ also helps with expertise in skills like lock-picking, and strategy. Given my complaints about Amber attributes, like Warfare, being too general, the fact that I can go along with this broad GURPS attribute might sound like a contradiction. My response is this: I'll admit IQ is a bit broad for my tastes, however, it becomes more workable because you can get more specific control in GURPS by buying various advantages (like Strong-Will or Weak-Will), to customize the character's mental abilities. And as far as being an overly broad attribute, at least all the IQ stuff is mental, which would all seem to go with the concept of having a super-mind. IMO, it makes some sense that having your brain enhanced could impact everything from Will Power to the ability to think tactically.

In GURPS terms, Brand and Benedict would both probably be among the best minds of the family, its just that their skill sets would be quite a bit different. Also Brand would have powers and probably a few levels of Strong Will, whereas Benedict would have a much higher Dexterity, and of course massive skill relating to combat.


I agree, Health is a good fit for Endurance.


And Strength is a good fit for Strength although, in GURPS,  Martial Arts is a dex based skill, and does not have any direct relation to Str


Dexterity is different in a number of significant ways from Warfare. Dexterity covers most combat skills, but it has nothing to do with the intellectual aspects of combat (such as strategy and tactics). Dexterity covers stuff like Martial Arts, and gymnastics. Again, I like the GURPS dexterity better than trying to pack strategy + combat skill into a single attribute.


I would dump the Amber attributes in favor of the GURPS attributes, and cover specific aspects of abilities such as warfare with various skills.

[jibbajibba]

So in terms of the GURPS:Amber approach, I'm thinking very high default base stats (Amber level) in strength and health.

I'm not sure about intelligence and dexterity though. Although it seems that Amberites might have an edge over normal shadow humans in this area, I didn't see Corwin depicted as "spider-man" or "brainiac" so I'm not sure about giving them extremely high dexterity and super-high intelligence.

Also, given that some of their points are going to go for stuff like Pattern Imprint, whereas a normal GURPS character has his points to spend on stuff like skills, I would tend to favor some extra points earmarked for skills. This would be especially necessary if we want the PCs to be far more skilled in combat than normal mortals (having a super-humanly high dexterity and intelligence would also accomplish this same result, but, as I said above, I just don't think that really fits). These skill points could even be modified based on the starting age of the character. Younger characters have a "puppy factor," but a few less skill points.


Finally, I'm not sure how the auction would really fit into this scheme. Frankly though, I wouldn't be too opposed to just keeping everybody's attributes secret until you actually test each other. If you want to be the family version of Benedict, buy lots of Dex, and Int, as attributes, and put a lot of points into skills like Sword-fighting and tactics. And, if you were willing to go further than anybody else, you'll be the top dog.

The actual reputation of "best in your generation" will follow from the events in the game.

And if you wanted to establish some initial (pregame) reputation, you could play out some kind of flash backs, going to the characters' initial meetings before the game.

Loosing the auction in some flavour would be a shame though. I ran my current game's auction as a blind 3 step one and it worked fine and characters stats are not revealed until they meet, and I even run flashback sessions parallel to the current sessions (the strength os the wiki model) so obviously I agree with most of what you say.

I also have a skill system which seems a bit nuts until you play it and then it seems natural and simple. Skills have as many points as you like in them with certain declared thresholds and are often used in comparison with another character's skill or against a static target, so  working out what happened in a forest clearing might need 25 in tracking, if you have more that that you get the detail, a lot more you get uber detail and less you get well less and if you didn't buy tracking ... tough. very simple.

[Malleus Aforethought]

One option would be to create a set of Partial Powers for attributes. Also, remember that Corwin said that he was afraid to face Benedict in either armed or unarmed combat due to his mastery of warfare. I tend to divide Warfare vs. Strength martial arts into lines like kendo and aikido being under Warfare, while sumai or tae kuon do would fall under strength. There's a huge difference between fencing and other forms of armed combat as well. One of the best fencers I've met was a hugely fat man who could hardly be called "dexterous" under most circumstances.

Alternatively, you could create a series of advantages with relatively high point costs which give specific advantages, i.e., blades, strategy, tactics, intelligence collection, etc. The Artifact and Creatures powers try to break this down somewhat (unsuccessfully, I think) . As alternative to that, you could auction off these advantages, possibly with minimum bids, and those that weren't bought would fall to NPCs. So you could have a brilliant Shadow general who could threaten Amber under the right circumstances. Such as system would also account for Caine's reputation with the dagger. He doesn't need to be the best swordsman and general to be the most dangerous man with a dagger in the circumstances.