TheRPGSite

I hope not to be tarred and feathered for this, but I was curious about how the Amber DRPG system would work if I kicked out Roger Zelazny. So, I retooled the system to fit another science fiction author, A. E. Van Vogt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._E._van_Vogt. It's not much of a modification - I just had to switch out the Powers and change a few terms to fit the theme. Otherwise, Erick Wujcik's system works out remarkably well without Zelazny.

Although he was not Zelazny's contemporary, I chose Van Vogt because his main subject was superhumans, and his plots always had similar conspiracy and twist elements as Zelazny's writing.

I'm four sessions into running a game of this, and although it is less parallel-dimensions and more space-opera, I feel it still retains the feel and strengths of the system.

//Panjumanju

AEVV Space Amber, Powers & Changes to the Amber DRPG

These are the rules for a science fiction roleplaying game based on the novels and short stories of Canadian golden-age SF giant A. E. Van Vogt. Its structure is based on the Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game by Eric Wujcik, with only a few modifications in nomenclature, and replacement of Zelazny’s book’s Powers for Van Vogt’s book’s Powers.

Statistics: The game Statistics of Strength, Endurance, Psyche, Warfare, remain the same. The levels of the Statistics change in name only from Human, Chaos, Amber to Human, Meta-human, and Superhuman.

Artifacts & Creatures: These are renamed “Inventions”, and adjust according to theme on agreement between Player and GM. The rules for Constructs remain the same, they are simply different Inventions.

Shadow: Instead of the development of a “Shadow”, the PC has a secret base, laboratory, even entire hidden planet.

Allies: Clearly, an ally in the Courts will do no good in A. E. Van Vogt’s space. Allies change in the following ways: Ally in Earth Government, Ally on Venus or Mars, Ally in a galactic Empire (50 Suns, Isher, Pan-Galactic), Ally in the Weapon Shops, Ally in a secret society of your own, or one not of your own, from among: Dellian Robots, Mixed Men, Null-A, Silkie, Slan, Tendrilless Slan, or the The 35 Toti-potents.

Powers Summary
The average cost of Powers is greater here than in the Amber DRPG proper, encouraging players to drop their statistics below Superhuman level, to allow for a more varied play experience. There is slightly less reason for back-stabbery and betrayal in this variation of the system, so competition between Stats does not suffer for the variety of Human, Meta-human and Superhuman.

Immortality, 20
Mixed Men, 50
Nexalism, 25
Null-A, 25
Null-A Mastery, 40
Ptath, 65
Silkie, 50
Slan, 40
Space Ship, 20
Toti-potent Cells, 30
Toti-potent Mastery, 30
Weapon Shops of Isher, 35

Notes on Psyche: Using AEVV’s Powers, a Psyche vs. Psyche fight, or “Contest of the Minds”, or “Battle of the Minds”, is much more like a Warfare battle of melee weapons, with most of the Powers providing psychic weapons and defences. This represents a change in play style from Amber DRPG.

Immortality      20
From “The House that Stood Still”, aka “The Mating Cry”, 1950, one of AEVV’s middling works.
A human with mutated cells such that he no longer ages, an Immortal is also immune to most minor sicknesses and diseased that would interfere with good health. During immortality, he is in peak physical condition at age 35, but must still eat and sleep normally. An immortal receives injury as their human ancestors and may still suffer a violent death. Only a human may take on immortality. It is not available to a Slan, Ptath, Silkie, or Toti-potent.


Mixed Men      50
From “Mixed Men”, aka “Voyage to the Stars”, 1952, one of AEVV’s major works.
In the far future, primitive transporter technology had a side effect – gradually ridding the passengers of all creative thought, and replacing it with superhuman strength, endurance, and sincere logic. Thus they became known as the Dellian Robots, a slur after the man who developed the trans-matter technology, Professor Dellain. The Dellian Robots were driven from Earth and sought refuge among the stars, founding the “Empire of 50 Suns”, only 50 inhabited worlds spread over several thousand systems, so to hide from the Earth Empire. Many sympathetic humans followed the Dellians, known in the “Empire of 50 Suns” as Non-Dellians. Rediscovered by Humans 1500 years later, the Earth Empire seeks conquest of the Dellian Robots, an idea born not of racism, but that they cannot abide independent government. The only hope the Dellians and Non-Dellians of the Empire of the 50 Suns have is that when they felt Earth, Dellians and Non-Dellians were unable to breed. Due to the uncreative but highly intelligent minds of the Dellian Robots, society in the 50 Suns did not advance technologically over this 1500-year period – with one exception. The invention of the cold-pressure system allows Dellians and Non-Dellians to create a new species…the Mixed Men. Unknown to the Empire of Earth, the Mixed Men are the last hope of the hidden Empire of the 50 Suns. Dellian Robots are startlingly handsome and perfect specimens of their sex, and have passed this onto their children, the Mixed Men – or Mixed Women, as well as their Superhuman strength and minds, but the offspring also have some unexpected powers.

Two Brains: The Mixed Man does not truly have two brains, but has a double protein molecule in each cell of his brain, whereas humans have only one. The Mixed Man can “switch” brains, between his emotional-primal monkey brain and his logical Dellian Robot brain. Because of this, a Mixed Man will never fail a lie detector, because he can always switch brains to an appropriately skirting response. This also provides Mixed Men a mind shield against psychic attacks, forcing a contest of the minds.  

Three Dimensional Hypnotism: Having greater brain power, the Mixed Men can use the power of their two brains to take over someone else’s one brain. The subjects of the mind control are not limited in numbers, but the Mixed Man must be able to concentrate, must be near the subject, must make eye contact, have the subject’s attention, and may only take control of mind at a time. Control must be upon someone who does not know the Mixed Man. The method of control is done telepathically over a short distance, and so requires no vocal component, but the argument ‘planted’ in the subject’s brain must be sensible. It must appeal to the subject’s reason on a sub-logical level, and cannot contain major contradictions, even as it may contain minor logical fallacy. Stronger brains will resist control. Once control is established, it is easy to maintain. Control is lost if the Mixed Man suffers injury, becomes unconscious, or is otherwise greatly distracted. When freed from control, the subjects will come up with excuses that seem logical to them, to account for the lost time.

Secret Society: The Mixed Men hide in great numbers in unnamed cities buried deep underground in uncharted planets among the Empire of 50 Suns, waiting for revolution. They communicate using secret written code, known only to them. It is impossible for a non-Mixed Man to break this code, because it uses the two parts of their brain simultaneously. The existence of the Mixed Men is secret, and further: the Empire of the 50 Suns (including the continued existence of the Dellians who fled civilized space 15, 000 years ago) is a secret to the other Empires of the Galaxy, most notably the Earth Empire, the Empire of Isher, and the conglomerate of Empires comprising the League (including the Greatest Empire).


Nexalism   25
From the novel “Voyage of the Space Beagle” 1950, one of AEVV’s major works.
The science of Nexalism is the understanding of the connection between all known subjects of information. Only the Nexalist is able to combat the over-specification of a particular intellectual subject, because only she can look at the totality of the issue knowing all subjects, and find a complete solution. Nexalism is the ultimate science, and a proponent of its methods is considered an expert in every area of human knowledge, from hard sciences like Physics and Chemistry, to soft sciences like Cultural Anthropology, Hypnotism, and Literature. The only limit to her understanding is that her knowledge only extends as far as the advancements in the field of study from which her information derives. The only new information a Nexilist assumes is derived from the connectivity of other subjects. Due to Nexalism’s variable nature, in the mechanics of the game, Inventions made by Nexalisms are treated under the standard Amber rules for Complex Conjuration, with two exceptions. One, the Nexalist must work in adequate working conditions for one day per Point of the Invention created. Two, the inventing process requires adequate tools and parts, such as one would find in any outer-space science laboratory.  This process can be accelerated to sacrifice quality-control, if the Nexalist wants to risk it blowing up in her face after one use, not working the way it was intended, or not working at all. Unless it blows up, Inventions constructed are permanent, because they do not have to worry about moving Shadow to Shadow, as in the standard Amber setting.


Null-A   25
From the trilogy “World of Null-A” (1958), “Players of Null-A” (1956), and “Null-A Three” (1984), two of which are AEVV’s major works…the other one isn’t so great.
The philosophy mind training of Null-A – or, Non-Aristotelian - has come to dominate large parts of human society, including an extensive enlightened secret colony on terraformed Venus. A proponent of Null-A is exceptionally sane, as her training allows her to control every aspect of her nervous system. She may suffer no shock nor surprise on a physical level, and rarely shows physical signs of fear. She is not emotionless, but has control of her emotions. This provides a mind-shield against Telepathy or Mind Control, subject to the power of her mind. The Null-A proponent has learned how to balance her cortex and thalamus, the emotional and logical parts of the brain, so she is not ruled by one or the other.

Pause: Harmonising the logical cortex and the emotional thalamus, the Null-A proponent can engage in a cortical-thalamic pause to regain control of her nervous system. This action relaxes her body and prepares her mind. It can be used to shrug off psychic control, deconstruct shock or pain to the nervous system, of cease panic.

The Games Machine: The base of Null-A activity is in “Machine City”, South America, Earth. There resides the “Games Machine”, the evaluating computer that tests all applicants in their knowledge of Null-A for one month of the year. This month is the “Lawless Month”, where there are no police or other law enforcement officers in the city. The Games Machine accepts submissions from all over the world. The greatest winners of the games are allowed to join the colony on Venus. The winners below them become the ruling class, running the portion of Earth controlled by Null-A. The Games Machine can always be counted upon as an ally of proponent of Null-A, or anyone determined to advance Null-A goals, however it has certain restrictions, such as an inability to harm human beings unless first attacked. Machines trained in Null-A are sane, motivated and intelligent in a very conversational, human way. Like Dellian Robots, the Games Machine lacks creativity, but is accustom to coming up with logical and intuitive ways to accomplish its objectives.


Null-A Mastery      40
The great mystery of Null-A is realised by very few – those who have been able to develop the extra organ ignored in all humans, the “second brain”, a nerve cluster located just below the brain, which is a actually a highly developed organic Distorter and can be used in the process of Similarising.

Nervous Master: A Null-A Master has such control over her nervous system that she can sense the nervous system of others, the level of complexity apparent in those systems and their condition. She may also sense what amounts to technological nervous systems, such as those found in complex electronic brains. In addition, Null-A Masters sense power conduits, energy flow, and power outlets as an extension of the mechanical nervous system.

Similarising: Null-A teaches that all things are different, but Distorter technology and its organic equivalent of a secondary brain teaches that if two things can be brought into twenty decimal similarity, the larger object will seek to fill the space of the greater – believing them to the same thing, as space and time are relative. Effectively, this is psychically powered object teleportation.

Memorisation of one location or object takes 30 seconds of concentration. This can be done from a short distance away as well as up close, but requires the visual component. Automatic processes can be pre-arranged, so long as their conditions for activation are personal. For instance, “Similarise to this pre-determined location if I feel afraid”. Energy can also be Similarised. If she memorises power outlets that charge can be redirected into an energy blast. Only one thing may be Similarised at a time, but multiple automatic processes may exist. Each location and object can stay memorised for just over 26 hours.

Travelling distances with Similiarisation is not instantaneous. The object or person is converted in location at approximately 9 times the speed of the fastest starship or a mechanical Distorter. Time still passes while the process is underway, but the Similiarised object or person has no sense of the time passing.

Back-Up Bodies: When a Master of Null-A is killed, she awakens in the body of one of her clones. Using the same principal as the second brain, and adhering to the General Semantics of Null-A, no matter how far away the clone is she awakens with all the memories of her previous incarnation. These clone bodies are placed in locations by some unknown galactic chess-master. It is seemingly impossible to know their motives in the galactic ballet of cosmic forces. If ever the Null-A Master dies without there being another body to inhabit, they will die utterly.


Ptath      65
From “The Book of Ptath”, 1947, one of AEVV’s major works.
He whose strength is unlimited, who tires not, and knows no fear. Ptath is the thrice greatest of the Gonwonlane, a god at the end of human time beyond the year 200 million A.D., who has chosen to distribute his being into time. This is the Ptath’s plan to better understand humanity - to invest his god-mind and share the body of a human in different incarnations, from the beginning of humanity until its end, when he reincarnates as himself again. Player characters with the Power of Ptath are a reincarnation of his god-form as it makes its psychic journey through history. During his ‘travels’, any of the Ptath’s bodies are mortal and aging. As the character develops, they rediscover the greatness of the Ptath on his way to the next incarnation.

Project Essence: The primary power of the Ptath is inhabiting the bodies of others. The Ptath may project his essence to control a body of the same gender. The host body must also be someone the character has not met, but may be human or animal, living or dead. If the character has met the intended host, then they engage in a contest of the mind. Extending the soul out of the Ptath’s body leaves it vulnerable and without attack. It enters a sleep-like trance until the essence of the Ptath returns.  When searching for a body to inhabit, the Ptath essence can sense water, but is otherwise blind. The essence passes through physical objects without knowing them, and can sense only relevant bodies. There is no way to detect the presence of the Ptath in the body it inhabits. The Ptath may read the surface mind and immediate memory of the host body. The body is under the complete control of the Ptath god-mind until the Ptath leaves, and when it does the host body retains no memory of the experience.  

Poles: The Ptath god-mind anchors its powers in two people of the opposite sex. These characters are known as “Poles”. The Poles orient the godpower for its journey through humanity. The player character does not get to pick their Poles, they will be assigned by the GM, however the player is given several clues to their identity. They must be of the opposite sex as the Ptath’s host body, and they must hate each other and/or be opposed in some way. The Poles draw on the Ptath’s powers, granting them both immortality, each the ability to Project Essence, and when working together the ability to interrupt the Ptath’s progress by summoning him through time and space. The Poles are implanted with 7 hypnotic suggestions to guide the Ptath through trials (see Spells) regardless of the Poles’ own plans or desires. They may not be aware that they are helping the Ptath, but in every incarnation they will aid him to regain his godpower.

Spells: Upon fulfilling each of the seven trials presented by one or both of his poles, the Ptath character gains in godpower. The trials are also interpreted as spells to break. Upon breaking all 7 spells, the Ptath regains all his godpower and moves on to the next incarnation in time. Though the spells are the same in each incarnation, the Ptath has no memory of them each time, which is part of why he depends on the Poles and their hypnotic conditioning.

Godpower: These are the many skills of the final incarnation of the Ptath, which he must gain each time in each human form. The Ptath already has power to superhuman levels in his Strength, Endurance, Psyche and Warfare because of the prayers of his devoted, who use a metal Prayer Stick. Only the prayers of the opposite sex count towards the godpower. These powers that grow as the Ptath undergoes his trials. As well, he may gain additional powers with each trial endured. For instance:

·   Teleportation through space, guided by water. Can transport his physical body great distances, but only over water. In the next instantiation of this godpower, the Ptath may do the same but with a passenger.
·   Transport through the past by moving through parallel points in time, slowly, but with the help of a Pole can move quickly up to a maximum speed of 200, 000 000 years.


Silkie      50
From “The Silkie”, 1969, one of AEVV’s minor but fun works.
Shape-shifting space-cops recognised by all major interstellar authorities, Silikies are genetically engineered superhumans prepared for any environment. The Silkie have no standardised law code – their rule is law, although they still must be accountable to the Silkie Authority. Though Silkies have only existed for 100 years, no Silkie has ever died a natural death. Their estimated lifespan is 1000 years.

Transformation: The cells of his body quickly expand and manipulate to change the state of the Silkie. Transformation between states takes approximately five seconds, and is a Silkie's time of greatest weakness. A Silkie is capable of three states, A-Skilkie: Human, B-Silkie: Aquatic, and C-Silkie Space-faring. The human from is the smallest at close to six feet, with the Aquatic from next in size at 7 feet, and Spacefaring form after at 10 feet in height.

B-Silkie: Even the most rudimentary Silkies (known as V's, or “Variants”) have a B-form, or an 'Aquatic Form'. Variants prefer this form as the most natural state. Around seven feet tall, this form is stronger and more agile than the Human form, or A-Silkie. The B-Silkie form is conditioned for water, complete with gills, webbed hands and feet, and the eyes required for low-light vision. The body is capable of withstanding most earthly pressures while maintaining a great agility. In appearance is alien-like and it resembles sleek scaling, like the “Guyver”.

C-Silkie: Often referred to as a “Full-Grown Silkie”, “Full-Silkie” or simply the “Silkie” form, this is the space-faring form, a ten-foot tall barely mobile bony and steel-hard chitinous casing. The skin can withstand and pressures and vacuum of space, and allow a Silkie to travel the stars. It has no limbs, but a shape of them, and has no orifices or sensory devices other than the Silkie’s normal energy manipulation powers. The C-Silkie state resembles a pink crustacean-like sarcophagus.

Line of Force: Silkies telepathically emit an invisible “Force Line” – a connection of energy to the subject of their Logic of Levels or Energy Manipulation. Establishing this Line of Force is limited by perception and weakened by distance. This line may be used as a carrier wave for any kind of energy, or to draw any kind of energy out from the target of the line. A Line of Force may only have one target, takes a moment to initiate, and is the requirement for any subjective Energy Manipulation, and the use of Levels of Logic.

Energy Manipulation: A Silkie in any form is capable of channelling energy, including absorbing, re-directing, or shooting. This is least potent in human form, and most potent in full Class-C. Energy Manipulation is necessary for space travel, where a Silkie is constantly bombarded by strange radiations, interstellar dusts and small space objects. Tied in with this is a Silkie's extra-ordinary level of sensory perception, with 184 common sensory organs rather than a human average of 5, including the ability to measure heat and radioactivity by sight. A Silkie may intercept and interpret television, radio and inter-stellar space message broadcast signals by the use of these extra senses. Other uses of Energy Manipulation include: To be undetected by robotic sensors, limited control over other energies such as Magnetic and Gravity, a raw energy blast, to channel chain lightening, a personal defensive or offensive (like an electric eel) body shield, and barriers to certain radiations or forces of energy.

Logic of Levels: In their role as space-faring police, a Silike is granted a weapon of the mind. If used correctly, the enemies of the Silkie find themselves caught in self-amplifying feedback from their own instincts and desires. To perform this, a Silkie must establish a Line of Force to their target then choose some inner logic of the subject to amplify. The Silkie chooses a concept assumed by the subject as an instinct, an unconscious must, and manipulates that deeper logic to use against them, by the suggestion of pictures and sounds, trapping them in a self-destroying delusion. The Silkie initiates a feedback loop for one particular sense of logic – for instance, the requirement for sleep, or food. Logic of Levels is a form of Energy Manipulation, and requires proximity and attention. The closer the object of the Logic of Levels, the more potent it is. A Silkie must win a contest of the minds in order to achieve a feedback loop. The more complex the organism, the more difficult this process is to realise.

Silkie Authority & The Special People:  Humans live in relative harmony with Silkies, but have put a few measures in place for keeping tabs on their super-powered betters. The Silkie Authority is comprised mostly of Special People – humans with no distinguishing trait other than the ability of Silkie-only planet-spanning telepathy. To one of the Special People, a Silkie's mind is an open book. All Silkies have one official contact among the Special People associated with the Silkie Authority. This human may hand out missions, but usually just fields the Silkie's reports and makes recommendations to the Silkie Authority on the Silkie’s behalf. The Telestar technology of the Silkie Authority is especially attuned to this Line of Force, allowing telepathic communication between a Silkie and their Silkie Authority Special People Agent whenever a Telestar satellite is in range.

Silkie Procreation: A Silkie enters a mating cycle every nine and one half years. During the mating period, the Silkie is trapped in B-Silkie state for two months, then in human state for an additional four, and is unable to use their powers of energy manipulation. Traditionally, mating is when any grievances brought on the Silkie by their policing actions are brought down upon them by the Silkie Authority, and so this time is treated as a kind of performance review. The penalty for abuse of power is death.

A Silkie is only permitted to mate with one of the Special People. Mating among Silkies is forbidden. A Silkie does not keep his children. They are rendered to the Silkie Authority to be raised. Most Silkie children are Variants, or “V's” and not capable of full Silike powers. Variants spend most of their time in B-Silkie form, unable to maintain A or C for more than a few hours, if they are even capable. To be able to attain the A-Silkie (Human) form is special among Variants, known as “Breathers”. Energy Manipulation is also rare among Variants. Variants have full family units and are not restricted to the Silkie mating cycle. Vs are hostile towards Silkies mostly due to jealousy, and the fact that Vs are considered unfit for service. The rare Silkie child is a full-Silkie, and trained by the Silkie authority since the authentication of their state to be the law of the galaxy. Even rarer is the full-Silkie offspring (more common in forbidden matings between two full-Silkie) that has mutated to express greater powers of Energy Manipulation, or perhaps more stranger or more fantastic powers. These mutant Silkie are destroyed immediately by the Silkie Authority. Any Variant Silkie children showing signs of mutated abilities are similarly destroyed, but Variants must seek the ruling of a full Silkie and have them carry out the sentence.

Sometimes a space-cop’s job isn’t easy.


Slan      40
From the novel “Slan”, 1946, possibly AEVV’s greatest work.
Human hysteria has it that the Slans were created by Dr. Samuel Lann, who put his children through a mutating machine to make the first Slans, and that successive Slans are created by stealing human babies and repeating the process. This is human propaganda! In fact, a Slan is a natural mutation into a superhuman stage first recognised by Dr. Lann, but that is not what the humans think. Under the leadership of human President of Earth Kier Grey, a Slan is to be shot upon recognition of the golden tendrils on the back of her head. Government employed Slan Hunters under the direction of chief Slan Hunter John Petty search the world for tendril scalps. Players have the option of being a true Slan, or one of the Tendrilless variety, incapable of Telepathy but unknown to humans.

Anatomy: A Slan has a two hearts. Between them they are the same size as a human heart, but together they are stronger to the extent that a Slan cannot suffer heart failure, and the greater blood flow process combined with a greater understanding of her nervous system accounts for her superhuman statistics. The other minor differences between Slan and human internal anatomy are not distinguishable by standard medical scans, except one. The most prominent distinguishing marker for a Slan is the golden tendrils on the back of her head, granting her telepathy and superhuman intelligence. The tendrils are hair-thin at birth, and thicken into a dreadlock width as the Slan ages during her average lifespan of 150 years. Though she cannot regrown appendages, Slans have increased healing capacity, recovering from most moderate wounds in half an hour.

Eidetc Memory: A Slan possesses a perfect photographic memory. She is capable of reading whole books at speeds only limited by the strength of the pages while flipping them, or retaining in perfect detail several sheets of information only glanced at, and recognising people and faces with uncanny skill.

Mind Shield: A Slan is well trained at guarding their thoughts and she can resist any intrusion or control into her mind at an advantage.

Telepathy: A Slan is capable of broadcasting her thoughts to others and receiving telepathic messages from even non-Slans, carrying on conversation in real-time. Further, she can cast open her tendrils to full thought awareness of every mind in range. Resistance to a Slan’s telepathy is a contest of the minds. In pairs or groups, Slan can also use their Telepathy to influence a weaker mind by planting suggestions or warping perceptions. These telepathic powers are limited by a range of 30 to 60 feet, relative to the power of the Slan’s mind.

Tendrilless Slan: In an attempt to avoid persecution, many hundreds of years ago Slans developed a tendrilless off-shoot of their race, to ensure survival with the removal of their most distinguishing feature. Humans have no knowledge of the existence of the Tendrilless Slans. Because they do not have tendrils, the Tendrilless are incapable of Telepathy, but otherwise have all the advantages of a Slan. The Tendrilless have their own political identity, and a scientifically advanced society on Mars, preparing for the invasion and destruction of all humans upon the Earth. Unfortunately, the Tendrilless are also at war with their racial parents, the true Slans. The Tendrilless remain ignorant that the suppression of tendrils will pass in a few generations – it is starting to happen already, but all they suspect is some Slan conspiracy. Eventually, the Tendrilless will cease to exist, but can they destroy humanity before this happens?


Space Ship      20
From “Voyage of the Space Beagle” (1950), “The Mixed Men” (1952), and countless others.
Every Empire in space has their own vast space-navy. The survival rate of a space ship is not high – a human ship in exploration of the galaxy has only a 50% chance of returning home again. One of the greatest dangers in space is weather – the thousands of miles wide interstellar storms that sweep through space, both destroying and redistributing the seeds of life to populate barren planets. To command a vessel among the dangers of space is no easy task. A Player may choose their position on the ship, but the ship’s allegiance in the greater politics of space – be it part of the Fleet of Imperial Earth, in the Empire of the 50 Suns, or another group entirely – must be worked out with the GM to fit the story.


Toti-potent Cells      30
From “Changeling”, 1967, one of AEVV’s minor works.
A human left to die of their injuries, slowly and without medical attention, has the possibility of arousing inside them Toti-potent cells, and awakening from their injury with all limbs regrown, as a healed and young superhuman.

Healing: Whenever an injury or wound would be fatal or disfiguring, instead or repairing cells the Toti-potent body creates entirely new cells, replacing the old body to create a new 35 year old without grey hair, scars, or muscle problems. Recovery from complete death from physical injury takes one week, and an amputated limb takes two weeks to regrow. The disadvantage is that the completely healed Toti-potent awakes with no memory, and no knowledge of the truth of her existence.

Even without suffering fatal injury, a Toti-potent undergoes rejuvenation every 35 years.  There are a limited number of rejuvenations, combined of natural cycles and violent deaths, and there is no way of knowing how many. At some point, the Toti-potent, instead of undergoing revival, just dies. Toti-potency is not hereditary.

Toti-potent Blood: With an injection of the same blood type of Toti-potent cells, the recipient gains the rejuvenation power of the cells, returning to age 35 if beyond, and suffers no loss of memory. All Toti-potents have AB negative blood.

Great Invention: For every life cycle, when under great emotional pressure such as the fear of death, a Toti-potent is capable of making one great invention. Using common found objects, she can construct nearly any device. For instance, a Toti-potent in prison awaiting trial could disassemble a radio to construct a ray beam that will shine like a flashlight destroying all inorganic matter in front of it and tunnel her way out of prison. The invention still costs Points in game-terms, but the materials and assembly time required is negligible. If a Toti-potent is killed before they can make the invention of that cycle, it is gone forever. When entering the next cycle, she has no memory of how she constructed this amazing thing.


Toti-potent Mastery   30
There is an organisation of only 35 other Toti-potent mutants, dedicated to reminding each other of their history whenever one of them suffers the cycle of renewal every 35 years. They have great storehouses of past inventions, the inner workings of which are all forgotten.  Training with the organisation for a time grants advanced techniques, only available if the Toti-potent has already been through at least a few cycles. The Toti-potents also develop a simple mind shield in this training.

Memory Download: A Toti-potent master can download the knowledge and entire memory of weaker minds and review that information in only a few seconds, but only for human subjects of the same sex. Those downloaded cannot be personally known to the Toti-potent.

Mind Suggestions: A Toti-potent master can make suggestions to appeal to personal logic, and the subject must obey. There must be a verbal component involved in the mind suggestion, and opposition is resolved with a battle of minds. Mind shields defeat the Toti-potent’s mind suggestions almost out of hand.


Weapon Shops of Isher      35
From the novels “The Weapon Makers” (1947) and “Weapon Shops of Isher” (1951), two of AEVV’s major works, and some of the most critically acclaimed.
The store appears out of nowhere, and the glowing sign upon it reads: “Fine Weapons”, then, “The Right to Buy Weapons is the Right to be Free.” In the display window is an array of guns, rifles, small arms and a little sign that reads: “The finest energy weapons in the known universe.” For generations the gunmaker’s guild has existed in this age of devastating energies as the common man’s only protection against enslavement. The building itself is indestructible to harm against any known weapon, energy or otherwise, and its interior looks like some kind of space age hardware store. The shop’s rectangular door is closed to all military, police and government officials, otherwise anyone may enter, and buy a gun.

Guns: The guns of the weapon shop are the most powerful in the galaxy. No guns may be fired in aggression or murder. Weapon Shop guns can only be used in self defence, which in itself is somewhat subjective. They are keyed to the individual, so no one may use the gun of another. Every gun generates a personal energy screen that can withstand up to the force of an atomic cannon. The screen offers no resistance against clubs, spears, bullets, or other matter. The gun must be in hand for its energy screen to be in effect. However, the gun draws on mind control and, upon the slightest alarm, leaps to its owner’s hand at greater speeds than can be seen. How much do they cost, do you ask? Well, using the Shop’s Information Centre, they always know exactly how much money you have, and will always charge exactly what you can afford for the right to be free. One gun per visit. Analysis of need by the Shops is done on a case-per-case, need-per-need basis. No ammunition needed. Satisfaction guaranteed.

Politics and Courts of the Weapon Shops: Secretly founded and run by the immortal man Robert Hedrock, the Weapon Shops have set themselves up as a balancing principal in civilisation, not in opposition to any government. The credo the Shops is that “People always have the kind of government they want.” The Shops will endorse no steps that contravene the law. However, they offer a secondary legal procedure available to all customers and members of the Weapon Shops. The Shops keep a comprehensive “Information Centre”, a database of all human’s histories. It may take a while in line, but a case worker will hear your injustice and rule on behalf of the Weapon Shops. The Shop’s resources, such as the guns, and matter transportation technology far in advance of the rest of the Isher and galactic civilisation, are available to exact their justice.

There we have it. Let me know if you decide to use it for a strange, spacey game of Amber.

Fascinating! I'm not actually familiar with the author you chose, but its a very interesting set of twists.  Maybe you've got the makings of a Clone game there!

RPGpundit

My initial response was going to be to start warming up the tar and ripping open the feather pillows. Then I read beyond the title and actually read the post. Cool.

1. I have not read the Null-A series, although a friend in the 1980's highly reccommended it to me.

2. You have put some great thought into this, and I like the way you've written it all up.

Sadly, since I haven't read the series I can't attest to the accuracy of your model, but I like the way it reads.

I've also run some ADRP games with settings not Zelazny (Dresden Files, Star Wars, Middle-earth, Barsoom, generic scifi, and others) and I agree that the system works great for those as well. The secret (to me) is that you have to select a setting which is more cinematic than gritty. ADRP isn't designed to count bullets or sword thrusts or hit points. It's designed to run exciting storylines which are larger than life. Big heroes doing big things. Then it works just fine.

As a fan of the original works and the ADRPG, my compliments on a good summary and nice translation.

World of Tiers by Phillip Jose Farmer would be a good candidate for something like this as well.

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;610438World of Tiers by Phillip Jose Farmer would be a good candidate for something like this as well.

I have that on my shelf, yet-to-read. I've read "To Your Scattered Bodies Go" of his and liked it very much.

In what way does the setting of "World of Tiers" lend itself to a Zelazny-like gaming structure?

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;610477In what way does the setting of "World of Tiers" lend itself to a Zelazny-like gaming structure?
//Panjumanju

In so far as Zelazny cited it as a direct influence on the Amber series. God like beings that create their own worlds and scheme against one another. The protagonist starts off unaware of his true nature. That sort of thing.

I've only read part of the first book in the series, but it was rather good. Lost the copy that I had (e-book) and haven't had a chance to pick up a hard copy yet.

World of Tiers is a great fit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Tiers

Also by Farmer Riverworld is a good fit.

Aside from that -

Historical games set in Ancient Rome, Rennaiseance Italy etc where schemes and plots are the nature of the game - you don't need superpowers to run Amber you need intrigue.

Superheros - if you can add the intrigue factor so more Planetary than JLA

Obviously Zelazny's own Jack of Shadows and Lords of Light and I think These were touched for Lords of Gossamer and Shadow.

Vertigo comics stuff specifically Lucifer with various lords of heaven and Hell vieing for power and control, but also an Invisibles game with teams of powered inviduals taking on a super bizarre sub plot.

And as it came up a couple of weeks back The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, multuple dimensions, powerful exceptional agents dowble twists and the like.

Plenty of stuff out there.

I think what you need setting-wise to support the mechanics is:

1. A game where the PCs are generally much more powerful than the typical person in the world.
2. Something where there are strange and wondrous powers, including things capable of allowing you quick transport all over the place.
3. Multiple realities or levels of reality.
4. A setting where its not implicit that the PCs all work together, and possibly where it is implicit that the PCs can be in competition with each other.

I think these four are basically in order of importance, too!

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;610855I think what you need setting-wise to support the mechanics is:

1. A game where the PCs are generally much more powerful than the typical person in the world.
2. Something where there are strange and wondrous powers, including things capable of allowing you quick transport all over the place.
3. Multiple realities or levels of reality.
4. A setting where its not implicit that the PCs all work together, and possibly where it is implicit that the PCs can be in competition with each other.

I think these four are basically in order of importance, too!

RPGPundit

That is a good summary of the Amber DRPG but no I don't thnk you need 1-3 at all.
I have played a Star wars using Amber diceless with Warfare, force, Technical and Pilot as the attibutes where the PCs were all bounty hunters searching for a rogue rebel agent.

I have played a game in Rennaisance italy where the attirubutes were, Warfare, Guile, Political Influcence and Religion were the PCs were members of the Medici's (guile didn't work very well by the way).

And others

None of these were campaigns just couple of sessions but they had Ambers feel and in none were the PCs superhuman, had magical powers or access to different realiites. They all had a far more similar feel than playing games with your 1-3 setting requirements using different systems.

Quote from: jibbajibba;610860I have played a game in Rennaisance italy where the attirubutes were, Warfare, Guile, Political Influcence and Religion were the PCs were members of the Medici's (guile didn't work very well by the way).

That sounds amazing. Perhaps something like "Espionage" may have worked better? Even so, it's a really great premise for a roleplaying game.

//Panjumanju

You might be right about number 4 being more important, jibbajibba.

RPGPundit

While you don't "need" superpowers to make ADRP run, I think that you need to have exceptional characters and not just "average joe" types.

The problem is the lack of randomness.

If characters are amped up compared to the general population it's easy for a GM to figure out the answer to the "who would win" scenario. If they are equal, this question is a lot harder. Particularly when we move away from swords and into the realm of firearms, which tend to be more random than swords.

Star Wars works fine because Jedi tend to be a lot more cinematic and heroic, but if all of the characters are Han Solo types the game is a lot more challenging to judge fairly. Six characters and six stormtroopers in a blaster fight, who would win? It's complex because any given character and/or stormtrooper could theoretically shoot at anyone, whereas if it was a battle with swords each combatant takes on a single foe and they fight directly.

I think that the randomness of firearms messes up the elegance of ADRP. Zelazny chose a setting where gunpowder doesn't work so he avoids much of this issue.

Quote from: finarvyn;611011The problem is the lack of randomness. [...]Particularly when we move away from swords and into the realm of firearms, which tend to be more random than swords.

I've never thought of it in those terms, but that makes a lot of sense to me.

//Panjumanju

Surely, randomness can be emulated by "Stuff"/Luck, the great and ultimate tiebreaker of the game.

RPGPundit

Quote from: finarvyn;611011While you don't "need" superpowers to make ADRP run, I think that you need to have exceptional characters and not just "average joe" types.

The problem is the lack of randomness.

If characters are amped up compared to the general population it's easy for a GM to figure out the answer to the "who would win" scenario. If they are equal, this question is a lot harder. Particularly when we move away from swords and into the realm of firearms, which tend to be more random than swords.

Star Wars works fine because Jedi tend to be a lot more cinematic and heroic, but if all of the characters are Han Solo types the game is a lot more challenging to judge fairly. Six characters and six stormtroopers in a blaster fight, who would win? It's complex because any given character and/or stormtrooper could theoretically shoot at anyone, whereas if it was a battle with swords each combatant takes on a single foe and they fight directly.

I think that the randomness of firearms messes up the elegance of ADRP. Zelazny chose a setting where gunpowder doesn't work so he avoids much of this issue.

Having done it where we were all bounty hunters worked fine. 2 guys had high force and bought jedi powers i had none but my bounty hunter was really a clone robot hybrid and had rank 1in pilot and technical. The guy with the highest warfare basically played bobba fett crossed with a samurai and we let him use a light sabre cos he had highest rank warfare.
It all worked fine to be honest. One of the force guys went dark side in the final encounter so the other one and he got in a lightsabre duel mixing it up with jedi powers and force stuff which was great to watch.  I had done a deal with the bobba fett samurai guy and triggered the explosive charges i had planted in both their comms equipment to take them both out and we left in my ship with the bounty. I had of course also fitted about 4 explosives to bobba in antisipation of the inevitable double cross and had rigged my ship to explode should my brain functions stop. But the double cross never came and we sailed off into the sunset....
We handled firefights just like you would in a regular amber game. Course all my mini robots and tech tricks held the day though the force guys would tell you it was their jedi powers and the samurai would tell you it was him jetpacking backwards down the corridor with a blaster in one hand and a light sabre in the other.... Show off.

For the record, I've never had any problem with firearms in my game. I don't see why someone would think this is a problem with the mechanics.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613514For the record, I've never had any problem with firearms in my game. I don't see why someone would think this is a problem with the mechanics.

RPGPundit

I don't think they were pointing it out as a problem, just as something interesting. Guns affects player conception of "the odds", given their cultural significance, making them seem more random. That's neat. At least, that's what I got from it.

//Panjumanju

I don't see where the randomness factors in. Its still warfare vs. warfare.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;614448I don't see where the randomness factors in. Its still warfare vs. warfare.

RPGpundit

Yup. I think a bunch of Navy seals would hate you to think that their combat skills were random luck.

I can see that a guy with a pool of badstuff might get hit with the stray shot or a guy with a lot of goodstuff might make great use of cover e5tc. butthis is no different to a guy with a pool of badstuff slipping on a wet floor in  bar room brawl or getting their electrowhip caught on the ceiling fan.

Quote from: jibbajibba;614470......getting their electrowhip caught on the ceiling fan.

That old chestnut. If I had a nickle....

Quote from: RPGPundit;614448I don't see where the randomness factors in. Its still warfare vs. warfare.

RPGpundit

You are right, mechanically. But I think finarvyn was talking about player and GM perceptions affecting in-character decision making.

Because clearly it does not matter if Benedict has a handgun or a toothpick.

//Panjumanju

Let me elaborate a little on the "randomness" aspect of gunplay...

First, consider a scenario in an ancient-era game where three guys take on three badduns. All six characters are armed with swords. Basically, they line up and each character goes toe-to-toe with a single adversary in a warfare v. warfare conflict. If one battle ends quickly, that character might move on to help his peer gang up on a foe, but in general each character is battling against a single opponent. Very orderly.

Now consider the same scenerio in a wild west-era game where three guys take on three badduns. All six characters are armed with colt .45 sixshooters. Instead of lining up one-on-one, the six are hiding behind objects, shooting through windows, or whatever. Any time any character sees any of the three opponents, he might take a shot at the guy. This is much less orderly.

With swords you get a continual cut-parry-thrust conflict where the best one slowly wins. With guns you get random shots at foes who happen to show themselves. I see this as a very different situation to run as a game master, and a weakness in the ADRP rules mechanic.

Just my two cents. Perhaps no one else has this problem.

Quote from: finarvyn;614754Let me elaborate a little on the "randomness" aspect of gunplay...

First, consider a scenario in an ancient-era game where three guys take on three badduns. All six characters are armed with swords. Basically, they line up and each character goes toe-to-toe with a single adversary in a warfare v. warfare conflict. If one battle ends quickly, that character might move on to help his peer gang up on a foe, but in general each character is battling against a single opponent. Very orderly.

Now consider the same scenerio in a wild west-era game where three guys take on three badduns. All six characters are armed with colt .45 sixshooters. Instead of lining up one-on-one, the six are hiding behind objects, shooting through windows, or whatever. Any time any character sees any of the three opponents, he might take a shot at the guy. This is much less orderly.

With swords you get a continual cut-parry-thrust conflict where the best one slowly wins. With guns you get random shots at foes who happen to show themselves. I see this as a very different situation to run as a game master, and a weakness in the ADRP rules mechanic.

Just my two cents. Perhaps no one else has this problem.

I think Amber does suffer an issue with gunfire but not in the scenario you define.
I can suspend belief enough to beleive that clint Eastward can gun down 4 guys in a shootout just as easily as I can believe that Bruce Lee can do it to 4 guys in a dojo, or that Michael York can do it to 4 of the cardinals guards with a rapier.
The problem I have is with assasination. It's very hard to swallow the ADRPG comments of things like eliminating the 1st rank warfare guy with a sniper's rifle for example. Not any harder that how they can sense invisible oponents of course but a lot more mundane.
Guns are an equaliser in real combat. Doesn't mean they don't take skill to use but probably does mean that the ranks between levels of skill are far closer.

I just don't see that scenario as difficult. It MIGHT be interepreted as one where terrain and other environmental factors, as well as luck, can have a slightly bigger influence than in melee combat, but that's the only real difference.

In my two+ decades of running Amber, I've done plenty of firefights.

RPGPundit

I can support the notion that guns conceptually influence player decision, just as any ranged weapon might, but I cannot go as far as to say it breaks anything in the game.

One of the greatest things about the game, in my mind, is that all weapons are on something of an equal playing field. They may shift contextually in their efficiency, but it's all Warfare.

If you think guns break it, how on earth would you deal with laser guns, missiles and spells that summon gouts of magma from the shadow of Hot?

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;616457If you think guns break it, how on earth would you deal with laser guns, missiles and spells that summon gouts of magma from the shadow of Hot?

//Panjumanju

Yup. I've seen all of that in my campaigns, and no problem at all with them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;616218In my two+ decades of running Amber, I've done plenty of firefights.

I've been running ADRP since 1991 or 1992 and have run plenty of firefights as well. I just feel more uncomfortable with the outcome. Just feels more arbitrary than swordplay, at least I think it does.

Quote from: finarvyn;617323I've been running ADRP since 1991 or 1992 and have run plenty of firefights as well. I just feel more uncomfortable with the outcome. Just feels more arbitrary than swordplay, at least I think it does.

Hmm, ok. Well, not meaning to offend, but have you considered this might just be you? I mean, some particular aspect of how you handle play as an Amber GM?

RPGPundit

Quote from: finarvyn;614754I see this as a very different situation to run as a game master, and a weakness in the ADRP rules mechanic.

Just my two cents. Perhaps no one else has this problem.

Quote from: RPGPundit;617463Hmm, ok. Well, not meaning to offend, but have you considered this might just be you? I mean, some particular aspect of how you handle play as an Amber GM?

Why yes I have considered this, as the snip from my earlier post testifies. That's part of why I like to participate in these discussions, as I look for ways to improve on what I do in ADRP. I'd be pretty arrogant to assume that I'm the perfect GM for all situations. ;)

There are certain aspects of the game that never seem to click right in my brain. I'm also uncomfortable with switching conflicts from Strength to Warfare, or from Warfare to Strength. Particularly in player-player conflict (as opposed to player-NPC). Not to say that I can't do it, but I wish I had a better guideline so as to be more "fair" every time.

Quote from: finarvyn;617832There are certain aspects of the game that never seem to click right in my brain. ... Particularly in player-player conflict (as opposed to player-NPC). Not to say that I can't do it, but I wish I had a better guideline so as to be more "fair" every time.

Amber is not an easy game to run. It expects a high performance level from you every time, and I find it taxing sometimes.

I agree it can be quite the thing deciding where and when the 'axe should fall' - for me it's especially true concerning character death. And there's no real time to muddle it over. RPGs with dice at least offer a moment to think.

But, I find the potential for ambiguity in the Amber rules ultimately brings out more great things than trouble it causes.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;618040Amber is not an easy game to run. It expects a high performance level from you every time, and I find it taxing sometimes.

I agree it can be quite the thing deciding where and when the 'axe should fall' - for me it's especially true concerning character death. And there's no real time to muddle it over. RPGs with dice at least offer a moment to think.

Very much so. Most games give a GM time to regroup while characters are mindlessly killing things, but with ADRP every encounter is significant and gives no time for the GM to think.

Quote from: Panjumanju;618040I find the potential for ambiguity in the Amber rules ultimately brings out more great things than trouble it causes.

Agreed, which is why ADRP remains among my top 2-3 RPGs of all time. (I confess that I rank the original 1974 D&D as my top RPG of all time, but much of this is nostalgia.)

This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

Quote from: noisms;618365This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

Ideal for that game and I doubt very much if it wasn't some of Zelazny's inspiration.

It is quite close to the actual game though :)

Quote from: noisms;618365This may have already come up but I always thought Amber DRPG would be good for a Gormenghast type game: a bunch of people living in a huge decaying castle, plotting against one another while maintaining the veneer of civility.

Tell me more about this. I've never read the books but they sound interesting!

Quote from: jibbajibba;618615Ideal for that game and I doubt very much if it wasn't some of Zelazny's inspiration.

It is quite close to the actual game though :)

I think it was, if anything, only mainly the big inspiration for the castle itself.

RPGPundit

Quote from: finarvyn;618721Tell me more about this. I've never read the books but they sound interesting!

In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone. the Hero Titus of thr House of Groan is the heir to a fuck off huge castle and surrounding land but the castle dominates. Its ridiculously big (not quite Feersum Enjin BIG but you know big) and mostly empty and full of weird machivellian plotters like Steerpike who is nominally the villain of the peice.

From a narative perspective its a fantasy novel without magic, mythical beasts or any trappings of fantasy. Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Its a really important book in terms of the development of fantasy though inspiring not just Zelazny and Bankes but just about everyone from Martin (Harrenhall is very Ghormengian) to Sucker Punch (the ballet school/assylum has that same feel to it).

They tried tv shows and some other adaptions but meh they haven't nailed it yet.

Quote from: jibbajibba;619427In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone. the Hero Titus of thr House of Groan is the heir to a fuck off huge castle and surrounding land but the castle dominates. Its ridiculously big (not quite Feersum Enjin BIG but you know big) and mostly empty and full of weird machivellian plotters like Steerpike who is nominally the villain of the peice.

From a narative perspective its a fantasy novel without magic, mythical beasts or any trappings of fantasy. Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Its a really important book in terms of the development of fantasy though inspiring not just Zelazny and Bankes but just about everyone from Martin (Harrenhall is very Ghormengian) to Sucker Punch (the ballet school/assylum has that same feel to it).

They tried tv shows and some other adaptions but meh they haven't nailed it yet.

It's almost unfilmable, I would say.

It's hard to explain the appeal as it is so much a mood and atmosphere thing. Just picture a number of eccentrics inhabiting a huge castle, each with their own agenda - either to gain revenge on one another for some old slight, or to take over the castle itself.

Quote from: jibbajibba;619427In the 1950s Mervyn Peake wrote 3 books, Titus Groan, Ghromenghast and Titus Alone.

As you mention the book titles this sounds familiar, like I've seen the books on the shelves of the bookstore years ago.

Quote from: jibbajibba;619427Its not the easiest read as its quite dry and characters are focused largely on their grotesque elements so it seems otherworldly.

Somehow the fact that they are hard to read sounds familiar as well. :( Too bad, because I'd love to find more Amber-like fiction. Maybe I'll see if they have a copy of the first book at a used bookstore and give it a shot.

There was a TV series a while ago, I think the BBC? It wasn't all that good though.

In any case, there was a lot more influence in Amber, I think, from other sources; as Wujcik demonstrated in an Amberzine one of the main influences was a 40s pulp-fantasy story.  There was a lot of classic myth/golden bough stuff in there, playing with archetypes, the writing style borrows a lot from Hemmingway.

RPGPundit

Quote from: finarvyn;619982As you mention the book titles this sounds familiar, like I've seen the books on the shelves of the bookstore years ago.

Somehow the fact that they are hard to read sounds familiar as well. :( Too bad, because I'd love to find more Amber-like fiction. Maybe I'll see if they have a copy of the first book at a used bookstore and give it a shot.

Well Try Gaiman.
American Gods has a bit of an Amber vibe as does Anansi Boys.

Gaiman was a good friend of Zelazny and has noted that he woudl have loved to have written more Amber stories if Roger hadn't personally asked him not to. In fact I think Gaiman pitched an Amber Anthology to Roger once with a bunch of the usual fantasy suspects (Martin, Cook, Etc etc) but Roger said no.

I find that a real shame and a little odd as he allowed 7 No Trump (good) and The Black Road War (not so good) adventure books when he was alive as well as the really quite awful Visual guide to Castle Amber. And by asking his mates not to write about Amber we end up with the Benecourt books and look how that turned out.

I have a Dying Earth anthology and its got some real gems in it becuase all of those guys participated and an Amber Book on the same vein I think would have been golden.

But its moot.

I find that a bit odd as well. He obviously had strong feelings about his literary legacy, in that he didn't want others playing in his personal play ground. Which is fine, authors prerogative and all that. But this being the case why didn't he do anything about updating his will? Telling his friends (Gaiman, Martin, etc) that he didn't want others writing about Amber is all well and good, but the only thing it really accomplished is making sure that the quality writers who knew him best had to stand by and watch Betancourt fuck it all up. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that says tell your best mates how you want your legacy to be handled, but don't bother keeping your will up to date.

If he really felt that strongly about it he could have done more that tell Neil and George "Bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine". He should have left someone in charge that knew the score. As to opposed to someone with an axe to grind.

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;620873I find that a bit odd as well. He obviously had strong feelings about his literary legacy, in that he didn't want others playing in his personal play ground. Which is fine, authors prerogative and all that. But this being the case why didn't he do anything about updating his will? Telling his friends (Gaiman, Martin, etc) that he didn't want others writing about Amber is all well and good, but the only thing it really accomplished is making sure that the quality writers who knew him best had to stand by and watch Betancourt fuck it all up. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that says tell your best mates how you want your legacy to be handled, but don't bother keeping your will up to date.

If he really felt that strongly about it he could have done more that tell Neil and George "Bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine". He should have left someone in charge that knew the score. As to opposed to someone with an axe to grind.

I hear you brother.

I've read some Gaiman and loved most of it. (Particularly Neverwhere and his Sandman graphic novels.)

I agree that it's a shame that RZ was so firm on not allowing others to do Amber, since it clearly narrowed the field on which authors were willing to give it a shot. Gaiman would have done an excellent Amber. I'm not so sure about G.R.R. Martin.

I understand why Zelazny was so protective. It's just a shame that the reading public won't get to continue to experience Amber, and indeed that the books seem to be harder and harder to find on bookshelves at all.

Quote from: finarvyn;620977Gaiman would have done an excellent Amber. I'm not so sure about G.R.R. Martin.

I thoroughly enjoy both authors. If pressed I would say Martin is my favorite author, but I do think that style-wise Gaiman is the clear choice of who would have done the series the most justice. Honestly I think that a collection of short stories written by his friends and edited by Martin would have been amazeballs.

Quote from: jibbajibba;620857Well Try Gaiman.
American Gods has a bit of an Amber vibe as does Anansi Boys.

Gaiman was a good friend of Zelazny and has noted that he woudl have loved to have written more Amber stories if Roger hadn't personally asked him not to. In fact I think Gaiman pitched an Amber Anthology to Roger once with a bunch of the usual fantasy suspects (Martin, Cook, Etc etc) but Roger said no.

I find that a real shame and a little odd as he allowed 7 No Trump (good) and The Black Road War (not so good) adventure books when he was alive as well as the really quite awful Visual guide to Castle Amber. And by asking his mates not to write about Amber we end up with the Benecourt books and look how that turned out.

I have a Dying Earth anthology and its got some real gems in it becuase all of those guys participated and an Amber Book on the same vein I think would have been golden.

But its moot.

I have to disagree here.  You see, we might have seen Amber stuff by Gaiman and Martin, which might have been awesome (though I think both would have seriously altered the "vision" of Amber anyways; Gaiman is much more pretentious than Zelazny, and Martin is more cynical); but then we would also have seen a bunch of other stuff. And we'd have ended up with 50 "official", sanctioned, "legacy" novels by Betancourt or some hack like him.

By doing what he did, Zelazny made it clear that he was utterly opposed to that ever happening; it allowed Amber fandom to repudiate Betancourt's crap without any moral doubt.  It preserved the purity of the product, exactly like Zelazny wanted.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;620873I find that a bit odd as well. He obviously had strong feelings about his literary legacy, in that he didn't want others playing in his personal play ground. Which is fine, authors prerogative and all that. But this being the case why didn't he do anything about updating his will? Telling his friends (Gaiman, Martin, etc) that he didn't want others writing about Amber is all well and good, but the only thing it really accomplished is making sure that the quality writers who knew him best had to stand by and watch Betancourt fuck it all up. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the thought process that says tell your best mates how you want your legacy to be handled, but don't bother keeping your will up to date.

If he really felt that strongly about it he could have done more that tell Neil and George "Bury me with all my stuff, because you know it's mine". He should have left someone in charge that knew the score. As to opposed to someone with an axe to grind.

I believe that Zelazny didn't believe, at the time, that his situation was so grim; maybe he didn't want to believe it, and so he didn't finish fully settling his affairs the way he might otherwise would have.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;621677I have to disagree here.  You see, we might have seen Amber stuff by Gaiman and Martin, which might have been awesome (though I think both would have seriously altered the "vision" of Amber anyways; Gaiman is much more pretentious than Zelazny, and Martin is more cynical); but then we would also have seen a bunch of other stuff. And we'd have ended up with 50 "official", sanctioned, "legacy" novels by Betancourt or some hack like him.

By doing what he did, Zelazny made it clear that he was utterly opposed to that ever happening; it allowed Amber fandom to repudiate Betancourt's crap without any moral doubt.  It preserved the purity of the product, exactly like Zelazny wanted.

RPGPundit

But he already allowed the 2 choose your own adventure books and the frankly awful visual guide.
So its not like this was a pristine Harry Potteresque lock out. If Betancourt had been a 1/2 way decent writer and had any actual genuine ideas of his own those books woudl have been lapped up by any but the most ardent fans. Most casual fans of the series are not aware of Zelazny's wishes on the topic in any case. the Betancourt books failed simply becuase they were awful. If they had been good you would have ended up with a laod more crap.

But its moot of course.

As I say I have Songs of the Dying Earth and its got some great Vancian style stuff a few duffers but generally good stuff by great authors. The thing you notice is how important they all say Vance was to them. I think an Amber book of that nature would have been really good. The story of Delwin and Sand, the Fall of Osric, the Forging of Greyswandir all great little ideas for short stories, shit just a story about Random playing drums and late night poker in Texorami might be great.

Quote from: RPGPundit;621677By doing what he did, Zelazny made it clear that he was utterly opposed to that ever happening; it allowed Amber fandom to repudiate Betancourt's crap without any moral doubt.  It preserved the purity of the product, exactly like Zelazny wanted.

RPGPundit

Your argument kind of collapses in the last sentence there. The existence of the Betancourt books is proof positive that purity was not preserved. They can be ignored, reviled, and utterly dismissed. But you can't erase them. More is the pity.

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;621809Your argument kind of collapses in the last sentence there. The existence of the Betancourt books is proof positive that purity was not preserved. They can be ignored, reviled, and utterly dismissed. But you can't erase them. More is the pity.

Fair enough; but it does mean that no real Amber fan will EVER consider Betancourt's bullshit to be a legitimate part of canon.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jibbajibba;621688But he already allowed the 2 choose your own adventure books and the frankly awful visual guide.

That's different; those aren't things that can be mistaken for literature.

QuoteSo its not like this was a pristine Harry Potteresque lock out. If Betancourt had been a 1/2 way decent writer and had any actual genuine ideas of his own those books woudl have been lapped up by any but the most ardent fans.

But that's the point: first, that Zelazny's express statement made it impossible that any decent author would dare to touch Amber; and second, that even if it had been slightly less atrocious than Betancourt's garbage, it would still have been rejected by the anyone who was a serious fan of Amber in respect to Zelazny's wishes.

RPGPundit

The one silver lining to the Betancourt books is that they got people reading Amber and talking about Amber a bit. I hardly ever see any Amber books in stores anymore and Amber discussion boards have a lot less chatter than they did a few years ago. Many of the best Amber campaign sites no longer seem to exist any more.

Not only don't we have anyone writing Amber, no one seems to be reading it any more either. I fear that Zelazny's books are doomed to quietly fade away.

Quote from: finarvyn;623407The one silver lining to the Betancourt books is that they got people reading Amber and talking about Amber a bit. I hardly ever see any Amber books in stores anymore and Amber discussion boards have a lot less chatter than they did a few years ago. Many of the best Amber campaign sites no longer seem to exist any more.

Not only don't we have anyone writing Amber, no one seems to be reading it any more either. I fear that Zelazny's books are doomed to quietly fade away.

you get the occasional talk of the movie options being discussed. I think its great material for an HBO series, having as it does that Lost syle gradual reveal and disclosure that things are not what you thought they were. That would inspire the reading of the books again.
I know Syfy had the TV rights which would possibly be quite egregious although WB had the movie ones again now lapsed I think.
Zelazny's entire Opus is at risk of slipping away. Damnation Alley was made into a film, although a worse hack of a movie there will never be. No other movie or TV adaptations exist that I know of. Again a Jack of Shadows movie could be great.

I feel pretty confident that at some point, someone will "revive" him; there's too much material, in stuff like Amber, Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, Damnation Alley, etc. that would be just the kind of thing hollywood desperately needs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;624407I feel pretty confident that at some point, someone will "revive" him; there's too much material, in stuff like Amber, Lord of Light, Jack of Shadows, Damnation Alley, etc. that would be just the kind of thing hollywood desperately needs.

trouble is I think there are 4 schools of fantasy/scifi in movies.
The first wants Massive Epics aimed at early teens LorT, Hobbit , Harry Potter, Avatar etc.
The second wants Rom-Fantasy, Twilight,, and a whole bunch of movies I don't even know.
The third wants to cover straight to video junk
The last is the most interesting and wants to look at original 'deep' scifi or fantasy, stuff like Inception, Moon, etc

Now I can't really see a place in there for the kind of stuff Zelazny does its a bit pulpy, but a bit intellectual, a bit action but a lot of politicing. For me the place where this is happening is TV but there are a lot of historical dramas, known legends, well known fiction and reboots of old stuff to keep them busy for an age.

Quote from: finarvyn;623407Not only don't we have anyone writing Amber, no one seems to be reading it any more either. I fear that Zelazny's books are doomed to quietly fade away.

Just finished my first read-through of the Corwin and Merlin cycles in December.  The wife is reading them now.  We've also started an ADRP campaign with a group of friends.  

=P

Quote from: MollyMae;624790Just finished my first read-through of the Corwin and Merlin cycles in December.  The wife is reading them now.  We've also started an ADRP campaign with a group of friends.  

=P

Lo, there is hope for the future.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: MollyMae;624790Just finished my first read-through of the Corwin and Merlin cycles in December.  The wife is reading them now.  We've also started an ADRP campaign with a group of friends.

Fantastic! Glad to hear that there are folks still discovering the books and the game. I really was starting to think that only the old-timers read and played anymore.

Welcome to the boards, by the way! :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;624713trouble is I think there are 4 schools of fantasy/scifi in movies.
The first wants Massive Epics aimed at early teens LorT, Hobbit , Harry Potter, Avatar etc.
The second wants Rom-Fantasy, Twilight,, and a whole bunch of movies I don't even know.
The third wants to cover straight to video junk
The last is the most interesting and wants to look at original 'deep' scifi or fantasy, stuff like Inception, Moon, etc

Now I can't really see a place in there for the kind of stuff Zelazny does its a bit pulpy, but a bit intellectual, a bit action but a lot of politicing. For me the place where this is happening is TV but there are a lot of historical dramas, known legends, well known fiction and reboots of old stuff to keep them busy for an age.

Really? With the current megasuccess of Game of Thrones, you can't see any place for an ensemble cast fantasy epic full of scheming bastards?

RPGPundit

The thing is, I think that Game of Thrones is the current "hot" topic, but I'm not sure if its success will extend to other settings of a similar nature. Especially a property from the 1970's that hasn't shown much coolness in a long time.

In other words, I suspect that the "next Game of Thrones" will get big enthusiasm before Amber because Amber would be seen as something that's no longer relevant. :(

Quote from: RPGPundit;624973Really? With the current megasuccess of Game of Thrones, you can't see any place for an ensemble cast fantasy epic full of scheming bastards?

RPGPundit

Like I said TV is the place for it but I am dubious. It might work as I said up post becuase it has that Lost style slowly exposing layers of truth, kind of vibe, but  think after GoT the studious will be looking for the next thing not doing another of them. Epic TV seems to like new-ness in the same vein more than more of he same please. So Lost gave us Prison Break same concept where we get flashback and layers of reality but different setting and I think that cycle is run.
Wire gave us tangled plots with layers of protagonists and the bad guys are sometime good and the good bad. Maybe that and Soparaons lead to Got and Camelot and Borgias but the failure of the last two means that the next epic show is going to be more Homeland than Homer land if you know what i mean.

I would love to be wrong.  5 x 10 episode series for the Corwin Chronicles staring Christian Slater as Random, Damian Lewis as Brand, Viggo as Benedict and an Unknown as Corwin facing down Kevin Tod Smith's Eric would be great just a shame we can't resurect Ollie Reid to play Ganelon....

Quote from: finarvyn;625050The thing is, I think that Game of Thrones is the current "hot" topic, but I'm not sure if its success will extend to other settings of a similar nature. Especially a property from the 1970's that hasn't shown much coolness in a long time.

In other words, I suspect that the "next Game of Thrones" will get big enthusiasm before Amber because Amber would be seen as something that's no longer relevant. :(

I don't see why. There's nothing in Amber that's particularly outdated (Except maybe some computer things related to Merlin).

I played in an Amber campaign with a lot of Gormenghast elements. It would have worked better if we'd known that that would be the flavor of the thing and made appropriate characters. Corwin-series type characters are in for a lot of frustration in a Gormy setting.

Quote from: RPGPundit;625673I don't see why. There's nothing in Amber that's particularly outdated (Except maybe some computer things related to Merlin).

Agreed. It's not that the material is outdated or lacking relevance. It is more a matter of public awareness/access to the material. I first "discovered" the series about 15 years ago. My Dad has an entire bookshelf (or two) full of sci-fi/fantasy. I was looking for something to read one day when I ran across NPiA. Within a week I had read the entire Corwin cycle and passed the books along to my best friend. I've been re-reading and recommending the series (and Zelazny in general) ever since.

Anytime I engage in a discussion about Fantasy literature with a new friend/aquaintance/co-worker/whatever, Roger Zelazny is one of the first names I bring up. Never under estimate the power of "word of mouth". I don't sit around bitching about how "No one knows about Amber anymore". I look for, make, and take ANY opportunity to turn people on to it.

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;625800Agreed. It's not that the material is outdated or lacking relevance. It is more a matter of public awareness/access to the material. I first "discovered" the series about 15 years ago. My Dad has an entire bookshelf (or two) full of sci-fi/fantasy. I was looking for something to read one day when I ran across NPiA. Within a week I had read the entire Corwin cycle and passed the books along to my best friend. I've been re-reading and recommending the series (and Zelazny in general) ever since.

Anytime I engage in a discussion about Fantasy literature with a new friend/aquaintance/co-worker/whatever, Roger Zelazny is one of the first names I bring up. Never under estimate the power of "word of mouth". I don't sit around bitching about how "No one knows about Amber anymore". I look for, make, and take ANY opportunity to turn people on to it.

I had an oposite experience I read the series when I was 11 in '81 because they were in the school library. And was addicted from the first paragraph but it took me years to acquire my own copies and I only stumbled across the Merlin chronicles because I constantly searched bookshops looking for a copy of Jack of Shadows (never found one).
However I passed Nine Princes to a friend of mine that i consider has a great taste in fiction, he put me onto Abercrombie, Lynch and Martin after I had given up totally on fantasy. In any case he found the books riven with 1970s cliche, the romance, the dialogue the whle vibe put him off and he couldn't finish the Guns of Avalon.
So  I worry that the books may be dated...

Quote from: jibbajibba;625807I had an oposite experience I read the series when I was 11 in '81 because they were in the school library. And was addicted from the first paragraph but it took me years to acquire my own copies and I only stumbled across the Merlin chronicles because I constantly searched bookshops looking for a copy of Jack of Shadows (never found one).
However I passed Nine Princes to a friend of mine that i consider has a great taste in fiction, he put me onto Abercrombie, Lynch and Martin after I had given up totally on fantasy. In any case he found the books riven with 1970s cliche, the romance, the dialogue the whle vibe put him off and he couldn't finish the Guns of Avalon.
So  I worry that the books may be dated...

Sounds like a matter of personal preference. While I have gotten largely good feedback from the people I have recommended the Amber series to, the negative feedback always seems to come down to people who don't like first person narrative.

Also, while you are quite correct on the fact that finding Zelazny books in stores is difficult, the internet is the great equalizer.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=roger+zelazny&sprefix=Roger+Zela%2Caps%2C446

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;625832Sounds like a matter of personal preference. While I have gotten largely good feedback from the people I have recommended the Amber series to, the negative feedback always seems to come down to people who don't like first person narrative.

My story is similar to yours. I propagate Zelazny wherever I go. However, the people who have felt negatively about Nine Princes have all said: "It was too confusing" - a criticism I cannot comprehend.

And didn't think Amber is outdated one bit. A good book is a good book. And there are new people discovering it all the time.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;625833Also, while you are quite correct on the fact that finding Zelazny books in stores is difficult, the internet is the great equalizer.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=roger+zelazny&sprefix=Roger+Zela%2Caps%2C446

Yup things are changing from when I wondered round the west end searching all the book stores in vain.

Trouble is of course Amazon don't deliver to Singapore so basically I have to stick with my e-book version :)

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;625800Agreed. It's not that the material is outdated or lacking relevance. It is more a matter of public awareness/access to the material.

I don't think the majority of the general public had the foggiest idea that A Game of Thrones existed until the tv series became a megahit.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;626214I don't think the majority of the general public had the foggiest idea that A Game of Thrones existed until the tv series became a megahit.

RPGPundit

Well the second and third volumes made the NY Times bestseller list back in 1999 /2000 and A feast for crows went stright into the list at number 1 in 2005 and in 2010 they issued the 34th reprint of Game of Thrones which menat over 1million papper back sales.  but you are probably right .....

Funny, a few months ago, I did a rough outline for a friend, to demonstrate how ADRPG could easily be used to do a LOTR game, better than the existing games. This is rough, but you get the idea.

PCs are heroic, and get 100 points. Most NPCs get 0 points, and some may even get less (for exemple, a lowly, "cannon fodder" peasant will have negative points, forcing him to buy down his Strength and Warfare).

Ranks should be renamed for flavor, but that's all.
The normal level is human.
Someone who's gifted or had a little training would be chaos
Someone who's gifted + trained, or very experimented would be Amber rank.
Someone gifted and very experimented would be Ranked.

Everyone begins with all ranks at human, and buy up from here, save than...
- Elves have one Amber rank, and one Chaos rank in either Psyche or Warfare. They're considered as having one more rank for tasks relying on balance, or not leaving tracks. They can also walk on surfaces that shouldn't bear their weight.
- Hobbits begin with Chaos Psyché, and Amber Endurance. They get one more rank when being stealthy, or when resisting mental domination (not attacking!!).
- Dwarves have Chaos Strength, and Amber Endurance. They get one more rank for forge or stone cutting. They also begin with one free "1-point" item.
- Humans have Strength and Warfare at Chaos rank. They also get one more rank in any attribute of their chosing.
- Orks have Amber Strength, and Chaos Warfare.

- Karma works as before.
- Artefacts and créatures work as before, but artifacts costs 5 times as many points. Not everyone gets Anduril.
- Allies work as before.
- Shadows become Domains, and are used for things like Fondcombe (imladris), Lothlorien... Basic physical laws here can't be different, but Control of the realm is still possible, and represents the magic that imbues these lands, as well as their link to their rulers. They cost 5 times as much.
- Basic Pattern is available, and roughly works as it is (I should have made rules about how you must either sing or use some Item of Power as a focus, but I did this very quickly). It works very, very well to show the slow, but potent, nature of Middle Earth magic.
- Trumps become Clairvoyance. As in LoH, they don't allow travel, but only cost 20 points. Drawback: It can only be used either in an appropriate Domain (with the agreement of the Domain's Master), or with an appropriate artifact, such as a Palantir: 1 point item allows spying or communication with a fixed place or person, 2 points items allow a dozen persons/places (Others can be added on a case-by-case basis, if the character gets to know them well)'autres peuvent être ajoutés, si le personnage y a passé du temps ou les connait bien), and 4 points items allow spying or communication with whatever you want (like the Palantir)
- Compulsion costs 15 points, et works as usual.
- Conjuration still costs 20 points, but is renamed Enchantment (and this method is the only one that works, out of the corebook). A permanent enchantment can be created in 10 times the basic duration, if the character is present at every moment of the item's creation. Enchantment nonetheless allows temporary "blessings" on items, giving them qualities (max: 2 points), at a Karma cost equal to 2 times their point cost. The blessing must have a condition that make it expire ("until you reach Minas Tirith", "until you avenge your father"), but the character can stop it at any moment. When he does so, he gets back his Karma
- Logrus and Shapeshift should be disallowed, although shapeshift could exist in monsters from Morgoth or Sauron.

Trying this:
I'm doing an human.
Psyche Human, Strength Amber, Endurance Human, Warfare Chaos.
I'm using 30 points to get Psyche and Endurance to Chaos, 10 points to get Warfare to Amber
=> Psyche Chaos, Strength Amber, Endurance Chaos, Warfare Amber. I still have 40 points.
I'm bidding 30 points on both Str and Warfare
=> Psyche Chaos, Strength Ranked, Endurance Chaos, Warfare Ranked. I still have 10 points.
I buy the armor of my ancestors for (1*5) points, buy an ally for 6 points (say, gandalf), and am down with 1 point of negative karma.

The same guy could have spend boosted psyche instead, used 10 points to get it to Amber, 15 points in the psyche auction, 50 points for the pattern, and become one of the minor "powers" of middle earth, 20 points for Clairvoyance, and bought a basic Domain for 05 point

Quote from: Croaker;626260- Basic Pattern is available, and roughly works as it is (I should have made rules about how you must either sing or use some Item of Power as a focus, but I did this very quickly). It works very, very well to show the slow, but potent, nature of Middle Earth magic.

Wait...but...you're not walking between different Middle-Earth shadows, are you?

Overall I think a LotR conversion is a cool idea. But I do not see how Pattern or Logres could possibly apply.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: jibbajibba;626215Well the second and third volumes made the NY Times bestseller list back in 1999 /2000 and A feast for crows went stright into the list at number 1 in 2005 and in 2010 they issued the 34th reprint of Game of Thrones which menat over 1million papper back sales.  but you are probably right .....

Yeah but what does this mean in terms of the overall population who'd be familiar with it worldwide; before the TV show versus after it? Before it was certainly a hit in nerd circles; today its one of the most watched and most downloaded series in the world.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;627003Yeah but what does this mean in terms of the overall population who'd be familiar with it worldwide; before the TV show versus after it? Before it was certainly a hit in nerd circles; today its one of the most watched and most downloaded series in the world.

RPGPundit

Means its as well known as any book that hasn't been turned into a movie or TV show I guess.
The NY Times bestseller list isn't limited to just nerds though.

Oh and its terms of viewed TVs shows its not even close to any of the dozens of Pop Idol reality TV show spin offs. I mean its a great show has 3million fans on Facebook and got peak audiences of 4m in the US but compared to the 60 million fans Harry Potter has or the 25m that watch American Idol each week meh...
The book is a best seller for a book of any type. The TV show is big with geeks :)
Does get lots of downloads round though that is partly about its distribution license and the face that geeks love to download shit :)

Quote from: Panjumanju;626314Wait...but...you're not walking between different Middle-Earth shadows, are you?

Overall I think a LotR conversion is a cool idea. But I do not see how Pattern or Logres could possibly apply.

//Panjumanju

lol No, of course not.

Like I said, this was done in about 5 minutes, so you shouldn't poke at it too hard ;)

But IMO, probability manipulation is a great way to model middle earth magic. Slow, not flashy, but potent, and more potent as you take time to build effects fits very well. And the Blood Curse (or benediction) similarly fits very well, too.

Logrus and shapeshift shouldn't be used, I wrote it near the end ;)

Anyways, I think there's plenty proof that if GoT is selling well, Amber could sell well as a TV series too.  You'd just need to get a tv exec knowing it exists.

I can bet you that as we speak there are half a dozen different original and licensed Game-of-Thrones-Clones being worked on, most of which will entirely miss the point of what makes the actual series popular.. but hey, that's Hollywood for you.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;628024Anyways, I think there's plenty proof that if GoT is selling well, Amber could sell well as a TV series too.  You'd just need to get a tv exec knowing it exists.

I can bet you that as we speak there are half a dozen different original and licensed Game-of-Thrones-Clones being worked on, most of which will entirely miss the point of what makes the actual series popular.. but hey, that's Hollywood for you.

RPGPundit

I would expect there to be a slew of fantasy series and movie deals in the works due to LotR, Harry Potter and GoT but I haven't really seen it. You woudl have thought that The Belgariad, the Magician Series, the Chronicles of Thomas Covernant, the Druss books, the New Sun stuff, the Black Company etc etc would all have been snapped up  but I haven't seen the evidence.
Maybe John Carter was a bit of a bloody nose, maybe there are still enough Rom Coms and action movies staring Statham or Gerard Butler

Give them time. These are big productions.

RPGPundit

I'm not holding my breath.

Worse, if this were done, I fear this might fall into the pit trap that GoT escaped by virtue of its (mostly) not fantastic setting, that is, put more money into cheap SFX than into actual writing (Peter Jackson style).

I'd love to see some of these brought to the screen (I'm a diehard fan of the Black Company), but I prefer never seeing them than seeing them done like the sword of truth (Ok, actually, the base material was, IMO, shitty to begin with, but, nonetheless, the series is dreadful)

Quote from: Croaker;631672I'm not holding my breath.

Worse, if this were done, I fear this might fall into the pit trap that GoT escaped by virtue of its (mostly) not fantastic setting, that is, put more money into cheap SFX than into actual writing (Peter Jackson style).

Yes, now that is something I'd worry about! A "New adventures of Corwin" in full xena-style!

RPGPundit

Quote from: jibbajibba;628031I would expect there to be a slew of fantasy series and movie deals in the works due to LotR, Harry Potter and GoT but I haven't really seen it. You would have thought that The Belgariad, the Magician Series, the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Druss books, the New Sun stuff, the Black Company etc etc would all have been snapped up  but I haven't seen the evidence.

I am a huge fan of the Black Company series but would hate to see a hatchet job on it like SyFy did to Riverworld or Earthsea. Same for the Amber series.   Its a pity they can make a big budget of something like Jack and the Beanstalk but not some really good ones.  I would love to see a well made series for the Foundation Series or Ring World.  Covenant would be great visually but i never liked Thomas himself.  Kept wanting bad things to happen to him.  

Maybe someone needs to wrap up copies of the first Amber series, the first 3 Black Company series and the first 5 of the Belgariad, and hand them to Peter Jackson in person.

Quote from: Tolknor;632563Maybe someone needs to wrap up copies of the first Amber series, the first 3 Black Company series and the first 5 of the Belgariad, and hand them to Peter Jackson in person.

Well, I wouldn't want that.

He has shown a tendancy to make good fantastical movies, but crappy adaptations. He seems to think that his vision is better than the author, and that he can improve the books.

I don't mind at all the cuts, or minor alterations (like glorfindel being replaced by Arwen) that make the story shorter or easier to tell. These are at worst understandable, and don't change the spirit of the story.

But I HATE with a passion the added fantastic scenes designed to display cheap sfx (Theoden possessed by Saruman, anyone), or the things that he changed just because he thought it better (Why not leave Faramir as he was? Why bring Frodo to Osgiliath?). And it could have been worse. He wanted a final fight between Aragorn and Sauron (you can see it in the bonuses), and was barely dettered from it.

=> I have no real problems with the first movie, but the second and third are worse and worst.

Compare to, say, Nolan's Batman Movies (who, despite being a huge melting pot, respect the spirit of some Batman comics), Sin City, or Watchmen, all showing much greater respect for the source material

If Peter Jackson did Amber? I wouldn't be surprised to see Brand and Fiona tossing fireballs at each other, or Corwin having a final swordfight with Brand amidst pists of flame.

Quote from: Croaker;632689Well, I wouldn't want that.

He has shown a tendancy to make good fantastical movies, but crappy adaptations. He seems to think that his vision is better than the author, and that he can improve the books.

I don't mind at all the cuts, or minor alterations (like glorfindel being replaced by Arwen) that make the story shorter or easier to tell. These are at worst understandable, and don't change the spirit of the story.

But I HATE with a passion the added fantastic scenes designed to display cheap sfx (Theoden possessed by Saruman, anyone), or the things that he changed just because he thought it better (Why not leave Faramir as he was? Why bring Frodo to Osgiliath?). And it could have been worse. He wanted a final fight between Aragorn and Sauron (you can see it in the bonuses), and was barely dettered from it.

=> I have no real problems with the first movie, but the second and third are worse and worst.

Compare to, say, Nolan's Batman Movies (who, despite being a huge melting pot, respect the spirit of some Batman comics), Sin City, or Watchmen, all showing much greater respect for the source material

If Peter Jackson did Amber? I wouldn't be surprised to see Brand and Fiona tossing fireballs at each other, or Corwin having a final swordfight with Brand amidst pists of flame.

Sure, i can see it.  I was more pissed about Arwen being a major character.  Though, casting Liz Tyler as an elf certainly made sense.    As for Theoden, it was irritating to see him all glassy eyed but how do you explain Wormtounges control to the public as anything other then magic?  I snickered at it though.   I certainly understood not including things like the Barrowwrights and Bombadil.  I think that having Suron and Aragorn fight would have made me laugh so hard i might not have been able to control myself.

Now that you mention it I think the Amber series and Black Company would be better with a more dark look, like Watchman.  Certainly both do need a closer attention to the written details then marketability.  

I've always wanted to run ADRG in a Black Company setting...One of my players pulled Lady out as a daughter of Benedict.  She was very careful about it and as a huge fan of the series too she did it well.

Quote from: Tolknor;632823As for Theoden, it was irritating to see him all glassy eyed but how do you explain Wormtounges control to the public as anything other then magic?

Well, Magic in Middle Earth is (usually) subtle.

A lot of people didn't trust wormtongue, and he didn't "controled" anyone.
But he spoke. Of their fears. Telling them not to take undue risks. That they are tired, and should rest. This is a something we all can do.

There is absolutely no need of any magic for wormtongue, just honeyed words lulling them into complacency. If there was magic, it was there, in his words, increasing men's fear of danger, their lack of confidence, giving more power to his words... but nothing as crude as "control".

And certainly nothing as Sarumane possessing Theoden, with Gandalf doing a full-on exorcism.

Quote from: Tolknor;632823I was more pissed about Arwen being a major character. Though, casting Liz Tyler as an elf certainly made sense.

I was (and still am) of mixed minds on this.

On one hand, I think that a "pure" Tolkien movie would have been great. I love the books and think that a movie that exactly followed them would have been a great movie.

On the other hand, Tolkien's writing was a product of his era and today's audience may not respond as well to it. Arwen is a prime example. My teenaged daughter thought that Arwen was great, dressed as Arwen for halloween, started reciting elvish phrases she memorized from the movie, and generally fell in love with the Lord of the Rings. I don't think she would have loved the movie much at all without Arwen, and I suspect that many other girls are the same way. It's the whole "Disney Princess" thing. If you want a movie that attracts lots of modern viewers you need to have enough female characters who actually do things so that they stay interested.

Anyway, my two cents.

Quote from: finarvyn;634402I was (and still am) of mixed minds on this.

On one hand, I think that a "pure" Tolkien movie would have been great. I love the books and think that a movie that exactly followed them would have been a great movie.

On the other hand, Tolkien's writing was a product of his era and today's audience may not respond as well to it. Arwen is a prime example. My teenaged daughter thought that Arwen was great, dressed as Arwen for halloween, started reciting elvish phrases she memorized from the movie, and generally fell in love with the Lord of the Rings. I don't think she would have loved the movie much at all without Arwen, and I suspect that many other girls are the same way. It's the whole "Disney Princess" thing. If you want a movie that attracts lots of modern viewers you need to have enough female characters who actually do things so that they stay interested.

Anyway, my two cents.

Aside from lost Aragorn and the multiple endings I thought the movies were great made with real love and attention to detail.

But beside the point. I dinelt knwo Syfy had done earthsea or Riverworld. How bad were they ? They did have rights to Amber for a while so ....
Worst ever conversion of a fantasy book is without a down Tarnsman or Gor even though it has Jack Palance and Oliver Reed in it, what is more shocking is they actually made a sequel and Pqalance was in that as well.

I think that I would prefer having the guys who are currently doing the "game of thrones" TV series doing Amber, as a tv series, rather than Peter Jackson making a movie of it.

RPGPundit

I think a series is the only way to go, despite how fast the books flow. I think it needs a series to build and go with.

Quote from: RPGPundit;635787I think that I would prefer having the guys who are currently doing the "game of thrones" TV series doing Amber, as a tv series, rather than Peter Jackson making a movie of it.

RPGPundit

I have not seen game of thrones but the art direction i have seen is awesome.  I have friends who are wild about it.  I suspect i'll get the dvds someday.

As for syfy making Earthsea and Riverworld.. well.. i stopped watching earthsea after half an hour and was ---irritated.    I watched the Riverworld one because i loved the books greatly.  It was a pity that the people who wrote the screenplay for SyFy only read the back covers of the books.    Maybe a page or two, and thought the book cover art was pretty..... grumble.....   What a wasted opportunity.  They had some kind of spy story going on.  people resurrected dressed and periodically.   awful.  There are 2 riverworld movies though.  one, the above one, was in 2010 for syfy.  the other was in 2003 and while i saw it on syfy i don't know if they made it.  It was dreadful as well but at least it had a pretty boat in it.

Most likely the screenwriters for both movies read all the books and said, separately, "Heck, this Farmer guy really messed this up .  I can do so much better."    They didn't.