So, I'm strongly of the theory, borne out in my own experiences over the last 20 years or so, that Amber as a game makes good gamers great gamers, and has occasionally even made mediocre or poor gamers better.
Do you have any stories along these lines? Has this been your experience too?
See, Erick suggested that its Good Gamemasters that do this, he never claimed it was Amber itself that did it. Personally, I do think its the game itself, but I'm willing to think it might be that my own gamemaster skills coupled with Amber being the game I'm most passionate about that does it, and that someone else GMing Amber might not have the same result.
I think its the first thing, though. I think its Amber itself, because it is basically an intensive training ground for good players.
RPGPundit
Bullshit. To be cliche-y, it's not the sword, it's the swordman. You can have great roleplaying with Risus. Hell, you can have it with 4e, or V:tM. Of course, I do concede the point that some games tend to emphasize more the rp-ing aspect of the game, rules-wise, but you could say that of any rules light game. I don't suppose you're implying that Dread is an "intensive training ground", are you? What Amber does do is forcing the player to come up with creative solutions, or think out of the box, but that is not necessarily the same as being a good roleplayer. The fact that I know how to, say, Google for the address of the gun factory doesn't mean that I should have my Avalon-raised character do it. And come on, face it, it's just as easy to say "well, I've lived my whole life in Amber, so I address the King with the right protocol, in a fashion that will make him be forced to grant my wish". Only the GM (or the booing players), can prevent that from working.
Amber is a good workout for GMs, though.
I don't know about roleplaying as such, but ADRPG has made me the World's Greatest Sex Machine. Or at least I assume so…
I think it is the combination of those ingredients together, like any good recipe.
Good GM, Good game system/ game subject & story, & Good players who are enthusiastic about playing.
Spot on, Gabriel.
And, weilide, dude, you really should stop smoking that.
Quote from: SunBoy;302393Bullshit. To be cliche-y, it's not the sword, it's the swordman. You can have great roleplaying with Risus. Hell, you can have it with 4e, or V:tM. Of course, I do concede the point that some games tend to emphasize more the rp-ing aspect of the game, rules-wise, but you could say that of any rules light game. I don't suppose you're implying that Dread is an "intensive training ground", are you? What Amber does do is forcing the player to come up with creative solutions, or think out of the box, but that is not necessarily the same as being a good roleplayer. The fact that I know how to, say, Google for the address of the gun factory doesn't mean that I should have my Avalon-raised character do it. And come on, face it, it's just as easy to say "well, I've lived my whole life in Amber, so I address the King with the right protocol, in a fashion that will make him be forced to grant my wish". Only the GM (or the booing players), can prevent that from working.
Amber is a good workout for GMs, though.
Well then, I guess its all me.
RPGPundit
Just like that? You ill?
All hail to us; the Grand Game Masters! (yay!)
... and the boots to match! ("Who's Harry Crumb" quote)
Well, it could be that Amber is so full of great GM advice that the game itself forces GMs into grand mastery and therefore gives the GM the tools to turn good roleplayers into great ones.
And as much as you can have great roleplaying in D&D 4e, I have not yet experienced it or seen it the way I have in Amber games... Amber as a game promotes roleplaying exchange, player conflict and all of those things that bring the best out of players (and GMs).
Bollocks. You are lookiong for the egg when you need to find the chicken.
Amber attacts a certain sort of player or GM. Ones that put emphasis on character and interaction. You all play Amber and so you are the type of GM or player that thinks that is enjoyable and so you meet kindred spirits and you rate them as great GMs or Roleplayers.
A 4e player that gets their fun from the action and the way the system is laid out enabling you to mix and match tactical options on the micro scale might want a DM that creates interesting challenging encounters and plays the monster to the maximum of their powers not necessarily one that is great at putting personality into NPCs or building great plots.
A player or GM who comes to Amber and doesn't like that way of playing won't stay they will move to something else so you won't get to meet them.
Saying Amber makes great roleplayers is saying buying a ferrari must make you rich because all these guys driving round in ferraris have loads of cash.
Whoa....system matters.
Regards,
David R
Hmmm... guys.. we digress...
True, that Amber attracts a certain type of person.
But this is not to say these people do not or have not played
many other systems. I know I have... have you?
Next; the Ferrari analogy... jibbajibba, I expect better from you.
perhaps not rich... let's say, it makes you better on the road.
and yes... Amber
HAS made me a better GM, but not just 'cause Amber is an awesome system. I believe I would have come far in any. Some systems I've even reworked
to be better than it was. No. Amber has it's merit due to being a 'difficult' system to master GMing. Even playing. But like the Ferrari... would you want to go back to the Volkswagen? Or even a F.O.R.D.?
(fix or repair daily, like some games.)
True jibba, Amber is not for everyone.
But I am convinced that, given a great combination of gamers and GM, it doesn't matter what system is played, they'd all be fun. BUT, why not drive the Ferrari?
And... NM, you said it best: Amber as a game promotes roleplaying exchange, player conflict and all of those things that bring the best out of players (and GMs).
<"What's in the bag?"
"Dice."
Oh... You won't be needing those here.">
Quote from: gabriel_ss4u;302839Hmmm... guys.. we digress...
True, that Amber attracts a certain type of person.
But this is not to say these people do not or have not played many other systems. I know I have... have you?
Next; the Ferrari analogy... jibbajibba, I expect better from you.
perhaps not rich... let's say, it makes you better on the road.
and yes... Amber HAS made me a better GM, but not just 'cause Amber is an awesome system. I believe I would have come far in any. Some systems I've even reworked to be better than it was. No. Amber has it's merit due to being a 'difficult' system to master GMing. Even playing. But like the Ferrari... would you want to go back to the Volkswagen? Or even a F.O.R.D.?
(fix or repair daily, like some games.)
True jibba, Amber is not for everyone.
But I am convinced that, given a great combination of gamers and GM, it doesn't matter what system is played, they'd all be fun. BUT, why not drive the Ferrari?
And... NM, you said it best: Amber as a game promotes roleplaying exchange, player conflict and all of those things that bring the best out of players (and GMs).
<"What's in the bag?"
"Dice."
Oh... You won't be needing those here.">
You miss my point Gabe (may i call you Gabe is it a suitable contraction?).
I play games in a certain way. When I GM there is a lot of plot and colourful NPCs. Players have lots of scope to do as they wish with the plot roaring on relentlessly in the background. The NPCs the players meet are rich deep and colourful. They will be so even if I just made them up on the spot. Everyone has their own voice and foibles. When I play in a game my character will be fully formed and complex. They will have a back stroy etc. I always refer to character actions in the first person. I can play any character for a couple of sessions but for a long term game the charaters I prefer are smart, clever and resourceful. They tackle things sideways rather than head on.
Now I have played like this since I was 12 and we floundered through our early dungeon delving stage. I played and DMed in this way ever since. This was coloured without doubt by the fiction I prefered and the caracters I loved. NinePrinces, Jack of Shadows, Silk, The Grey Mouser etc. But I was playing this way long before Amber came along, hey when I play escape from Colditz all my little men have their own names and prefered methods of escape. I am fairly sure that the same is true for the majority of people that enjoy Amber (the roleplay thing not the Escape from Colditz thing).
If you like those sorts of games Amber appeals and you participate and others who like similar things connect with you and voila.
Now this method of play is not superior to any other method of play. If a bunch of friends get together make up archetypal characters and run through a dungeon complex where they kill stuff collect loot and get rich and there is no real plot or depth to it but everyone palying has fun then its a good game.
A great GM is one who can tailor his game to the mood and desires of the players so that everyone loves the game and has a great time. A great player is probably someone who participates fully in the game and engenders enjoyment in the other players. On this basic I am a mediocre GM and can vary from a great player to an ass depending on circumstance.
I wasn't comparing a ferrari to Amber either :-) and I drive a Renault Senic :-)
Quote from: JibbajibbaA great GM is one who can tailor his game to the mood and desires of the players so that everyone loves the game and has a great time. A great player is probably someone who participates fully in the game and engenders enjoyment in the other players. On this basic I am a mediocre GM and can vary from a great player to an ass depending on circumstance.
So, so true. Though I'm not so sure about the "great roleplayer" thing. You can be a piece of wood roleplaying and still be attracted to Amber because you like the novels. And you can succeed. Trust me, I've seen it. Not to mention being attracted to Amber because it is trendy and sophisticated.
Quote from: jibbajibba;303146(may i call you Gabe is it a suitable contraction?).
I play games in a certain way. When I GM there is a lot of plot and colourful NPCs. Players have lots of scope to do as they wish with the plot roaring on relentlessly in the background. The NPCs the players meet are rich deep and colourful. They will be so even if I just made them up on the spot. Everyone has their own voice and foibles. When I play in a game my character will be fully formed and complex. They will have a back stroy etc. I always refer to character actions in the first person. I can play any character for a couple of sessions but for a long term game the charaters I prefer are smart, clever and resourceful. They tackle things sideways rather than head on.
Now I have played like this since I was 12 and we floundered through our early dungeon delving stage. I played and DMed in this way ever since. This was coloured without doubt by the fiction I prefered and the caracters I loved. NinePrinces, Jack of Shadows, Silk, The Grey Mouser etc. But I was playing this way long before Amber came along, hey when I play escape from Colditz all my little men have their own names and prefered methods of escape. I am fairly sure that the same is true for the majority of people that enjoy Amber (the roleplay thing not the Escape from Colditz thing).
:-)
(may i call you Gabe is it a suitable contraction?).
Since you've allowed me jibba without complaint, sure.
Only my friends call me Gabe.
thanks jibba.
;)
I invite you to update yer profile. You sound similar to my GM.
thanks fer allowing me playful banter with you. Some many take offense easily in these forums.
I too, as we all, have those coloured perceptions of "
Our Amber" where the literature and movies of our experiences come alive in our descriptions of infinity. Those 'Personal Shadows'.
Being an ex-comic dealer, and reader, and military tactician, oh boy...
now I have to send my minions after you.
Oh yeah... we're friends.
new alliance,
Yes!
As I was reading your last post, I was agreeing much. I believe detail is so important.
Detail of characters, detail of substance (subplots, etc.) in stories, detail of descriptions... yeah, details.
Quote from: jibbajibba;303146A great GM is one who can tailor his game to the mood and desires of the players so that everyone loves the game and has a great time. A great player is probably someone who participates fully in the game and engenders enjoyment in the other players. On this basic I am a mediocre GM and can vary from a great player to an ass depending on circumstance.
Agreed.
I'd had that I'm currently playing Ars magica, and, well, it's all about roleplay ;) (Oh, and magic, too)
Quote from: jibbajibba;302825Bollocks. You are lookiong for the egg when you need to find the chicken.
Amber attacts a certain sort of player or GM. Ones that put emphasis on character and interaction. You all play Amber and so you are the type of GM or player that thinks that is enjoyable and so you meet kindred spirits and you rate them as great GMs or Roleplayers.
...
Saying Amber makes great roleplayers is saying buying a ferrari must make you rich because all these guys driving round in ferraris have loads of cash.
I guess you are both wrong and right here, jibbajibba. Of course Amber attracts a certain kind of players and GMs. And yes, an Amber player ain't automatically a better roleplayer than, let's say someone playing D&D 4E, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, or whatever.
Still I believe to have learned a lot about roleplaying thanks to the ADRPG. So I guess it made me a better roleplayer. And I have learned more from it about roleplaying than from any other system with the possible exception of DSA, which was my first system ever played.
E.g. D&D 4E creates good tabletop strategy players. Combat is an fun part of many roleplaying games, it even is what roleplaying systems developed from, but it is not primarily about "role"playing.
Furthermore I know quite a lot of roleplayers who don't like diceless roleplaying at all. I gave some of them the ADRPG rulebook as a lecture on good storytelling and they all agreed that it is excellent work and improved their roleplaying and storytelling. Thus even people who wouldn't want to play diceless, agree on the quality of Erick's effort.
Quote from: jibbajibba;302825Amber attacts a certain sort of player or GM. Ones that put emphasis on character and interaction.
Absolutely.
QuoteYou all play Amber and so you are the type of GM or player that thinks that is enjoyable and so you meet kindred spirits and you rate them as great GMs or Roleplayers.
Not necessarily. I can see how there's bias, but I wouldn't even consider it wrong: there is a difference between a munchkin who only knows how to crunch numbers and a powergamer who abuses numeric systems but also knows how to roleplay well.
The latter might not gain anything new from playing Amber, but the former would be forced to think in new ways. Of course, RPGs are rarely things that people are forced to do; AMBER is self-selecting to begin with. So changing preexisting players isn't really where I'd look at the "merits" of AMBER in shaping roleplaying habits.
QuoteSaying Amber makes great roleplayers is saying buying a ferrari must make you rich because all these guys driving round in ferraris have loads of cash.
On the whole, yes. But consider also that new players need to pick their skills up from somewhere, and inasmuch as they learn from other players, the existence of AMBER as a game causes some new players to learn from roleplayers and storytellers rather than gameists and munchkins (not to imply that one is the other.)