I'm reading the Amber Diceless rules again getting refreshed for a campaign that starts Wednesday. What really stuck out for me this time was Conjuration - I've never had a player who used it (or used it properly), but it seems like if you have sufficient time, you can just conjure up any Artifact or Creature you could want without spending the points on it. Is that the case? Am I missing something here?
(I was negligent in naming this thread - I meant stuff as in "Things", not as in good/bad.)
//Panjumanju
Yes, but as they don't have any points invested they are transient.
My interpretation is that you can Conjure up anything, but that it won't have real power. You might Conjure a blade but maybe not a Pattern-blade, for example, as items powered by Pattern may have some resistance to being Conjured.
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;841664Yes, but as they don't have any points invested they are transient.
That makes a lot of sense as a division - temporary just takes time, permanent takes points. I wish it were clearer in the book, but reading and re-reading that page, I think that was the intent.
//Panjumanju
Stuff conjured is just like stuff sought it shadow or dragged to you through logrus or created from your blood.
I tend to make it only work in a localised shadow environment. So I can conjure an Iron Golem as strong as Gerrard but if I move it to the adjacent shadow is weakens until a few shadows out its just a big statue.
The tricky part is when comeone combines
Ad Pattern
Sorcery
Conjuration
Then they can creat spells based on Pattern that can instantly conjure items imbued with Pattern.
Again it depends on how you frame your game.
If you say well Werewindle was created using powers available to the PCs as it exists in a world in which they are primary protagonists. then Conjuration should be able to create items of power but to make them permanent the player needs to spend points either from Stuff or as they gain XP.
You can nueter PCs very easily by saying "all the cool stuff in the books is beyond you to create in game" in just the same way that you can prevent them having a sword as cool/powerful as Greyswandir.
I houseruled Conjuration in a manner somewhat similar to finarvyn's, but you'll note that in Lords of Olympus I handled "item" stuff very differently with Olympian Artificing.
Conjuration always tended to be one of the powers players most often tried to abuse.
A player of mine had Conjuration, and she used it to create every mundane item her party needed, from food to a ship. Very useful, but not powerful.
Quote from: Evermasterx;841903A player of mine had Conjuration, and she used it to create every mundane item her party needed, from food to a ship. Very useful, but not powerful.
Character of mine had advanced Trump and conjurationa nd used conjuration to both conjure trumps, and to draw trumps of powerful items he could then conjure.
Mind you he also made a tapestry of the whole city of Amber from above that had a zoom feature so you could spy on any part of the city, as a gift for his mother.
Yeah, it's powerful (maybe too powerful, though I hesitate to say that in Amber) if it can be combined with any other power.
But if Conjuration is limited to items without real Power then it becomes a lot more useful in a general way instead of unbalancing the game.
Want a sword? You got it. Want Grayswandir? No chance.
Want an army? Conjure it, but they are just human-level dudes. Want an army of chaosites or amberites? No chance.
Conjuration is supposed to be a minor power, not one to rival Pattern or Logrus or other big-time powers. It's a nice power because it allows for a player to be really creative in odd situations, but not one that allows for the player to challenge major obsticles and overcome them.
When I consider the strength of any Power the first thing I do is look at the cost of the Power. The entire ADRP character-point currency is based on the notion that you get what you paid for. Now, if a character wanted to spend 50 points on Conjuration, this might put it in the Pattern range of value.
Quote from: finarvyn;842122But if Conjuration is limited to items without real Power then it becomes a lot more useful in a general way instead of unbalancing the game.
Want a sword? You got it. Want Grayswandir? No chance.
Want an army? Conjure it, but they are just human-level dudes. Want an army of chaosites or amberites? No chance.
Conjuration is supposed to be a minor power, not one to rival Pattern or Logrus or other big-time powers. It's a nice power because it allows for a player to be really creative in odd situations, but not one that allows for the player to challenge major obsticles and overcome them.
When I consider the strength of any Power the first thing I do is look at the cost of the Power. The entire ADRP character-point currency is based on the notion that you get what you paid for. Now, if a character wanted to spend 50 points on Conjuration, this might put it in the Pattern range of value.
But pattern can allow you to open a cupboard and pull out anything you like. Logrus allow you to grab whatever you like. So for 20 points you get a thing which does a fraction of another power that costs 50 , not 40 % of that power , like 5-10%.
On my Power tree typically ...
Magic (5 points)
Conjuration Basic (10) - allows conjuring of 1 point items
Conjuration Medium (5) - Allows 2 point items
Conjuration Advanced (5) - allows 4 point items
Conjuration Integrated (5) - allows conjuration to be combined with other powers
Conjuration Items of Power (5) allows 8 point items
Conjuration Legendary (5) allows conjuration of 16 point items
so you end up with a "Full" Conjuration of 40 points and someone could pick up a basic for 10 points on top of Magic (I add magic as an entry point for everything from Powerwords through Sorcery and other additional magics, like elemental or Mirror magic)
Quote from: jibbajibba;842126On my Power tree typically ...
Magic (5 points)
Conjuration Basic (10) - allows conjuring of 1 point items
Conjuration Medium (5) - Allows 2 point items
Conjuration Advanced (5) - allows 4 point items
Conjuration Integrated (5) - allows conjuration to be combined with other powers
Conjuration Items of Power (5) allows 8 point items
Conjuration Legendary (5) allows conjuration of 16 point items
so you end up with a "Full" Conjuration of 40 points and someone could pick up a basic for 10 points on top of Magic (I add magic as an entry point for everything from Powerwords through Sorcery and other additional magics, like elemental or Mirror magic)
Well, that's a little different because you've built a power tree such that a character is spending near-Pattern numbers of points, which means that they ought to have near-Pattern level of use out of Conjuration. My point was mostly that you get what you pay for, and if a power seems too cheap for what you get then the GM is doing it wrong.
Do you have a website that lists off all of your power trees? I'd like to take a peek at what you do with partial powers. :)
Quote from: finarvyn;842674Well, that's a little different because you've built a power tree such that a character is spending near-Pattern numbers of points, which means that they ought to have near-Pattern level of use out of Conjuration. My point was mostly that you get what you pay for, and if a power seems too cheap for what you get then the GM is doing it wrong.
Do you have a website that lists off all of your power trees? I'd like to take a peek at what you do with partial powers. :)
No I took my site down when my last web game died.
generally I change the power tree for each game any way at least beyond the basics.
Its all quite vanilla stuff though until people start adding their own advanced tweaks like ...
Pattern Base (10)
> Shadow Walking (5)
>> Hellride (5)
>> Royal Way(5)
>>> Follow Shadow Trail (5)
>>>> Pass through shadow without Trace (5)
>>> Shadow Walk from Amber(5)
This was added by a PC who wanted to be the best Hunter in all of Shadow.
So he has some Advanced Pattern powers, like shadow walking from Amber, has some Additional non-cannon Shdow skills , Follow Shadow Trail and Pass though Shadow without Trace but doesn't have any Pattern Lens power or mould shadow Reality. But gets to this for 40 points which is cheaper than the base cost of Pattern.
I allow players to add this stuff in play as they try to extend their powers to do something new, they just have to pay stuff for it and of course actually think of it.
The tree means you can have very advanced power in one area but be almost entirely ignorant of another. Like a Physicist who knows advanced String theory but never really bothered to get more than a superficial knowledge of Newton's Laws of Motion.
I just hate it, and was dismayed when it appeared they were gonna add it in LoGaS.
I like the conjuration Finarvyn speaks of (and this looks very much like what Mandor is doing), not the conjuration that can bring up instant anything.
=> I'd have Conjuration of shadow stuff be rather quick and impromptu, like Mandor does, going upward with volume. So a real utility power.
I suppose I could let it conjure things with points, but the higher the cost, the more these would be linked to a given shadow / susceptible to dispelling by Pattern/Logrus/A counterspell: a simple probability manipulation would easily disable a powerful golem, for exemple.
Quote from: jibbajibba;843071Pattern Base (10)
> Shadow Walking (5)
>> Hellride (5)
>> Royal Way(5)
>>> Follow Shadow Trail (5)
>>>> Pass through shadow without Trace (5)
>>> Shadow Walk from Amber(5)
This was added by a PC who wanted to be the best Hunter in all of Shadow. So he has some Advanced Pattern powers, like shadow walking from Amber, has some Additional non-cannon Shadow skills , Follow Shadow Trail and Pass though Shadow without Trace but doesn't have any Pattern Lens power or mould shadow Reality. But gets to this for 40 points which is cheaper than the base cost of Pattern.
I allow players to add this stuff in play as they try to extend their powers to do something new, they just have to pay stuff for it and of course actually think of it. The tree means you can have very advanced power in one area but be almost entirely ignorant of another."
This is basically what I do: power-trees grown incrementally and organically through gameplay. Such makes a PC's powers so much more personal and interesting, to both the player and to me (the GM). That I could never find another GM who used such power-trees is largely why I have been GM and not a player for years.
See I read Conjuration the opposite. First you need to buy conjuration for 20 poi ts then you need to spend the points on the item. So you end up being better off with pattern for you item needs. (Which I think was Eric's intent).
Ontop of all the time it takes to actually conjure the item. It didn't seem to be a power useful in an action movie, unless you cut in an A-team montage).
Sorcery is the one I have seen most abused.