TheRPGSite

First, I realize that this is the Amber Diceless RPG forum, so if this post doesn't fit, I apologize.

Second, GURPS is a game the system of which is not my cup of tea, but the sourcebooks are really nifty for other games. I think the ADRP game makes for a really, really good sourcebook for those who wish to use Amber in their games, regardless of the system, much along the lines of the GURPS sourcebooks.

Given that the Amber books posit a milieu which is quite literally infinite in nature, it seems to me that Amber characters and tropes could show up in any game system. We see from the books that local physical laws vary between shadows, so it's no stretch to imagine that each different game system represents a different set of laws.

So, I figured I'd start a thread where we could discuss how other games could handle what we see in the Amber novels, using the ADRP as a handy reference.

I'll start off with an example. If I was going to use Amberites as NPCs (or even PCs) in a D&D campaign, I'd make a template for them. In my opinion, this is easy, because there is already a template that seems to fit them in Deities & Demigods: Divine Rank 0. Divine Rank 0 imparts these characteristics to whatever creature the template is applied to:

Immunity to transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, and mind-affecting effects.

Damage reduction 10/epic

Fire resistance 5

Spell resistance 32

Immortality

Rename the template "Amberite" or "Scion of Amber," and you're good to go. Oh, I guess you could tweak it a little. Maybe amend it so that the immunities become resistances against effects caused by other Amberites. Fire resistance could be changed to Energy resistance or dropped. Add fast healing 5. Create a new ability, Slow Regeneration, to reflect the ability of Amberites to regrow even nerve tissue like eyes given a long time to heal.

I think my take on "D&D Amber" would be a little different. I'm not sure that I would use Deities & Demigods just because I hate to make Amberites that much better than normals.

Using the Merlin books as a model, it would appear that an Amberite is more like an olympic caliber athlete rather than a god, so I would be more inclined to put a typical Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution into the 16-18 range. (This also depends upon which version of D&D you play -- there is a clear stat inflation with successive editions so if you are looking at 3E this might get boosted a tad. I play OD&D or 1E AD&D and am thinking about stat scales more appropriate to those versions.)

What I would also do is probably start an Amberite out at 4th level or so adn perhaps a Chaosite at 3rd level. (In the older D&D versions they have "level titles" and 4th level is "hero" so I would assume that a typical Amberite is a lot like a hero in ability.) I would put together classes for Trump Artist, Pattern Walker, Shape Shifter, Fighter, Logrus Master, and so on. Put together BAB or THAC0, put in certain class abilites at specific levels, and go from there.

I started to do this once and got sidetracked somehow, so it never got finished. I can look to see if I can find my notes if there is interest.

I'm not a huge GURPS fan, but there are a couple of interesting points on how to combine GURPS with ADRP:

1. GURPS builds characters using 100 points, the same totals as ADRP suggests.

2. GURPS has 4 stats (IQ, STR, Health, and Dex) which are similar to ADRP's Psyche, Strength, Endurance, and Warfare.

This tells me that it would be probably easy to blend the two games together and import point values from the various sourcebooks. We'd get some sort of "Diceless GURPS" but that could be interesting as well.

Just my thinking....

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'll start off with an example. If I was going to use Amberites as NPCs (or even PCs) in a D&D campaign, I'd make a template for them. In my opinion, this is easy, because there is already a template that seems to fit them in Deities & Demigods: Divine Rank 0. Divine Rank 0 imparts these characteristics to whatever creature the template is applied to:

You might be interested in:

http://www.average-bear.com/amber/d20/index.html

For my part, on the other hand, I definitely prefer my Amberites larger than life; so yes, in D&D I'd probably make them demigods at least.

Hell, in my Blacksand campaign the Amberites WERE the "gods" of the setting.  That whole campaign took place within a backstory that the setting was part of a battlefield of the patternfall war, though none of the players were really in on that whole part of the setting's metaphysics.

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I've been thinking about this again.

Has anyone here ever played TSR's old SAGA system from the 90's? It was put out in two different formats (DragonLance and Marvel Supers) and it seems like it has some possibilites as a game system which could be used for Amber.

* It has 4 base stats. (DL uses sub-stats and uses 8, but the monsters are rated in 4 stats)

* It has a simple skill system.

* It can be used for superhero gaming, so it would seem that greater-than-human Amber types could be portrayed well within the system.

* I believe that there is some magic system (certainly there is one in DL, and I assume that superheroes like Dr Strange need one in Marvel)

Has anyone played this? Anyone run Amber with it?

I'm familiar with it, unfortunately the Dragonlance version left a lot to be desired. I think it had a lot of potential (but DL 5th age was a really bad vehicle for it, and badly executed).

Like a few other games, like Everway, I could see running Amber with SAGA.

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Isn't Everway a swine game?

Its more like a Dirty hippy flowerchild new age claptrap game. And Jonathan Tweet might have been munching a bit too much Peyote and singing one too many verses of Kumbayah when he wrote up the setting, but no, its not a Swine game.

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And a 'swine game' is what exactly?

Quote from: Rel FexiveAnd a 'swine game' is what exactly?

I believe the definition ran along the lines of "a game for players who are more interested in feeling superior to everyone else than in having fun." Apparently that includes all the RPGs that ever came out of the Forge and White Wolf; also, Nobilis.

And various others.

Note that also, a Swine game will claim all sorts of innovation and brilliance without any merit to that claim. In other words, its pretentious.

Games like Over the Edge, Everway, or Amber, aren't Swine games because they are generally focused on being a game, being fun; and especially because the radical claims of innovation you could make about them would be TRUE. They really are innovative and brilliant, unlike games like Vampire, Nobilis, Dogs In The Vinyard, etc, which claim to be but really aren't.

Amber and Everway are also, in general, relatively humble about any claims, way moreso than other games that make much louder cries for attention and deserve far less praise.

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Ah.  An 'Animal Farm' reference eh?

But how many games these days claim to be amazing and new and innovative?  Seems like all of them, sometimes.

Quote from: Rel FexiveAn 'Animal Farm' reference eh?

Hunter S. Thompson, rather.

It's a Pundit phrase.  He coined it, he gets to define it, and decide which games are and which games aren't, and why.

It appears to have more to do with the attitude of the people who wrote, promote, and play the game than it does with the actual game itself.  That's just an observation, however; given that I'm not telepathic, I can't say this for certain.
Even if I were... ew.  Why would I want to go in there?
The phrase is his, and belongs to him and he owns it, and what it is too.
It matters not a whit whether the distinction is based in fact or even rational consideration.  

Quote from: GrimGentHunter S. Thompson, rather.

Having never read the first, nor anything by the second, I can be forgiven for assuming.  Though both probably work.

I'm a bit nervous jumping in on this here derailed train, because I'm certain that there's a lot of extra baggage here of which I am unaware ... but what the heck, why not throw caution to the wind... :)

I envision a bunch of swine huddled together in the muck grunting and wallowing and not really producing anything useful but splashing mud around, so to me a "swine game" sounds a lot like a bunch of gamers who make lots of noise but not much of a game.

Am I at all close? :raise:

To be on track, once it arrives I might follow an amusingly circular track and stat some Amberites with 'Spirit Of The Century'.

I seem to remember on the old GoO boards that someone suggested that Mutants & Masterminds would be a good game system to run for Amber. I don't know much about it except that, while d20 based, it has power points and apparently works well for superhero campaigns.

Amber and superheros have a lot in common.

Anyone know more about M&M for Amber?

Hi new the the forum so just readig old messages.
The idea that Amberites could be played in D&D with just high stats doesn't work. Random and Corwin together lift a s class mercades so they are at least 10 times stronger than a human. Corwin can regnerate his eyes so I would say he has more than 18 constitution. However their inteligence is not massively over human norms. Fromt eh books Corwin would have maybe 14 -16 int I would guess.
The various Super hero game systems would work as they all have rules for exceptional stats, even if those rules don't perhaps suit the style of combat etc
I don't think games that replicate the Amber RPG's skill system are the desired end point as you are replicating an imperfect copy and its better to go back to first principles.
No the only answer is Bunnies and Burrows. The attributes work well and use a system that would allow Amberites to be much stronger than humans but still have a range of values between them. Combat is slick and there is a lot of space for mysticism and mental powers. Yup B&B it is. If only we could get over them all being Rabbits...

Quote from: jibbajibbaThe idea that Amberites could be played in D&D with just high stats doesn't work.

Well, I ran a game of this once decades ago with OD&D and I got it to work out just fine. The key is not to try to simulate everything (such as the eye regeneration) and focus more on the key elements that make Amber what it is.

Having powers for Amberites can be accomplished if the power is similar to a class. For example, a character might be a 4th level Patternwalker and a 2nd level Trump Artist. The class choices would be similar to the powers list from ADRP -- Pattern, Logrus, Shape Shift, and so on. Take a list of what characters can do with each power and assign them to various levels.

Having Amberites more powerful than mundanes is easily done with higher levels than the common folk -- this grants them greater hit points, offensive ability, and better ability to use powers. Heck, D&D sort of does this already.

Have to ponder this Bunnies & Burrows Amber idea. I like the way you think! :cool:

The Warren of which all other Warrens are mere shadows...

I hope no one minds a little thread necro, but I've been thinking about this recently and seemed like reviving an old thread was better than starting a whole new one.

I've recently been involved in a playtest of 13th Age and I've been thinking about doing Amber using that rules system. 13th Age is a new game which is essentially a streamlined 3E/4E blend. It gets rid of the miniatures aspect of the game, so while it keeps powers similar to 4E (at-will, encounter, daily) it seems to have removed all of the picky battleboard stuff.

Part of what I like about 13th Age is that the basic rules system seems pretty familiar to me already, the complexity isn't as severe as either 3E or 4E, and they place a decent emphasis on storytelling and not just combat. In character generation you need to establish (1) one unique thing about your character, (2) several good or bad relationships with some of the movers-and-shakers of the world, and (3) some simple background skills. The relationship part certainly seems to fit an Amber setting, where someone might be tied to various Elders.

A couple of thoughts about what I might try:

(1) I would be tempted to create a list of simple powers (at-will, encounter, daily) for each of Pattern and Logrus and Trump and so on. For example, "Walking the Pattern" could be a daily ability while "Pattern Defense" might be at-will.

(2) Basic shadow creatures would use the "mook" rules and get mowed down. This tends to seperate "real" folks from shadow folks. Characters wouldn't be invincible, but would be equal to a large number of shadow creatures.

(3) I was thinking of essentially eliminating character advancement, at least in a traditional sense. Have players create characters at perhaps 4th level and then mostly stay there. Enough experience could translate to slowly adding extra abilites as per ADRP.

Anyone familiar enough with 13th Age (or 4E) to lend some thoughts or ideas about this?

Here's a start. Pattern isn't really attack based, but has some powers that might translate well into 4E.

Pattern [50 points]

Affect Probability (At-Will)
With concentration, you can change the odds that a desired event will occur. This translates into a +2 or -2 modifier to a die-roll of your choice.

Pattern Defense (At-Will)
You can walk the Pattern in your mind to use its power to defend you against magical attacks. This translates into a +4 AC against Sorcery and a +8 AC against Logrus or Chaos forces. You are unable to attack while using a Pattern Defense.

Travel Through Shadow (Encounter)
This is the ability to move from one Shadow to another, typically in between Encounters. You can do a regular Shadow walk, the "Royal Way" (slow), or a "Hellride" (fast). You can choose to move to a Shadow where time flows faster or slower, a Shadow with a particular resource, or anywhere your imagination can take you.

Walk The Pattern (Daily)
If you walk the Pattern, you can regain your memory, lift curses, or otherwise restore your body to its natural state. Once in the center, the Pattern will teleport you to any location of your desire.

Aything obvious I'm missing? Does this seem doomed to suck?

I have been out of gaming so long i have no idea what 13th age or 4E is.  But i have lots of time on my hands and a way-too-active mind.  I would be happy to help toss ideas around if you can give me a bit of direction to get a frame of sufferance settled.

4E is the 4th edition D&D, soon to be replaced by WotC by "D&D Next." It runs a lot like older editions of D&D except that it's loaded with feats and powers and such. The powers can be used "at will" (once each turn) or by "encounter" (once each battle) or "daily" (once per adventure).

This was sort of my starting point, trying to imagine what powers fit into Pattern (and basing it from the ADRP rulebook), then deciding how often to allow characters to use them.

My hope was to keep the basic point structure of ADRP and allow players to buy attributes the way 4E does it, although I hadn't decided if it was better to stick to the six from D&D (str, int, wis, con, dex, cha) or use the four from ADRP (psy, str, end, war). I wanted to tinker with the powers first, then look to see how other aspects of the rules would shake out.

Logrus Mastery [45 points]

Logrus Attack (At Will)
You can send a 2d6 Chaos Bolt attack at a foe.

Logrus Defense (At Will)
You can fill your body with the power of the Logrus, making it resistant to magical attacks of Pattern or Magic. This translates into a +2 MD against these powers. You cannot have Logrus Defense up at the same time as a Logrus Shield.

Logrus Shield (At Will)
You can cause a physical shield of pure Logrus to materialize in front of you, defending you against physical attacks from a single direction. This translates into a +4 AC against all physical attacks. You cannot have a Logrus Shield up at the same time as Logrus Defense.

Logrus Sight (Encounter)
You may use the Logrus as a lens to see the aura of someone or something, typically revealing if it has powers of Pattern, Logrus, Trump, or Magic.

Search with Logrus Tendrils (Encounter)
You may reach through Shadow with the Logrus in order to find and retrieve something you desire. Each round you would roll to determine success. The GM will determine the TN based on uniqueness and proximity of the item chosen.

Move with Logrus Tendrils (Encounter)
You may reach through Shadow with the Logrus in order to find something you desire, then pull yourself toward it. Each round you would roll to determine success. The GM will determine the TN based on uniqueness and proximity of the item chosen.

Walk the Logrus (Daily)
If you walk the Logrus, you can regain your memory, lift curses, or otherwise restore your body to its natural state. The Logrus causes madness, however, which may lead to delusions and/or blackouts.

Logrus Spell Storage (Daily)
If you also have Sorcery powers, you can use the Logrus as a spell storage, as long as you determine in advance which spells are to be placed there. These spells will decay in roughly a day.

ah well, i figured out what 4E was but its been 2 decades since i played D&D by the book regardless of edition.  I did in the 70s and 80s, but by the early 90s i was running a game store and mainly playing Shadowrun, Stalking the Night Fantastic, ADRG, and a variety of table games like ancients, Fire&Fury, & warhammer of both flavors.  I also played Warlock, which was a D&D variant developed by gamers in the Caltech Gaming Group(late 70s).  My game group had developed further and in contact with enclaves of warlock players shared our stuff with them.    

So the best i can do is say, Cool stuff dude!

Trump Artistry [40 points]

Sense Trump (At Will)
You can detect the presence of Trump powers on items. You may also be able to get a sense of the origin of the Trump -- Amber or Chaos or other.

Trump Defense (At Will)
You use the power of a Trump card to defend against magical attacks. This translates into a +4 AC against Sorcery and a +2 AC against Logrus or Chaos forces. You are unable to attack while using a Trump Defense.

Trump Identification (At Will)
You can try to identify the identity of the caller when you get a Trump Call. This power typically works only if you have a Trump of the person making the call, as you are using your deck to sense who is Trump active.

Trump Sketch (Encounter)
With simple artistic tools, you can create a sketch in a few minutes and give it the power of Trump. The power given to this item will typically dissipate within a few minutes.

Create Trump (Daily)
Given a few hours, you can create a permanent Trump image of a person or place.

That's an unusual idea, there. Can't say I'd be qualified to judge the execution.

Frankly, I'm undecided about it as well. Part of me wants to keep Amber pure diceless, but I want to expose the kids of one of my players to Amber and I know they don't have the patience and/or maturity to handle long sessions without dice. (They are attracted to dice like moths to a flame.) My hope was to find something dice-based that I could enjoy running for them. Not sure if this is it or not, but I'm having fun brainstorming and tinkering with it. :)

Travesty!

//Panjumanju

My brother and I have had numerous discussions about how to adapt D&D for playing Amber with dice. The closest we were able to get was running a 3.5 adapted version of Planescape. The way we saw it, Amberites had to be built using Epic level rules. You had your base D&D classes but Pattern or Logrus users were prestige classes that were added on around like level 10. We never got a chance to actually play it because I finally broke down and bought the ADRPG source book PDFs from drivethru.com

Quote from: Sydius Mendoza;639351The way we saw it, Amberites had to be built using Epic level rules. You had your base D&D classes but Pattern or Logrus users were prestige classes that were added on around like level 10.

I used to think that way, but of late it occurs to me that the "right" approach for my game is to go the other way. Rather than boosting Amberites up to Epic style characters (the point where I think a lot of RPGs tend to break down) I've been thinking of the Amberites as normal folk and downgrading Shadow people.

In other words, suppose in a D&D game 4th level is a typical adventuring level. Set the Amberites closer to 4th level and make the monsters a lot weaker. That way the monsters can still die quickly but characters still feel like they (PCs) can be defeated.

Just my two coppers. ;)

Quote from: finarvyn;639730I used to think that way, but of late it occurs to me that the "right" approach for my game is to go the other way. Rather than boosting Amberites up to Epic style characters (the point where I think a lot of RPGs tend to break down) I've been thinking of the Amberites as normal folk and downgrading Shadow people.

In other words, suppose in a D&D game 4th level is a typical adventuring level. Set the Amberites closer to 4th level and make the monsters a lot weaker. That way the monsters can still die quickly but characters still feel like they (PCs) can be defeated.

Just my two coppers. ;)

Hmm, interesting; but I would suspect that for any long-term D&D player that wouldn't so much feel "powerful" as really weird.

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