Amber Beyond Amber

[Panjumanju]

Since running an Amber DRPG game, it has become hard to replace as the most intense and invested RPG experience I, or the players, have had. This has nothing to do with my ability to run a game, as evinced by running dozens of different kinds of games with this same group in varying capacities, and never having the consistent success I did with Amber. I think this speaks to the strength of the system, or perhaps the system in conjunction with its source material.

The problem I run into is this: how to adapt the success of Amber to tackle a non-Amber story, without sacrificing its advantages? I can't imagine trying to adapt the system to deal with anything less than ubermen. Understanding that different systems have different uses, and if I wanted something "smaller in scope", such as a grass-roots level game where characters cannot lift cars over their heads, then Amber is probably not the system for it. How can you repeat the success of Amber, without inter-dimensional travel, without ubermen, without...well, is it really Amber any more at that point, and would it work at all?

I'm sure greater minds than mine have put their head to this issue since 1991, and I'm curious if anyone here has tried to stretch Amber beyond Amber, and if anyone has had any success as such.

//Panjumanju

[flyingmice]

Dang it! I thought you were going to be talking about adventuring in either the world of the Primal Pattern, or the world of Corwin's Pattern.

-clash

[daniel_ream]

I think this speaks to the strength of the system, or perhaps the system in conjunction with its source material.

I sincerely doubt it has to do with the system or source material, since there really isn't a system, and getting emotional investment out of gamers is something that happens all the time in other rulesets.

I have no idea how you play Amber - or more accurately, how you're playing Amber differently from every other RPG you play - so anything I say is wild speculation at best.  Let me suggest this for consideration: what encourages emotional investment in ADRPG isn't the fact that the Scions of Amber are ubermenschen[1]; it's that the fact that they are ubermenschen means that all the normal mundane things that gamers normally like to have their avatars obsess over - XP, gold, magic widgets, followers, etc - just don't matter.  You want a $THING?  Go for a walk, it's yours.  Now what?

Amber's basic setup ensures that the only thing the characters can care about are their relationships with each other and the important NPCs, because those are the only things that you can't trivially go out and get during a short walk through Shadow.

That's not unique to Amber.  There are games like Burning Wheel that bake character motivation right into the mechanics, books like Play Dirty that talk about making emotional investment part of any game, and source material like Hercules: The Legendary Journeys where none of the protagonists really care about material goods or temporal power.

So if you're not getting the same level of emotional buy-in from your players in other games, look at what those games encourage your characters and players to care about, and try adjusting those things.



[1] And, also, there's very little in the source that backs up the ADRPG's depiction of the Scions as being superpowerful demigods.

[Narf the Mouse]

I sincerely doubt it has to do with the system or source material, since there really isn't a system, and getting emotional investment out of gamers is something that happens all the time in other rulesets.

I have no idea how you play Amber - or more accurately, how you're playing Amber differently from every other RPG you play - so anything I say is wild speculation at best.  Let me suggest this for consideration: what encourages emotional investment in ADRPG isn't the fact that the Scions of Amber are ubermenschen[1]; it's that the fact that they are ubermenschen means that all the normal mundane things that gamers normally like to have their avatars obsess over - XP, gold, magic widgets, followers, etc - just don't matter.  You want a $THING?  Go for a walk, it's yours.  Now what?

Amber's basic setup ensures that the only thing the characters can care about are their relationships with each other and the important NPCs, because those are the only things that you can't trivially go out and get during a short walk through Shadow.

That's not unique to Amber.  There are games like Burning Wheel that bake character motivation right into the mechanics, books like Play Dirty that talk about making emotional investment part of any game, and source material like Hercules: The Legendary Journeys where none of the protagonists really care about material goods or temporal power.

So if you're not getting the same level of emotional buy-in from your players in other games, look at what those games encourage your characters and players to care about, and try adjusting those things.



[1] And, also, there's very little in the source that backs up the ADRPG's depiction of the Scions as being superpowerful demigods.

Right; Corwin never battled to the gates of Amber alone, all his followers killed on the way, through a horde of soldiers.

Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

Right; Corwin never battled to the gates of Amber alone, all his followers killed on the way, through a horde of soldiers.
Maybe I'm mis-remembering.

And neither did Benedict fell trees to his left and his right with ONE blow when he tried to kill Corwin after being informed that he'd slept with Dara.

Übermenschen? No fucking way

[daniel_ream]

I know I'm asking a lot by expecting reading comprehension on the fucking Internet, but you may want to re-read the Ascent of Kolvir scene again.  Take note of the fact that they were fighting up a single file stair against vastly inferior opponents with a buffer of mooks in front of them, and Bleys got chucked over the side before Corwin made it to the front, and that as soon as they got to the top they gave up because they were surrounded by the same mooks.  Context matters.

Benedict's arm moved with near-invisible speed, like the tongue of a toad, and his blade passed through a sapling I'd guess at three inches in diameter.

I can do that with a decent machete.

The Scions of Amber are far superior to normal people, even highly skilled normal people.  But they aren't demigods, and they really aren't anywhere near as powerful as the ADRPG says they are.

Seriously, this "OMG t3h Amber1tes are s00perheroeZ!!1" nonsense has been debunked a million times already.

[Justin Alexander]

Since running an Amber DRPG game, it has become hard to replace as the most intense and invested RPG experience I, or the players, have had.

The key question is what you mean by "most intense" and "invested".

I'd also be curious what other systems you've tried with this same group without achieving the same success.

Right now the goal you're trying to achieve is kind of vague to us out here in cyberspace, but with some more specificity we can probably figure out the exact mechanical and meta-mechanical aspects of Amber that clicked for you and yours.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

I can do that with a decent machete.

Fucking bullshit you can.
I've been an active full-contact martial artist for 27 years, and I've trained my share of blade combat styles.

You can't fell a full-grown or even half-grown tree with one fucking swing of a machete. If you claim you can, I laugh into your face. No kidding.

[daniel_ream]

How about a heavy falchion? Or a woodsman's axe?

Or a light chainsaw, which I can and have wielded (ill-advisedly) one-handed?

I admit to not having twenty-seven years of full contact martial arts training, and so I am unaware of any combat styles that teach how to cut down trees, as opposed to wounding human beings.

My point was simply that being able to cut down a three-inch sapling in a single swipe does not equate to demigod status.  Better than human?  Damn right.  But this whole Amberites-as-gods thing is an invention of the game.  It's not in the source fiction.

[Panjumanju]

I'd also be curious what other systems you've tried with this same group without achieving the same success.

With the same group we have played Dungeons & Dragons 2nd/3/3.5/Pathfinder, Mutants and Masterminds, Wearwolf, Changeling: The Lost, FASA Star Trek, Fate, Marvel Superheroes FASERIP, Shadowrun, and several home-brew player-designed systems.

We have been playing weekly for three years, loosly for upwards of eight. The average player in the group has about 10 years of Roleplaying experience. We actually run two groups in the same space (kitchen-livingroom distance) and reshuffle players every couple of months. I ran this game for 18 sessions with 7 players.

The key question is what you mean by "most intense" and "invested".

The differences between the Ambergame and other RPGs I've run is this:
* Attendance was perfect over the 18 session game we played, further, people arrived early so they could start engaging other players about the game.
* There was nearly no out-of-game talk during the sessions. Players were much more interested in furthering the game. When I left the room to discuss private events with one player without the others knowing, in game conversation continued.
* I was bombarded with emails during the week with player's questions and scheeming about what they'd like to do next.

I found this an unusual level of investment. Strong emotional reactions and dedication to one's character crop up in any game, but were much more pronounced in this one.

What I would like to emulate in future RPGs is this sense of investment. I don't think the story I was running was mind-blowing, I don't think my direction was in any way signifigantly better than it was in the past, but I do think there was *something* about the structure of Amber as a system brought out the best in my players.

//Panjumanju

[Norbert G. Matausch]

How about a heavy falchion? Or a woodsman's axe?

Or a light chainsaw, which I can and have wielded (ill-advisedly) one-handed?

Benedict used a sword in that scene, if I'm not mistaken

I admit to not having twenty-seven years of full contact martial arts training, and so I am unaware of any combat styles that teach how to cut down trees, as opposed to wounding human beings.

Funny man, you.
From time to time, it's very useful to test the edge holding ability of blades. Tree trunks are among the traditional tools for doing exectly that.

My point was simply that being able to cut down a three-inch sapling in a single swipe does not equate to demigod status.  

Does the book say it was 3-inch saplings that Benedict cut down?
Off the cuff, I'd say it was trees, not saplings.

Better than human?  Damn right.  But this whole Amberites-as-gods thing is an invention of the game.  It's not in the source fiction.

I agree with you on this. But no mortal could do what they do in the books, bot by a long shot.

[finarvyn]

The problem I run into is this: how to adapt the success of Amber to tackle a non-Amber story, without sacrificing its advantages? I can't imagine trying to adapt the system to deal with anything less than ubermen.

Fundamentally, I think that the ADRP rules system works best with characters who are better than their surroundings. This could be something like Conan, John Carter of Mars, Pirates of the Caribbean, James Bond or other settings where the heroes can do cinematic things. I don't think they have to be supermen and/or indestructable, but they should have a decent chance of success becasue the ADRP glosses over many of the picky details of the character in order to focus on the action.

[Norbert G. Matausch]

We played cyberpunk, Shadowrun and Hong Kong movie action for years, using a customized ADRP system. Worked perfectly.

[Panjumanju]

Fundamentally, I think that the ADRP rules system works best with characters who are better than their surroundings.

That's a very good point, and a very practical solution. Thank you.

//Panjumanju

[daniel_ream]

Fundamentally, I think that the ADRP rules system works best with characters who are better than their surroundings.

I'm going to point out again that it's not that the characters are demigods; it's that the characters primarily care about their relationships with each other that drives emotional investment.  The setting creates a milieu where there is nothing else to care about, but that's a sufficient, not necessary condition.  You could get the same result from a bog-standard feudal Europe setting.  George R. R. Martin did.