[Amber] Attribute Relativism

[daniel_ream]

I'm not sure that Zelazny was consistent when he wrote the Amber books [...] In the case of Strength, we know that an Amberite can roughly lift half a car but it is really stretching the limits of what he can do. For Endurance I seem to recall Corwin having a swordfight for several days before he quit to go on a date. For Warfare we could look at the number of bad guys fought at a time to get a sense for what Amberites can do. And so on.

I am absolutely certain Zelazny wasn't consistent.  It's times like this I wish the ADRPG-L mailing list archives still existed, so I could just point you to the last million times this discussion was fruitlessly hashed out.

If you go look up the actual text of those examples in the Chronicles, you'll discover that not only do they not say quite what you've implied here, they're very vague on exactly what they do say.  Zelazny was a very spare writer who - deliberately, I believe - avoided saying anything concrete about the real capabilities of his characters in the CoA.  That's on top of the fact that both Chronicles are demonstrably Unreliable Narrator, and Corwin tells you right up front he's lying to you a significant portion of the time.

I ran ADRPG campaigns for two years in university and never had much of a problem with people needing hard and fast rules for what their character could do.  It's not germane to the source fiction, and it's not germane to the RPG either, as long as you remember the "Everything is either an Attribute comparison or a foregone conclusion" rule.

[RTrimmer]

If it's always a foregone conclusion then it doesn't matter if my character leaps from a fourth story window (to escape a foe with higher Warfare, let's say) or the 160th floor of the Burj Khalifa. Whether it's a wooden door he kicks open or a bank vault door. Whether he catches softballs or bullets, so long as they're thrown/fired by un-ranked mooks. Etc.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just not to my taste.

snip

I ran ADRPG campaigns for two years in university and never had much of a problem with people needing hard and fast rules for what their character could do.  It's not germane to the source fiction, and it's not germane to the RPG either, as long as you remember the "Everything is either an Attribute comparison or a foregone conclusion" rule.

[daniel_ream]

If it's always a foregone conclusion then it doesn't matter if my character leaps from a fourth story window (to escape a foe with higher Warfare, let's say) or the 160th floor of the Burj Khalifa. Whether it's a wooden door he kicks open or a bank vault door. Whether he catches softballs or bullets, so long as they're thrown/fired by un-ranked mooks. Etc.

Both Chronicles largely avoid modern era settings, so this isn't a terribly applicable point you're making.  But the Scions of Amber routinely do the fantasy equivalent of these things.

[warp9]

Both Chronicles largely avoid modern era settings, so this isn't a terribly applicable point you're making.  But the Scions of Amber routinely do the fantasy equivalent of these things.

I don't think they ever did anything like the fantasy equivalent of jumping off a sky-scraper or catching bullets.

[RTrimmer]

Not in Zelazny.
Oberon's get are strong as bears, recover like movie action heroes, fight at best little better than Miyamoto Musashi, use unremarkable tactics and have mental powers in the Star Trek Vulcan range.

Both Chronicles largely avoid modern era settings, so this isn't a terribly applicable point you're making.  But the Scions of Amber routinely do the fantasy equivalent of these things.

[daniel_ream]

Not in Zelazny.

Really?

Oberon's get are strong as bears

Random and Corwin carried a 1970's era Mercedes out of a ditch in something less than 1G.  And they're midrange.  Corwin was terrified of Gerard.

recover like movie action heroes

I think I missed the part where Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bruce Willis regrew their eyes after having them burned out of their head.

fight at best little better than Miyamoto Musashi

Completely unsupported.  (And again, one of the longest running bones of contention on the old ADRPG-L).  You never see the Scions fight against anyone who's skill is comparable to any historical person.  They mostly fight with each other.

use unremarkable tactics and have mental powers in the Star Trek Vulcan range.

Except for all the sorcery.  And the Trumps.  And Brand.

I do miss the old ADRPG-L; at least there when people argued about the Chronicles there was a high level of confidence that they'd actually read them.

[RTrimmer]

They lift a car that started off as a '70s Mercedes, but was shifted -- the steering wheel changes shape -- several times by Random. I doubt Random kept with the 2-ton weight of a 300SEL for the dirt roads of Arden. Even if he did, the human world record squat is 1260 lbs. Add grizzly strength. Corwin is a medium sized griz, Gerard is a huge one; hell yes he's scared.

Eyes, no. Suddenly ignoring crippling back injuries and the like, yes. And not after years of healing either. Action hero regeneration takes place between scenes or at dramatic moments.

Re: comparable to Musashi. Look at the fight between Corwin, Random and Florimel's dogs against Flora's home invaders. Look at Corwin fencing Ganelon's soldier in GoA; sure Corwin was not up to snuff, but he'd been capable of carrying a very big man fifteen miles, running most of it. Look at Corwin taken down by numbers at the top of the Stair, despite being strong as a bear.

Sorcery doesn't amount to much in the first series.
Second series sorcery and Logrus render the Amberite victories flatly impossible unless some quiet, unmentioned Pattern tricks constantly render them both unusable around Amberites and their armies.
 
Brand. What does Brand use against Corwin? A crossbow. He can't keep Martin in a Trump contact after wounding him very badly, and can't force another contact. He's no Professor Xavier.

Corwin was unsurprised when Ganelon used a Trump to contact him; he evidently he thought massive mental power was not necessary to use them. (Granted, making them is a fine trick.)

Amberite strength and Endurance are clearly superhuman, particularly Endurance, but not freaking unlimited. Psyche and Warfare, not so much. Powerful human sorcerers are mentioned, Sharu Garrul is probably one of them. Hell, Victor Melman successfully lays an enchantment on Merlin, and Julia Barnes puts up a pretty good sorcerous fight too.

Really?



Random and Corwin carried a 1970's era Mercedes out of a ditch in something less than 1G.  And they're midrange.  Corwin was terrified of Gerard.



I think I missed the part where Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bruce Willis regrew their eyes after having them burned out of their head.

fight at best little better than Miyamoto Musashi

Completely unsupported.  (And again, one of the longest running bones of contention on the old ADRPG-L).  You never see the Scions fight against anyone who's skill is comparable to any historical person.  They mostly fight with each other.



Except for all the sorcery.  And the Trumps.  And Brand.

I do miss the old ADRPG-L; at least there when people argued about the Chronicles there was a high level of confidence that they'd actually read them.

[warp9]

Really?



Random and Corwin carried a 1970's era Mercedes out of a ditch in something less than 1G.  And they're midrange.  Corwin was terrified of Gerard.



I think I missed the part where Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bruce Willis regrew their eyes after having them burned out of their head.

This line of conversation sort of makes the point for the need of some kind of more defined standards. Somebody who comes into a game thinking that his Amberite is highly super-human, may be in for a rude shock when he discovers that his character is no stronger than a bear.

There might still be disagreements, but at least it will not be a surprise right in the middle of the game.

[RTrimmer]

I make sure of that when I'm GMing. Players are told their PCs are comparable to Tarzan, Batman, the Black Widow, Captain America and the like. Not Spider-Man, Wonder Woman or the Hulk. Gandalf-level magic and a bit higher.

Setting the dials on the Attribute Relativism (and related magical power scale) is, I think, one of the main things you can do to emulate the feel of the novels.

[RPGPundit]

Musashi would not have been able to fight thousands of ordinary troops while moving up stairs.

[Panjumanju]

Musashi would not have been able to fight thousands of ordinary troops while moving up stairs.

Well...not to complicate matters, but, Musashi was a fellow who was able, reportedly, to cut down a sparrow in flight. He may be able to cut down 1000 warriors, if - as with Corwin's circumstance, they all conveniently lined up single-file.

//Panjumanju

[RTrimmer]

Given superhuman strength and endurance, good armor and an unbreakable sword, he could.

Musashi would not have been able to fight thousands of ordinary troops while moving up stairs.

[warp9]

Musashi would not have been able to fight thousands of ordinary troops while moving up stairs.

How do you get that number?

It was their soldiers that got them most of the way of the stairs. In Nine Princes of Amber, Corwin says : "I'd say we were three-quarters of the way there when Bleys' turn finally came." Bleys did most of that last quarter distance, but Corwin made it a little ways too. Bleys certainly took on quite a few men, the book makes that point pretty clear, but I don't know how you can say for sure that it was "thousands."

[finarvyn]

We'll never be able to answer this question for certain, because there are two schools of thought here:

(1) Corwin is giving us a realistic view of Amber, and cites specific examples that give us clues as to what Amberites can do.

(2) Corwin exaggerates and/or lies about his accomplishments and therefore examples given in the book are unreliable.

Sadly, as the stories are all written as "first person protagonist" we'll never know what Zelazny intended.

We can argue that Merlin might not be as biased as his father, and Merlin is supposed to have near Olympic caliber abilities, but then the whole issue of Merlin's bloodline comes into play and disrupts things again.

(1) Merlin is of mixed Amber and Chaos blood. In the game Chaos is inferior to Amber, so Amber is better than Olympic athlete caliber. (Which puts Amber better than the human range.)

(2) Merlin and those of Chaos derive from a commom ancestory and Amber isn't any better than Chaos, so Amber/Chaos level is somewhere around Olympic caliber. (Which makes it still in the human spectrum.)

Again, a pointless argument as we'll never know what Zelazny intended.

[RTrimmer]

I disagree.

First, if we are talking about emulating the books then Corwin's and Merlin's narratives (and Luke's and Frakir's) are all we have to work with.

Second, say Corwin is lying his ass off to Merlin. Merlin was raised in Chaos, knows Chaosian capabilities and knows his own. Merlin has just observed a big battle in which Amberites fought, giving him a fair idea of their capabilities. For Corwin to lie about those things would be idiotic -- and Corwin has centuries of experience in telling and evaluating lies. Lie about his own motivations? Sure. About things that happened where there are no other surviving witnesses, or none Merlin will ever talk to? Sure.

We'll never be able to answer this question for certain, because there are two schools of thought here:

(1) Corwin is giving us a realistic view of Amber, and cites specific examples that give us clues as to what Amberites can do.

(2) Corwin exaggerates and/or lies about his accomplishments and therefore examples given in the book are unreliable.

Sadly, as the stories are all written as "first person protagonist" we'll never know what Zelazny intended.

We can argue that Merlin might not be as biased as his father, and Merlin is supposed to have near Olympic caliber abilities, but then the whole issue of Merlin's bloodline comes into play and disrupts things again.

(1) Merlin is of mixed Amber and Chaos blood. In the game Chaos is inferior to Amber, so Amber is better than Olympic athlete caliber. (Which puts Amber better than the human range.)

(2) Merlin and those of Chaos derive from a commom ancestory and Amber isn't any better than Chaos, so Amber/Chaos level is somewhere around Olympic caliber. (Which makes it still in the human spectrum.)

Again, a pointless argument as we'll never know what Zelazny intended.