Alternate Sorcery System (inspired by Promised Sands)

[Malleus Aforethought]

The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

You're talking about Erick's sorcery system from the Amber rulebook?  What is the "old Spell Design Language" you're referencing?  I did a Google search for it, but nothing useful came up.  I'm interested in researching it a bit if you can give me some pointers on where to look.

[RPGPundit]

The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.

What was this one?

RPGPundit

[Malleus Aforethought]

Probably won't fit, but here goes. The post is over 20 years old.

From rmr@inferno (Robert Reimann) Sun Jul  9 22:00:23 1989
From: rmr@inferno.wpd.sgi.com (Robert Reimann)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp
Subject: Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat System (SDL) Update
Message-ID: <37616@sgi.SGI.COM>
Date: 8 Jul 89 19:25:04 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 1458
Keywords: Revised, now includes illusions


Here is the latest draft of the Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat System,
the first (to my knowledge) system to make use of a comprehensive
magical language to tie together all aspects of magic in a gaming
environment.  Since my last posting of the system, I have made minor
syntax changes, added an operator (thanx to Brad Knowles), added a
new class of mages, and integrated demonology and illusionism into
the system.  Still coming are the much sought-after biological and
psychic set of effects.

If anyone has been using the system, I'd love any feedback you may
have.

            Robert.
            rmr@sgi.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Preface
-------

Presented here is the first draft of the Mage-to-Mage Magical Combat
System and Spell Description Language, that hopefully addresses the issues
raised in recent discussions of spell programming languages and mage-to-mage
combat, while remaining more general than previous offerings of this type.

Some spell construction systems attempt to provide all the functionality
of AD&D spells by enumerating hundreds of specialized primitives.
The high number of primitives present in the some systems
reflects AD&D's lack of a distinction between *effects*, the actual
physical, biological, or psychic manifestations of magical forces,
and *operators* which act to shape those forces into useful configurations.
Note that what most systems call "effects" are actually combinations
of effects and operators, as I've defined them above.

AD&D-style spells do not require much distinction between effects and
operators-- they seem to work better without it-- but an object-oriented,
constructive approach really needs to distinguish between objects (effects)
and predicates (operators) to be successful and at the same time remain simple.

The system presented here consists of 32 physical effects (an equal numbers
of biological and psychic effects are currently being developed) and 26
operators.  The effects presented here are part of a rationale for magic
that is built into the world; you are welcome to change them to better
fit your needs, but they were chosen with consistency in mind.  The operators
are the real heart of the system, you should modify them only with great care.
Too many non-general operators will spoil this system.

The Mage-to-Mage Spell Description Language (SDL) uses a straightforward
left-to-right, top-to-bottom, multi-line syntax. For the most part, each
line of spell description represents one spell (mana) point worth of
magical effect.  Mage-to-Mage uses a spell point system to determine the
spell cost; there is no distinction of "spell levels"; spells may be designed
with arbitrary complexity, the limiting factor is the number of spell points a
mage has available to expend casting it.  Spell points are assigned on the
basis of mage level, intelligence, and wisdom.

Mage-to-Mage also provides a painless and logical way of producing
magical items, while at the same time keeping their power limited
to reasonable levels.  Demonology illusion, necromancy, alchemy, and magical
medicine/healing can all be implemented within the same framework
(some of these are still under development).

Lastly, Mage-to-Mage has been designed to work within any combat system
that makes use of melee rounds as units of combat action.  

Enjoy, and feel free to write/post comments or suggestions.






          MAGE-TO-MAGE Magical Combat System
            and Spell Description Language

            Version 0.75

           Copyright 1989 Robert M. Reimann
             All rights reserved.


I.  The Nature of Magic and Spellcasting

"Magic" itself is not an energy source in any true sense.  It is rather an
ability of some entities to alter the fabric of reality in a way that
changes the "natural" balance of "elemental forces" in a localized area
and channel it in a useful fashion.  This ability is inate to some
creatures, but others (humans among them) must be trained.

"Spell" is the name given to the psycho-physical manipulations a mage or
magical creature must perform to produce a magical effect.  Spellcasting
can, therefore be thought of as a psionic skill, with an important exception.
Once a spell is cast, it's semi-physical nature gives it a certain "life
of it's own"; it does not *need* to be constantly maintained after it
has been cast, although it *may* be altered once it has been cast, by
the original caster, or by another mage of sufficient power.
The existence of any spell is, however, intimately bound to the existence
of the casting entity; if the caster is killed, the spell will cease
*unless* spell "ownership" has been transfered to another casting
entity before the original caster dies.  

Spells themselves cannot be written down, but "recipes" for spells
may be recorded using the spell description language described below.
Spell descriptions have no magical power themselves, they must be
interpreted by a spell caster.  Of course, true, active spells may
be bound to scraps of paper, thus filling the role of AD&D-style
magical scrolls.

As with any skill, magical ability improves with practice.  As mages
gain spell casting experience, the number of spells a mage can cast
and/or the complexity of his spells will increase.  Spell casting is an
exhaustive effort requiring intense powers of will.  Spell points are
an arbitrary method of measuring a spell's complexity.  A mage is, in
a sense, "rated for" a certain number of spell points per day, based on
his experience (level), and his mental prowess.  

He can't exceed this rating, not because he would do himself harm, but rather,
because it is simply beyond his current level of capability.  As in AD&D,
an appropriate amount of rest will restore a mage's spell point "rating" to
full.

Spells need not be written or memorized, they may be cast "on the fly".
In fact, this is quite common in magical combat.  Spells are, in general,
non-permanent for reasons outlined above.

III.  Elemental Forces, Matter, and Effects

The structure of all matter is created by the flow of elemental forces through
the material plane.  Were there no flow of these energies, the material plane
would consist of formless chaos.  The world in which magic exists is entirely
shaped by an intricate flow of elemental energies that yields land, oceans, air,
living things, etc.  All living things possess the ability to alter the flow of
elemental forces to a certain degree by physically interacting with them.
Sentient beings further posess the ability to alter the flow of these forces,
and hence the world around them, purely by using their mind, i.e., by magic.

There are four primary elemental forces, each residing on a separate plane:

EARTH
AIR
FIRE
WATER

However, each of these planes overlaps, to a certain extent, the other three
planes, yielding a total of 16 subplanes.

Earthy Earth      Airy Air   Fiery Fire   Watery Water
Airy Earth      Earthy Air   Earthy Fire   Earthy Water
Fiery Earth      Fiery Air   Airy Fire   Airy Water
Watery Earth      Watery Air   Watery Fire   Fiery Water

Lastly, there are two states for each of these 16 forces, a high energy
state and a low energy state. These two states are called "Light" and
"Dark" respectively.  Each of the 16 permuted forces above can be
manipulated in either the Light or Dark form, yielding a total of 32
different elemental flows.  Each type of flow generates a unique set
of EFFECTs.

There are three manifestations of an effect; physical, biological, and psychic.
Each manifestation is separate and independent of the other two.  Physical
effects are primarily for combat.  Biological effects can be used to
cure and cause illnesses, and to bestow qualities of living creatures
on inanimate objects.  Psychic effects can be used to cure and cause
mental disorders, to bestow qualities of sentient creatures on
non-sentient things, and to deal with spirits, which have no physical
characteristics.  Biological and psychic effects are more complex,
and may not be used until the mage has gained higher levels:

Level      Manifestations Usable
-----      ---------------------

1+      Physical
5+      Physical, Biological
9+      Physical, Biological, Psychic

Currently, the system covers only physical effects; biological and psychic
effects will be added in future versions.

One final characteristic of some importance is that dissimilar effects
may not occupy the same physical space in the Material Plane.  Thus,
when two different effect types come together, one must give way.  This
quality can be used to a mage's defensive advantage.  If he casts a barrier
of dissimilar effect in the path of another, oncoming force, and his force
is as potent or more so than the oncoming force, it will be blocked.
Note that this only works for effects that are manifested in the same way;
e.g., a physical effect will not block a psychic effect, for instance.


III.  Magical Training and Aptitude

Unlike AD&D, this system offers mages the opportunity to specialize in
areas of expertise, giving them greater control over more limited resources.

Initial training of a mage lasts a maximum of 12 years.  In that time, the
mage may divide his studies among one or more elemental forces, such as
Fiery Air.

Each force studied includes both Light and Dark effects, as well as all
three manifestations (physical, biological, psychic).  When a mage learns
a force, he generally learns both the Light and Dark versions (exception:
Elemental Mages, below).

The following table shows how studies may be divided, how much time they
take, and what abilities each term of study confers on the mage.


Study Time   Skill Class   Potency     Range      Know/Use   Resist
----------   -----------   -------     -----      --------   ------
12 years   Elemental*   d8/lev     80'+8'/lev   40%+4%/lev      20%+2%/lev
10 years   Singular**   d12/lev     120'+12'/lev   60%+6%/lev   30%+3%/lev
 6 years   Major      d8/lev     80'+8'/lev   40%+4%/lev   20%+2%/lev
 4 years   Minor      d6/lev     60'+6'/lev   30%+3%/lev   15%+2%/lev
 2 years   Minimal    d4/lev     40'+4'/lev   20%+2%/lev   10%+1%/lev

* Elemental Mages learn all four Light or Dark effects (not both) of an element;
  thus a Mage of Light Air would learn Light Airy Air, Light Watery Air,
  Light Fiery Air, and Light Earthy Air.

** Singular Mages may not learn any other force beyond their singular
   specialty; their minds are too "coloured" by their magic to permit
   learning a new kind.

So, Medwyn the Mage could spend his 12 years of study becoming an
Elemental Mage of Light Water or a Singular Mage in Fiery Air, or
he could spend 6 getting a Major in Fiery Air, and 6 more getting
another Major in, say, Earthy Water.

Or he could get two Minors and and two Minimals, etc.

Spending more time learning a particular force allows the mage to use
it more effectively; a singular mage gets d12 per level damage from his
effects, twice the damage of a mage with a similar Minor.  Similarly, his
casting range is larger, his ability to recognize (Know) magic of his
specialty and make use of it (Use) is better as well.  Finally, he is
also able to better Resist magic of the type in which he received the
training.

Spell points are assigned to Mages according to the following formula:

      Spell Points = (INT+WILL)*level/4

This is the same for all mages regardless of training.  All fractional
points should be rounded up.

As a mage casts spells, his spell points are depleted.  They are regained
with sleep; 1/10 of a mage's total points are replenished per hour of rest.
There is one important exception to this rule: if a spell is still operating,
the spell points used to create it *cannot* be replenished until the spell
has been stopped.  Once it has stopped, the points may be replenished as
described above.  This effectively limits the number of semi-permanent spells
that a mage is able to cast.

IV. Physical Effects

The following is a complete list of physical effect.

EARTH

LEE:  Crystal/Glass   DEE:  Stone
LAE:  Sand      DAE:  Dust
LWE:  Loam      DWE:  Mud/Quicksand
LFE:  Lava      DFE:  Metal


WATER

LWW:  Water      DWW:  Ice
LAW:  Foam      DAW:  Erosion
LEW:  Glue      DEW:  Liquid [Poison]
LFW:  Steam      DFW:  Oil


FIRE

LFF:  Fire      DFF:  Shadow Fire [Cold]
LAF:  Plasma      DAF:  Ash
LEF:  Heat      DEF:  Alkali
LWF:  Electricity   DWF:  Acid


AIR

LAA:  Air/Wind         DFF:  Shadow/Darkness
LWA:  Ambient Light      DWA:  Fog/Cloud/Mist
LEA:  Illusion         DEA:  Gas [Poison]
LFA:  Radiant Light      DFA:  Smoke


V.  Operators

Operators are the core of the Mage-to-Mage SDL, providing the syntax
for spell description and execution.  This section gives a summary of all
SDL operators. followed by complete descriptions of the syntax and semantics
of each operator.  Examples are included.

V.1  Operator Summary

Basic (Effect) Operators
------------------------
create      create a new effect
destroy      destroy a previously created effect
move         move an effect to a new location
rotate      rotate an effect around any axis
scale         resize a previously created effect
shape         form an effect into a desired shape


Path (Shape) Operators
----------------------

fill         fill a closed polygonal (2D) area
lineto         extrude an effect along a given line
surface      mold an effect along a given surface
volume      form an effect to fit a specified volume


Flow Operators
--------------

halt         stop a spell
if...then...else   conditional determined by input events
repeat...until   loop until event
wait until      pause spell until event


Event Operators
---------------

and                |
or                | boolean operators for combining events
not                |
interrupted             signals a spell has been interrupted

[Malleus Aforethought]

Not my work. Just something I seem to have managed to preserve. Obviously, not all is applicable to Amber, but I wanted to include it in it's entirety out of respect for the author's copyrights. Since he originally posted it to the Internet (r.g.frp.dnd, I suspect), I don't think he would mind since it's reposted intact, except for formatting.

[RPGPundit]

Uh huh. Well, first, thank you very much for posting that bit of internet history. That's pretty awesome in and of itself.
Second, I do have to say that the system described is too complex for my liking, but at the same time I do think I could see Merlin using such a thing (though not other amberites), what with his being an "80s computer guy" and all.

RPGPundit

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

What we would need to do is have someone collect absolutely every reference to magic/sorcery from the Books, and list them all out, so we could definitively answer "what do we KNOW about sorcery"?

RPGPundit

I just finished reading the Merlin Chronicles and I've compiled the list.

It's about 12 pages of citations, ranging from the odd throwaway line like, "The color was a little off, but I suddenly recalled a spell which altered it," to long passages describing Merlin's sorcerous duel against Mask, and lessons from Suhuy.  I feel it's too much to post, so if anyone would like it, you could send me your email in a private post and I'll send it to you.

I thought about posting a summary of my findings, but then I realized that the point of this was to go right to the primary source and then make your own guesses about what Zelazny meant.  To summarize things would just be giving you my interpretation.

Passages are noted by page number from The Great Book of Amber.  If you don't have that edition, I also group them by Book and Chapter which will help hunting down the passages if you want to see them in greater context.

A couple times Merlin mentions that Amber sorcery is different from Chaos sorcery, but he never says in what way.

Oh, there's also notes in there about Trump and the Hall of Mirrors, and other little tidbits I had forgotten about and wanted to remember.

[RPGPundit]

I just finished reading the Merlin Chronicles and I've compiled the list.

It's about 12 pages of citations, ranging from the odd throwaway line like, "The color was a little off, but I suddenly recalled a spell which altered it," to long passages describing Merlin's sorcerous duel against Mask, and lessons from Suhuy.  I feel it's too much to post, so if anyone would like it, you could send me your email in a private post and I'll send it to you.

I thought about posting a summary of my findings, but then I realized that the point of this was to go right to the primary source and then make your own guesses about what Zelazny meant.  To summarize things would just be giving you my interpretation.

Passages are noted by page number from The Great Book of Amber.  If you don't have that edition, I also group them by Book and Chapter which will help hunting down the passages if you want to see them in greater context.

A couple times Merlin mentions that Amber sorcery is different from Chaos sorcery, but he never says in what way.

Oh, there's also notes in there about Trump and the Hall of Mirrors, and other little tidbits I had forgotten about and wanted to remember.

Thank you for completing this significant task!

A couple of questions/comments: first, did you also look at the corwin books? Is there nothing there that makes reference to magic?

Second, I think you could still feel free to post your personal conclusions, considering that everyone else will pretty well be trying to form their own conclusions anyways.

RPGPundit

[AshenHaze]

I would be very interested in seeing this list.

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

Did you also look at the corwin books? Is there nothing there that makes reference to magic?
RPGPundit

I didn't go back to the Corwin books for this pass.  Next time I do read them, I'll definitely keep my eye out for those passages as well.

One thing that struck me in particular once I finished the Merlin books is that there's only one occurrence of the word "linchpin" in the whole thing (in that same passage quoted in the ADRP rulebook), though there are references to Merlin speaking the omitted word or words to activate spells in other places in the books.  It's understood that these words he's speaking are the linchpins he talked about that one time, but he never says what these words signify specifically.  There's not much in the source material that indicates these linchpins are variables in the spell to be determined upon its casting (as the ADRP book would have us imagine it).

There's this one line, "I had mine figured to where it should work if my main guesses were correct," that seems to be the only indication that maybe he's guessing about certain factors that may come into play when the spell goes off (like magic of shadow, target, ect), but in the book he's not talking about linchpins, yet, he's talking about the length of the spell he just created.

When talking about how many linchpins he'll need, he says, "Studying [the spell], I saw that three linchpins would probably hold it, though four would be better."  So I'm wondering what Merlin means by "hold it," and how does four linchpins make a better hold than three, or two, or one (many of Merlin's spells only have one activation word: sleep, invisibility, gust of wind, curtain of Chaos, summon flowers, summon manure -- all used in his fight against Mask)?

This is probably the element that makes me the most unsatisfied with the sorcery rules as written.  If I could figure out a good mechanic for determining the number of linchpins needed for a spell, I think I'd be well on my way to building a sorcery system that makes more sense to me.

[RPGPundit]

And what spell was it again, that needed 3 or 4 linchpins?

RPGPundit

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

And what spell was it again, that needed 3 or 4 linchpins?

RPGPundit

It was the spell Merlin designed to expel a possessing entity.  He made it to use on his "guardian spirit" who was going around inhabiting other people's bodies in an effort to protect him.  At this point Merlin didn't know the whole story yet, so he wasn't really sure she was on the level, so he created this spell to get rid of her in case she showed up and did something he didn't want done.

He ended up using the spell on Coral while they were in some caves on Kolvir during a tour of Amber city with which he was indulging her.  Coral had apparently been acting suspiciously, but upon casting the spell, Coral was unaffected (because she wasn't possessed), and instead the spell knocked out a couple nearby zombies that Jurt had brought up there to attack Merlin with.

[RPGPundit]

Its an interesting question, because the use of 3 or 4 linchpins might imply that this was in some way a particularly complicated spell to craft, which would tell us a bit about how magic works in Amber.

RPGPundit

[Malleus Aforethought]

So I've been thinking about magic lately. Been rereading the two series and an interesting idea has surfaced. My interpretation is that there is a flux of magic that flows from one pole of the universe to the other. At the Chaos end of things the flux is very easy to sense and manipulate, to the point where it's very common for beings born at that end of the universe to be able to directly manipulate the raw energy even without training (Merlin alludes to sorcerers manipulating raw energy, but that it's very taxing and inefficient). Sorcery is the applied discipline of manipulating the flux. At the other end of the pole, the flux becomes fore static, though no less powerful. However, rather than being free energy readily available (much like a gas, the available flux tends to fill an area), the flux tends to manifest in or as fixed objects, whether as magical places, items, or creatures.

As I mulled this over, I came to the realization that there is no direct evidence that any true sorcerer (whether explicitly identified or alluded to) learned their Sorcery outside the Courts or its environs: Merlin (native), Dara (native), Mandor (native), Brand (Chaos ally), Fiona (Chaos ally),  Luke (Brand), Jasra (Dara's handmaiden/Sharu's apprentice), Melman (Luke/Jasra pawn), Julia (Shadow/Melman apprentice), or Sharu Garrul (Shadow).

On the other hand, the Amberites are rife with what are artifacts or creatures according to the DRPG book: Julian (Morgenstern, storm hounds, falcons), Corwin (Grayswandir), Brand (Werewindle), Bleys (his own Pattern sword), Benedict (tiger-striped horse), and Oberon (silver hand from Tir-na Nog'th, blood bird). This made me wonder if what we weren't looking at was a continuum of magic from Sorcery at the Courts to Conjuration at Amber. The Amberites as beings born at one pole would embody that power in themselves, meaning their blood would be a potent source of power and a possible source of their Conjured artifacts and creatures. It would explain why Melman was so keen on sacrificing Merlin to gain his power (conceptually sound in magical frames of reference). Also works with the liquid vs. fire blood of various beings in the Merlin books.

The only problem is it wrecks my assumption of an economy in the Courts based on the amount of Conjuration a House controls. Might be able to convert it to Compelling though, since I could still use demons as a form of currency.

[Evermasterx]

So I've been thinking about magic lately. Been rereading the two series and an interesting idea has surfaced. My interpretation is that there is a flux of magic that flows from one pole of the universe to the other. At the Chaos end of things the flux is very easy to sense and manipulate, to the point where it's very common for beings born at that end of the universe to be able to directly manipulate the raw energy even without training (Merlin alludes to sorcerers manipulating raw energy, but that it's very taxing and inefficient). Sorcery is the applied discipline of manipulating the flux. At the other end of the pole, the flux becomes fore static, though no less powerful. However, rather than being free energy readily available (much like a gas, the available flux tends to fill an area), the flux tends to manifest in or as fixed objects, whether as magical places, items, or creatures.

As I mulled this over, I came to the realization that there is no direct evidence that any true sorcerer (whether explicitly identified or alluded to) learned their Sorcery outside the Courts or its environs: Merlin (native), Dara (native), Mandor (native), Brand (Chaos ally), Fiona (Chaos ally),  Luke (Brand), Jasra (Dara's handmaiden/Sharu's apprentice), Melman (Luke/Jasra pawn), Julia (Shadow/Melman apprentice), or Sharu Garrul (Shadow).

On the other hand, the Amberites are rife with what are artifacts or creatures according to the DRPG book: Julian (Morgenstern, storm hounds, falcons), Corwin (Grayswandir), Brand (Werewindle), Bleys (his own Pattern sword), Benedict (tiger-striped horse), and Oberon (silver hand from Tir-na Nog'th, blood bird). This made me wonder if what we weren't looking at was a continuum of magic from Sorcery at the Courts to Conjuration at Amber. The Amberites as beings born at one pole would embody that power in themselves, meaning their blood would be a potent source of power and a possible source of their Conjured artifacts and creatures. It would explain why Melman was so keen on sacrificing Merlin to gain his power (conceptually sound in magical frames of reference). Also works with the liquid vs. fire blood of various beings in the Merlin books.

The only problem is it wrecks my assumption of an economy in the Courts based on the amount of Conjuration a House controls. Might be able to convert it to Compelling though, since I could still use demons as a form of currency.

What you say is interesting.
I would say that at the Courts, where every thing is costantly changing, the flux is very high. This means that for casting spells you need to move the stuff that power magic, just like you need a charged current to produce a magnetic field: a static charge is useless.
So at the Courts is easy to find the flux you need, but without training you had to concentrate a lot, because the flux change in time in a random way and you have to pay attention...
On the other hand, at Amber the flux must be created/found, and you need training to do this instead.