Alternate Sorcery System (inspired by Promised Sands)

[Xenon]

thought. the Jewel of judgment as a high-order power-source. pattern/logrus as medium-power, broken pattern as low power. and then you have shadow sources. But the spikards are super-strong, based on the pre-pattern shadow power sources.

could be that pattern actually reduced the amount of shadow-power when it came into existence. in part because of how the JoJ was used. maybe all that stolen power is now only availible from the Jewel, or the spikards- both of which have major problems for the user. logical conclusion, destruction of pattern(s) would increase magic sources in shadow.

trump as a possible power source? you would only get the source depicted in the trump, but that could be a significant power boost by removing the transport problem, making a nice synergy between magic and trump. heck, ghostwheel could probably do a lot to move power around, if he needed to.

i could actually see shadow sources being MORE powerful than logrus or pattern, but more specialized in use and stuck in one spot. so if you can access them you have an edge, and this is why shadow-sorcerers are so bloody dangerous. a prince walking shadow has access to less power on the spur of the moment in general.

we should also get some 'blood sacrifice' power source. kill an animal, cut yourself, or kill a person. inconvenient and messy, but it works.

i guess the short list would then be Constructs, Powers, Shadow, and Blood. probably should be something else, of the older/forgotten variety as well- the shroudling's mirror realm being a good example.

[RPGPundit]

Yeah, I got that. I suppose my old line "people wouldn't abuse those rules because they want to play a nice game" won't be of use. Emulation shouldn't be the GM's or rulebook's problem only.

Well, I think certain players wouldn't be too keen to accept that; they'd say "it doesn't make sense that amberites WOULDN'T do this", and they'd have a good point at that; if you want the game to emulate the setting, then you need to make sure the rules take these kinds of things into account.   There are moments where you can say "no, that's just not in the spirit of the rules", but with something as big as one of the most significant power systems, I don't think that's a good excuse, its just a cop-out for failing to design a magic system that is sufficiently emulative.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

thought. the Jewel of judgment as a high-order power-source. pattern/logrus as medium-power, broken pattern as low power. and then you have shadow sources. But the spikards are super-strong, based on the pre-pattern shadow power sources.

could be that pattern actually reduced the amount of shadow-power when it came into existence. in part because of how the JoJ was used. maybe all that stolen power is now only availible from the Jewel, or the spikards- both of which have major problems for the user. logical conclusion, destruction of pattern(s) would increase magic sources in shadow.

trump as a possible power source? you would only get the source depicted in the trump, but that could be a significant power boost by removing the transport problem, making a nice synergy between magic and trump. heck, ghostwheel could probably do a lot to move power around, if he needed to.

i could actually see shadow sources being MORE powerful than logrus or pattern, but more specialized in use and stuck in one spot. so if you can access them you have an edge, and this is why shadow-sorcerers are so bloody dangerous. a prince walking shadow has access to less power on the spur of the moment in general.

we should also get some 'blood sacrifice' power source. kill an animal, cut yourself, or kill a person. inconvenient and messy, but it works.

i guess the short list would then be Constructs, Powers, Shadow, and Blood. probably should be something else, of the older/forgotten variety as well- the shroudling's mirror realm being a good example.

You see if you split it this way it gets really dependent on setting. Supposing you wanted there to be a 'Power' behind Trump or supposing The Abyss was a Power in your game. I would prefer to have a generic way of describing a power then set Logrus and Pattern. I really like hte idea of differnt types of powers being good at different stuff I just can't make it elegant

[RPGPundit]

What we would need to do is have someone collect absolutely every reference to magic/sorcery from the Books, and list them all out, so we could definitively answer "what do we KNOW about sorcery"?

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

In my humble opinion: K.I.S.S.

I was made for loving you baby
You were made for loving meeeee

Alternation you would guess is Chaos, yet Pattern is the go to Power for Shadow Manipulation. Control is Order, yet control spell int eh books are more the work of Chaosites binding demons, casting sleep spells etc.

Chaos is unnatural alteration. Pattern is natural, possible alteration (the bit about what is possible can be made probable, what is probable can be made certain). Quite a distinction there

You could use this to make a distinction like the one in Mage: Logrus spells would be impressive but dangerous. Pattern spells could be safer, but subtler.

And pundit raises a VERY valid point about logrus spell racks.
An option could be to have such spells be "hardwired" into the logrus, so long as you maintain them, allowing you to cast them multiple times.

[Stormwind]

Chaos is unnatural alteration. Pattern is natural, possible alteration (the bit about what is possible can be made probable, what is probable can be made certain). Quite a distinction there

You could use this to make a distinction like the one in Mage: Logrus spells would be impressive but dangerous. Pattern spells could be safer, but subtler.

I agree ... I find it's best not to go into too much detail with sorcery and thus I simply stop at the 'flavor' stage. Croaker's description above is a good extrapolation of the differences of flavor between Logrus and Pattern.

And pundit raises a VERY valid point about logrus spell racks.
An option could be to have such spells be "hardwired" into the logrus, so long as you maintain them, allowing you to cast them multiple times.

True, true ... simply considering the rules, the spell rack ability of the Logrus can be a little too easily replicated. One approach is to 'improve' the Logrus benefits, another is to make it more expensive to replicate. I personally require both a good story, and a way for the character to have crafted the spell rack themselves (i.e. need to have both sorcery and conjuration). I suppose other approaches are possible too, but I've always found this to be sufficient with my players.

[jibbajibba]

I agree ... I find it's best not to go into too much detail with sorcery and thus I simply stop at the 'flavor' stage. Croaker's description above is a good extrapolation of the differences of flavor between Logrus and Pattern.


True, true ... simply considering the rules, the spell rack ability of the Logrus can be a little too easily replicated. One approach is to 'improve' the Logrus benefits, another is to make it more expensive to replicate. I personally require both a good story, and a way for the character to have crafted the spell rack themselves (i.e. need to have both sorcery and conjuration). I suppose other approaches are possible too, but I've always found this to be sufficient with my players.

One interesting thing about spell racks is that they seem to be very much a game mechanic to magic accessible. The items int eh novels that can rack spells, the Spikards and Mandor's Balls (fnarr, fnarr) are deep. Merlin hints that Mandor's balls were enchanted when he assailed the Logrus.
As a game mechanic however they are invaluable

I think a good backstory or the ability to create the item are a nice way to cover it off.
I think in my game i will require spells to have a power source but will run the magic types as flavour. Its simple but has hte effect of curbing power hungry magic and makes Power Sources themselves critical to sorcerors.

[RPGPundit]

I would suggest that whatever system one used, it should ultimately mean that Amberites could use sorcery as a source of "cheap tricks", ie. something non-essential and often tedious but occasionally useful, whereas Logrus sorcery would be something pretty much essential to their power-kit, something really worth getting for them.

RPGPundit

[Croaker]

Problem is how to do that???

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

I've been trying to figure out Amber Sorcery in a way that makes sense to me, so I'm really enjoying this thread!  I think the system you've come up with, Pundit, looks pretty good so far, and I'm glad it's play-tested well for you.  Also glad you included this example so I can see how the pieces go together:

Well, let's say you wanted to cast a "lightning bolt".

You'd need the following lynchpins:
Create
Direction (bolt extending out from your fingertips)
Shadow (the Shadow you were casting it in)
Element: Lightning

To "hang" the spell for quicker casting later, you'd need to leave at least once of those three lynchpins open, probably "Shadow". Thus, when the moment of casting came you'd fill in the word taking up your action that "round" and the spell would be cast.

You could choose to leave two lynchpins open, for example "Shadow" and "Element"; this means that instead of a Lightning bolt the spell would become a generic attack spell, where you could fire a bolt of fire, or ice, or lightning, or magma, or whatever you wanted. However, with two lynchpins open, it would take you two rounds of action to activate the spell.

RPGPundit

I've got a couple questions to make sure I'm reading everything right.  Let me know where I've gone wrong...

I'm an Amber sorcerer and I want to lightning bolt some dude I'm going to fight in shadow Avernus tomorrow.  I could just cast the spell tomorrow in the heat of battle, but it'll take 4 rounds to do it, and he'll probably shoot me with his crossbow before I finish the spell.  So instead, I'm going to cast MOST of the spell right now, and save just one word to speak tomorrow.  In this case, I know all the details -- I know I want to create lightning (2 words), and I know I want it to come out of my finger (1 word), and I know we'll be in Avernus (1 word).  But since I don't want the spell to go off right now, I have to hold back at least ONE word for now, even though I don't need to leave any room for variables.

QUESTION #1.  So when my sorcerer casts the lightning bolt right now (the day before the fight) it takes me 3 rounds for the 3 words I speak, or does it take 4 rounds since it's a 4 word spell (with the idea that I'm taking time to leave the hole for the unspoken lynchpin)?

QUESTION #2:  When my sorcerer casts the initial spell (leaving out 1 lynchpin), are you still using the convention of needing to rack or hang the unfinished spell in a receptacle?  Are you doing anything different with racking or hanging in that regard?

QUESTION #3:  In this specific lightning bolt case, shouldn't I be defining the length of the bolt with an additional lynchpin word?  Otherwise, how is the magic going to know whether to make the bolt shoot ten feet in front of me, or up to the fifth floor window?  Or are we assuming it will go until it hits something and then stop?

QUESTION #4:  How are you judging the damage done by the lightning bolt?  Is it a function of my Psyche Attribute (matching my Psyche vs the other guy's Strength)?  Do you also factor in how strong magic works in the shadow (like others have suggested)?

Thanks for this new look at Sorcery, especially the way spells are "built" as opposed to the rulebook's microspell approach.

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

What we would need to do is have someone collect absolutely every reference to magic/sorcery from the Books, and list them all out, so we could definitively answer "what do we KNOW about sorcery"?

RPGPundit

I nominate RPGPundit for this invaluable and honored task.  Honored task, I say!  Highly, highly honored!

[RPGPundit]

I've got a couple questions to make sure I'm reading everything right.  Let me know where I've gone wrong...

I'm an Amber sorcerer and I want to lightning bolt some dude I'm going to fight in shadow Avernus tomorrow.  I could just cast the spell tomorrow in the heat of battle, but it'll take 4 rounds to do it, and he'll probably shoot me with his crossbow before I finish the spell.  So instead, I'm going to cast MOST of the spell right now, and save just one word to speak tomorrow.  In this case, I know all the details -- I know I want to create lightning (2 words), and I know I want it to come out of my finger (1 word), and I know we'll be in Avernus (1 word).  But since I don't want the spell to go off right now, I have to hold back at least ONE word for now, even though I don't need to leave any room for variables.

Yes.

QUESTION #1.  So when my sorcerer casts the lightning bolt right now (the day before the fight) it takes me 3 rounds for the 3 words I speak, or does it take 4 rounds since it's a 4 word spell (with the idea that I'm taking time to leave the hole for the unspoken lynchpin)?

Actually, its more complicated than that. Each word takes 10 minutes to prepare; if you have a 4-part spell it takes 40 minutes to memorize; you are essentially memorizing ("hanging") all of the spell except the last little word of the lynchpin you leave open.

QUESTION #2:  When my sorcerer casts the initial spell (leaving out 1 lynchpin), are you still using the convention of needing to rack or hang the unfinished spell in a receptacle?  Are you doing anything different with racking or hanging in that regard?

No difference. You can "hang" one spell in your own mind, if you want to have more than that, you need some kind of receptacle, either the Logrus or some item.

QUESTION #3:  In this specific lightning bolt case, shouldn't I be defining the length of the bolt with an additional lynchpin word?  Otherwise, how is the magic going to know whether to make the bolt shoot ten feet in front of me, or up to the fifth floor window?  Or are we assuming it will go until it hits something and then stop?

The spell should have a "direction" word, which you could specify as "a line in front of me", the length of the lightning bolt would vary based on your psyche, but if you wanted to be sure it was of a limited length, you could add a second direction (for a "stopping" point).

QUESTION #4:  How are you judging the damage done by the lightning bolt?  Is it a function of my Psyche Attribute (matching my Psyche vs the other guy's Strength)?  Do you also factor in how strong magic works in the shadow (like others have suggested)?

The strength of the lightning bolt would depend on how powerful lightning is in a given shadow. It doesn't depend on your Psyche in this case because the lightning bolt is meant to be electricity, and that's going to have some kind of fixed strength based on the shadow where it is summoned.

Of course, all of this is just my own interpretation, you could choose to do any of these things differently.

RPGPundit

[Bird_of_Ill_Omen]

Thanks for the clarifications.  I appreciate the time you're taking to flesh these details out for me, cause it feels a lot more like how sorcery is described in the books.  Looking at the one primary source example from pg 61 of the rulebook (excerpt from Blood of Chaos), Merlin describes:

"I lined up the spoken signatures and edited them into a spell."

"Spoken signatures" here equating to the Structural Words and Effects listed in your system, and "edited them into a spell" referring to putting those words into a proper order for the spell to take effect.

And then when Merlin says:

"Suhuy would have probably gotten it down shorter..."

I like thinking that a more experienced sorcerer like Suhuy can boil down the number of Structural Words by using more comprehensive concepts -- for instance, instead of using the two words "Create+Fire," he's figured out how to use one word like "Combust" in his sorcery to be more efficient.

Actually, its more complicated than that. Each word takes 10 minutes to prepare; if you have a 4-part spell it takes 40 minutes to memorize; you are essentially memorizing ("hanging") all of the spell except the last little word of the lynchpin you leave open.

This longer preparation time makes more sense to me than the few rounds I first thought.  I wanted to ask you about this in reference to this passage from the Blood of Amber excerpt, in the second paragraph Merlin describes:

"Then I spoke the spell, slowly and clearly, leaving out the four key words I had chosen to omit.  The woods grew absolutely still about me as the words rang out.  The spell hung before me like a crippled butterfly of sound and color..."

Zelazny isn't specific about how long Merlin takes when he "spoke the spell, slowly and clearly."  In your reading of the book, is Merlin taking 40 minutes or so to speak this spell in this scene?  He very well could be, since Zelazny doesn't say exactly.  Or is this an instance where you read the book and imagine Merlin taking 5 or 15 minutes, but you've made a decision about longer spell preparation time for the sake of game balance cause it works better your way in gameplay (so sorcery guys aren't going all spell crazy)?

The length of the lightning bolt would vary based on your psyche...[edit]... The strength of the lightning bolt would depend on how powerful lightning is in a given shadow. It doesn't depend on your Psyche in this case because the lightning bolt is meant to be electricity, and that's going to have some kind of fixed strength based on the shadow where it is summoned.

I'm glad to see that psyche has some effect on the potency of a spell (in this case, length of lightning bolt).  In play, do you have a formalized idea of the ways a stronger psyche effects spells, or do you let your common sense judge on a case by case basis depending on the spell in question?  Mainly I'm wondering about contests between two sorcerers...does the higher psyche sorcerer have a clear advantage in the way that a higher warfare soldier does against another soldier?  Or does it really depend more on the way they decide to use their spells against the other sorcerer, making psyche a more indirect factor to the outcome of the contest?  I can see how in the lightning bolt case, the higher psyche sorcerer should stay out of range of the lower psyche sorcerer and thereby win.

Of course, all of this is just my own interpretation, you could choose to do any of these things differently.

This is exactly what I hoped to find on this forum...new ideas for doing things which each GM can then take and play with in a way that works for their own campaign.

[RPGPundit]

Regarding your questions, the length of time to memorize is mainly a balance issue. And from my experience in the campaign, yes, you do have to be VERY careful that your players don't go spell crazy.

As for Psyche, I see it as being the determinant factor in any spell that uses the "Target" keyword.

RPGPundit

[Malleus Aforethought]

The original system sounds a bit like the old Spell Design Language from way back. I always thought it a good representation for Merlin's view of magic.