Alternate Sorcery System (inspired by Promised Sands)

[jibbajibba]

all that seems to be lacking there is 'personal' power. what do you think ranks in endurance are for?

how does this impact conjuring? power for points, or power for mass conjured? according to merlin, conjuring food to eat has a net positive benefit.

That's a fair point. I also noted that Merlin refers a lot to how fast stuf is summoned either via logrus or sorcery. He notes for example that Dworkin summons a meal far faster than he could and there is that meal between Jasra, Mandor and Merlin that is all about the style speed and subtly of summoning dinner.

However, I wouldn't use endurance as a power source I would use it as a limit for how long you could keep a power channel open and keeping a powerful 'pipe' open would be more draining than allowing a power source to trickle its power to you.

[Croaker]

I had a system like that, a long time ago.

I allowed personnal power, the strength of which depended on Psyche and Strength (we're talking about raw energy there, and I figured this gave an added usefulness to it, but you could easily replace it by pure psyche, but this was draining (endurance).
Shadow power sources were limited in scope (say, Wolves, Fire, Sight) but could either provide a steady stream of magical energy, allowing an effect to theoretically last forever, or be drained dry to power a more powerfull spell or one who needed to carry its own energy supply. They also didn't require a special endurance feat, although some were harder to control than others, depending on psyche

Hum... An exemple:
I want a spell that transform someone into stone to last forever. If I find a powerful enough Shadow Magic source attuned to, say, stone or petrification, I can cast the spell on someone, linked to the source, that'll keep the effect going. If the target is moved to another shadow, the link is broken, and the spell quickly falls appart.
If the target is already in another shadow, I need a magical conduit, who'll need its own metamagic power source. This will also be very easy to spot throught shadow. Yet again, if the target is moved through shadow, the spell will fail, as the "conduit" will sooner or later be in a shadow with different magic rules, and fail => no energy => no petrification.
Or I can drain a power source to create an autonomous spell, wrapped up upon itself, which'll have a fixed duration (say, 10 years), but will be less affected by shadow shifting AND will be a lot more stealthy.

[RPGPundit]

The question would be as to Pattern magic vs Logrus Magic. Would pattern magic be more powerful? It probably should be, right? Only sorcery seems to be something that is more natural to the Logrus.
How would we actually account for that in such a way that it prevented munchkin amberites from all taking "pattern sorcery" and going apeshit on the supposed chaos Arch-wizards?

RPGPundit

[Stormwind]

As a DM I would simply say that whilst you can 'theoretically' use the logrus or the pattern to power any form of magic, magic powered by pattern is going to excel at giving things a fixed form (basically fixing something to a pattern, such as petrification spells), whilst magic powered by logrus will excel at changing things or making them more chaotic (such as disguise spells). I would also allow shapeshifting or trump to power magic, and again the 'flavor' of the power source determines the type of magic which that source is best suited to.

Finally, regarding munchkin amberites taking pattern sorcery and going apeshit on the wizards of Chaos, well Logrus users have a decided advantage there (as per the rules) ... they can hang multiple spells on the logrus itself.

My 2c worth

[Croaker]

The question would be as to Pattern magic vs Logrus Magic. Would pattern magic be more powerful? It probably should be, right? Only sorcery seems to be something that is more natural to the Logrus.
How would we actually account for that in such a way that it prevented munchkin amberites from all taking "pattern sorcery" and going apeshit on the supposed chaos Arch-wizards?

I took a similar approach than Stormwind.

To me, the Pattern could power any sorcery giving way to control, be it mental control or telekinesis, whereas Logrus could power Transformative sorcery.
Thus, a Pattern-based spell could force someone to stay still, be it through a mental command or by physically blocking him, but could not change a staff into a sword. A logrus-based spell could petrify someone, but could not lift a sword (although you could use the tendrils, but this is another matter)

For those who know Ars Magica, I had something like this:
Pattern: Intellego + Rego
Logrus: Intellego + Muto
Abyss: Perdo
Trump: Creo
Shadow power sources: Any technique in a limited area (at most a form)

I found this system was very usefull in simulating the usefulness of the Keep of Four Worlds (Magic in 4 elements) and especially the spikards (a LOT of minor power sources, covering possibly any situation, like "blinding wolves", "creating light", "destroying undead"), while keeping the power of Pattern/Logrus/Abyss

[jibbajibba]

Hmm... I will have to think. My initial reaction is that if you limited patterna nd Logrus like this then you would end up havign to limit every possible power source and crippling them as they would all need to be weaker than the poles. For example if you say a transformation spells are Chaos based and control spells are Pattern then if you are using a local power source can you use it to do both or does it need to be assigned to law/chaos what about if someone came up with a Ygg power could it do both? something else all togehter?
I think the confusion and paperwork might get real dragging (although it would make sorcery tedious enough to stop it being a go to power ) having to track each and all power sources and rank then in power on some sort of multi axes graph and every time you add a new primary power (trump? Abyss?) you would have to think does this require a new axes is x power unique?

I think I will settle for a simpler model where Logrus and Pattern have the same strength (as seems to be the case in the books) and are as effective at all versiosn of magic. The differential will be stuff that might limit the power in this shadow and the users score in the power (using a partial power system the total score in a power will liekly vary between characters) and their psyche.
I will probably have a profile for each shadow though that includes tech and magic.

[Stormwind]

I don't focus much on the details with regards to power sources for sorcery, I merely consider the 'flavor' of the power ...

... so for example, if a logrus sorcerer and a pattern sorcerer both try to cast a transformation power, then it would work for both but the logrus sorcerer would find it easier to cast or counter, whereas if they both tried to cast a control power, then again it would work for both but the pattern sorcerer would find it easier to cast or counter. Likewise other sorcerers would find spells that tied in to the 'flavor' of their power source easier to cast or counter.

Basically, one of the things I like best about the game is the freeform resolution and I try to do the same with sorcery, keeping it as simple as I can. For instance with the above example, either the pattern sorcerer or the logrus sorcerer might gain a small advantage depending on the spells they choose to use and how they choose to use them.

[Croaker]

Hmm... I will have to think. My initial reaction is that if you limited patterna nd Logrus like this then you would end up havign to limit every possible power source and crippling them as they would all need to be weaker than the poles. For example if you say a transformation spells are Chaos based and control spells are Pattern then if you are using a local power source can you use it to do both or does it need to be assigned to law/chaos what about if someone came up with a Ygg power could it do both? something else all togehter?

Well, thing is, sometimes, shadow power sources can do thing that pattern or logrus can't, but in a limited area. You also need a link to them.

Say that there's this Powerful Shadow Source that gives you power over fire (like, for exemple, the keep of four worlds, which is presented in the series like something major). You can use it to create fire, something you can't do with either pattern or logrus. But you can't use it to control a corpse's movements (something Pattern would allow you to do) or transmute a wall into glass, something easily done with logrus.
Creation and control over fire may be usefull, but this makes you a one-trick pony, something easily circumvented.

And this is the upper best of Magic Sources. Most were a loooot more limited, like "create swords" (something that Pattern couldn't do, but still...), "control wolves" (something logrus couldn't do, yet...).
A more powerful Shadow Source would let you control and transform wolves, which would be Pattern and Logrus abilities... limited to wolves.
You could this have powerful shadow sorcerers, but they'd be limited in what they could do, although, the more they traveled through Shadow and took control of various power sources, the more dangerous they'd became.

Once again, this fits perfectly with the books depiction of Shadow power sources, be it the miriad of minor sources seen through the spikards to the surprising Keep of the Four Worlds, rare and powerful enough for Brand to look into it.
This also echoes merlin's words about Pattern Magic and Logrus Magic.

And look at pundit's question over there: If you don't give each power its own abilities, what's the difference of Pattern Magic vs Logrus Magic vs Shadow Magic? None, which can get boring. IMO, if you allow anything to do anything, you lose a lot of game flavor and lose also the "So, that's what the book talked about!" feel.
Stormwind's solution is, still IMO, better than yours, although a "small" difference will probably be always overlooked by players.

As per ygg, first, I'd ask this: Shoudl everything be a power or allow you to do something?
Still, if you wanted to do this, it's just like a new power creation: The GM would have to see. Me, I'd probably allow it to nullify Pattern and Logrus sorcery: These powers do not extand past ygg

[JongWK]

In my humble opinion: K.I.S.S.

[jibbajibba]

Well, thing is, sometimes, shadow power sources can do thing that pattern or logrus can't, but in a limited area. You also need a link to them.

Say that there's this Powerful Shadow Source that gives you power over fire (like, for exemple, the keep of four worlds, which is presented in the series like something major). You can use it to create fire, something you can't do with either pattern or logrus. But you can't use it to control a corpse's movements (something Pattern would allow you to do) or transmute a wall into glass, something easily done with logrus.
Creation and control over fire may be usefull, but this makes you a one-trick pony, something easily circumvented.

And this is the upper best of Magic Sources. Most were a loooot more limited, like "create swords" (something that Pattern couldn't do, but still...), "control wolves" (something logrus couldn't do, yet...).
A more powerful Shadow Source would let you control and transform wolves, which would be Pattern and Logrus abilities... limited to wolves.
You could this have powerful shadow sorcerers, but they'd be limited in what they could do, although, the more they traveled through Shadow and took control of various power sources, the more dangerous they'd became.

Once again, this fits perfectly with the books depiction of Shadow power sources, be it the miriad of minor sources seen through the spikards to the surprising Keep of the Four Worlds, rare and powerful enough for Brand to look into it.
This also echoes merlin's words about Pattern Magic and Logrus Magic.

And look at pundit's question over there: If you don't give each power its own abilities, what's the difference of Pattern Magic vs Logrus Magic vs Shadow Magic? None, which can get boring. IMO, if you allow anything to do anything, you lose a lot of game flavor and lose also the "So, that's what the book talked about!" feel.
Stormwind's solution is, still IMO, better than yours, although a "small" difference will probably be always overlooked by players.

As per ygg, first, I'd ask this: Shoudl everything be a power or allow you to do something?
Still, if you wanted to do this, it's just like a new power creation: The GM would have to see. Me, I'd probably allow it to nullify Pattern and Logrus sorcery: These powers do not extand past ygg

As noted I am drawn to the KISS option ... however... if we were to add a 'school' system to the magic (a bit like the ars magica example above) a power source could have a profile against these 'schools' and spells would be of a school could even work that into the lynchpins ....

I will see if I can come up with some thing tonight.

[RPGPundit]

As a DM I would simply say that whilst you can 'theoretically' use the logrus or the pattern to power any form of magic, magic powered by pattern is going to excel at giving things a fixed form (basically fixing something to a pattern, such as petrification spells), whilst magic powered by logrus will excel at changing things or making them more chaotic (such as disguise spells). I would also allow shapeshifting or trump to power magic, and again the 'flavor' of the power source determines the type of magic which that source is best suited to.

Finally, regarding munchkin amberites taking pattern sorcery and going apeshit on the wizards of Chaos, well Logrus users have a decided advantage there (as per the rules) ... they can hang multiple spells on the logrus itself.

My 2c worth

Yeah, but again really, so what? Any Amber PC who gets sorcery will get a 2pt item to rack 12 spells on, and bob's your uncle; we're right back at supposedly-less-sorcerous-Amberites wiping the floor with supposedly-sorcery-rich-Chaosians.

RPGPundit

[SunBoy]

Yeah, but again really, so what? Any Amber PC who gets sorcery will get a 2pt item to rack 12 spells on, and bob's your uncle; we're right back at supposedly-less-sorcerous-Amberites wiping the floor with supposedly-sorcery-rich-Chaosians.

RPGPundit

Rules, not novels.

[RPGPundit]

Yes, that's right. What we're working on here is the rules. And how to make them actually work, not be rife for abuse that doesn't match the novels' emulation.

RPGPundit

[jibbajibba]

I sliced it a dozen ways last night. Tried emulating micro spells, Pundy's list of spell elements, I even looked at he D&D spell schools (mainly because I wanted 8 different aspects for in game reasons) but I couldn't come up with a list of spell type i was confortable that really fittend into the Amberverse.

Lets say we went with

Evocation - direct damage stuff
Summoning - bringing things through shadow
Travel - moving things through shadow/space
Alteration - changing the form of things (akin to Shadow manaipulation as well)
Control - meaning a pychic control type spell


With this list of 5 I was unable to say which would be Logrus and which pattern.

Yes I could create a power source that had 30023 profile (or more amusingly for 90s tv fans 90210)
and i coudl see that that power source coudl produce spells of 3 'schools' which a degree of success. But I couldn't actually split Logrus and Pattern. Alternation you would guess is Chaos, yet Pattern is the go to Power for Shadow Manipulation. Control is Order, yet control spell int eh books are more the work of Chaosites binding demons, casting sleep spells etc.

So ... I am moving back to KISS  


(also considered the following magick types... Dreams, Mirrors, Time, Divination, Self, demonic, ...)

[SunBoy]

Yes, that's right. What we're working on here is the rules. And how to make them actually work, not be rife for abuse that doesn't match the novels' emulation.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I got that. I suppose my old line "people wouldn't abuse those rules because they want to play a nice game" won't be of use. Emulation shouldn't be the GM's or rulebook's problem only.