...that for a Forge-ite, thematic, personality-mechanic-driven game, it does have a GM subchapter titled "When in doubt, send in the Ninjas".

    If the Aspects aren't to taste, one could still have a perfectly workable pulp-oriented system based on the Skills and Stunts alone.  Certain skills like Resolve, Might, Endurance, and others cover character capabilities usually denoted by stats or attributes.  Have the GM award Fate points for player actions that are suitably heroic, clever, or good roleplaying.  Ditch the ability to attack Composure, and just use the Health stress track to reflect physical damage.  There--trad Fudge-based system good to go for pulpy action.

Andrew

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean the point is your characters aren't just Prof. Quest going on adventures just because; its characters whose success defines a positive future for mankind, because they embody the "spirit of the age".

Dude, if you really think that characters in pulp fiction go on adventures "just because," and that optimism and progress weren't themes of the pulp age, I submit that you haven't read nearly enough pulp fiction.  I'm sure there are at least a handful of pulp* characters whose motivations were something other than making the world a better place, but I'm having a hard time thinking of one off-hand.

(* And by pulp I specifically mean "not noir."  If you're going to use noir characters and the noir worldview as a counterpoint, have fun.  I'm sure there are people who will try to argue that pulp and noir are the same thing, but I'm not one of them.)

In any case, "just because" is an idiotic motivation in any genre of fiction or roleplaying.  It's suitable for playing the battleship in Monopoly, but not much else.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI'm sure there are at least a handful of pulp* characters whose motivations were something other than making the world a better place, but I'm having a hard time thinking of one off-hand.

I'm not sure exactly what does count, but for myself I'd say that much of the time, ERB's chars, John Carter of Mars and Tarzan weren't really out for any kind of greater good. (trying to save family members/friends/hot fems in danger or thier own skin much of the time if I remember right) Maybe I missed pulp, *shrugs* not entirely sure like I said.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolDude, if you really think that characters in pulp fiction go on adventures "just because," and that optimism and progress weren't themes of the pulp age, I submit that you haven't read nearly enough pulp fiction.  I'm sure there are at least a handful of pulp* characters whose motivations were something other than making the world a better place, but I'm having a hard time thinking of one off-hand.

No doubt, faith in the marvels of "Progress" were very key elements of Pulp stories, but that's largely because they were a genuinely-held belief of the age. Not that there weren't critics of the concept, but it was still the zeitgeist of the time, and not so much a conscious effort on the author's part to try to impose a particular theme as much as they were (like other things, like racism for example) a byproduct of the age in which they were written.

QuoteIn any case, "just because" is an idiotic motivation in any genre of fiction or roleplaying.  It's suitable for playing the battleship in Monopoly, but not much else.

KoOS

Well, in a lot of Pulp stories you did have characters going off on adventures just because the adventures were there to be had, to gain fame and fortune, or to explore places that were never explored before.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNo doubt, faith in the marvels of "Progress" were very key elements of Pulp stories, but that's largely because they were a genuinely-held belief of the age. Not that there weren't critics of the concept, but it was still the zeitgeist of the time, and not so much a conscious effort on the author's part to try to impose a particular theme as much as they were (like other things, like racism for example) a byproduct of the age in which they were written.

Well, sure.  And in SotC, like in the pulps, this zeitgeist is an influence but not something that gets in the way of kicking ass with sky pirates and gorilla ninjas.  It's there in the background for those that care to think about such things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I guess the one thing that struck me is that what we're talking about here is exactly the kind of higher emotion that you were calling for in your "Why the Angst?" thread... but when it's provided here, you shit all over it.  What gives?

QuoteWell, in a lot of Pulp stories you did have characters going off on adventures just because the adventures were there to be had, to gain fame and fortune, or to explore places that were never explored before.

I think you've got two out of three there, though of course pulp-era exploration is inherently tied to progress.  Actually, I suppose the Barsoom characters are a good example of non-optimistic pulp characters but then they're taken out of the context of 1920s society anyway.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolWell, sure.  And in SotC, like in the pulps, this zeitgeist is an influence but not something that gets in the way of kicking ass with sky pirates and gorilla ninjas.  It's there in the background for those that care to think about such things, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I guess the one thing that struck me is that what we're talking about here is exactly the kind of higher emotion that you were calling for in your "Why the Angst?" thread... but when it's provided here, you shit all over it.  What gives?

Because it felt like it was out of place with the shallowness of Pulp as a genre.
It felt like it was trying to give Pulp a subtext that just isn't there, and that most people looking to play Pulp wouldn't be looking for.

I think that the Century Club concept, if it had been marketed as something other than Pulp, would have been really appealing to me.
Shit, if these guys had made TWO RPGs instead of one; and had them be:
1. A pulp RPG without all of the deeper message
2. The Century Club RPG without it being specifically tied to the Pulp genre
Those would both have been great games.
The problem is that the whole Century Club business seems tacked on, IMO.
The fact that apparently its based on a comic (something I didn't know at the time I wrote the review) only cements that feeling now.

QuoteI think you've got two out of three there, though of course pulp-era exploration is inherently tied to progress.  Actually, I suppose the Barsoom characters are a good example of non-optimistic pulp characters but then they're taken out of the context of 1920s society anyway.

KoOS

Note that I'm not arguing, and I don't think anyone's arguing, that Pulp was not optimistic.
I'm arguing that Pulp games weren't consciously written to deal with Optimism as a feel, they were just that way because that's part of the world they inhabited.

RPGPundit

Quote from: iagoI suspected as much, but if nothing else -- let's be honest here -- it'll raise awareness of the existence of the game.  Positive or negative, that's what a review does!  And since we operate on a zero-dollar advertising budget right now, that's gold.

A detailed critical review can sell games almost as much as a detailed positive one.

If I read a review and someone is saying they hated it for it's combat system which prioritised quick resolution over detailed realism then that is a criticism, but for me a selling point.

Equally, for many, a review saying "this game has detailed social conflict mechanics which I think is a really bad idea" will help others by letting them know that the social conflict rules they want are present.

A good bad review can help if the reader's tastes are different to the reviewer's and the review is clear enough to make it clear why the reviewer didn't like it.

Anodyne reviews, those are the dangerous ones.

On a separate note, Andy, what the fuck is this about dude?  Why repeatedly post saying how you don't care?  You're better than that, walk away for fuck's sake.

I don't like the Century Club concept at all, but I took it a bit like that wierd energy thing in Adventure!, not something I like but laughably easy to jettison and ignore.

Is that wrong?

Quote from: RPGPunditBecause it felt like it was out of place with the shallowness of Pulp as a genre.
It felt like it was trying to give Pulp a subtext that just isn't there, and that most people looking to play Pulp wouldn't be looking for.

[SNIP]

Note that I'm not arguing, and I don't think anyone's arguing, that Pulp was not optimistic.
I'm arguing that Pulp games weren't consciously written to deal with Optimism as a feel, they were just that way because that's part of the world they inhabited.

The reason I disagreed with the first part of what you wrote here is pretty much because I agree with the second.  The authors of SotC aren't giving Pulp a subtext so much as a context that would come naturally to the authors and readers of the 1920s, but for us not so much.

And I disagree that the game would be better served by being more shallow than it already is, but of course YMMV.  Tastes differ.

KoOS

Quote from: BalbinusI don't like the Century Club concept at all, but I took it a bit like that wierd energy thing in Adventure!, not something I like but laughably easy to jettison and ignore.

Is that wrong?

Well, seeing as (from my perspective) we MADE the relatively thin setting bits to be laughably easy to jettison and ignore, I would point at that and identify it as the game working as it's designed.

So not "wrong" from where we stand!

Quote from: iagoWell, seeing as (from my perspective) we MADE the relatively thin setting bits to be laughably easy to jettison and ignore, I would point at that and identify it as the game working as it's designed.

So not "wrong" from where we stand!

That's what I figured.

When Adventure! came out lots of people complained about the background in that, but it was just there if you wanted it.  It was perfectly easy to ignore and changed nothing in the game if you did so.

I never really understood the objections, those who liked the background had it there to use, those who didn't needn't.  It seems a bit of a win-win.

Good luck with SotC, I'll check it out when it hits the shops here.

Quote from: BalbinusGood luck with SotC, I'll check it out when it hits the shops here.

Where's 'here'?  I know that Angus at Leisure Games in London should be getting his in just a few weeks.

Quote from: iagoWhere's 'here'?  I know that Angus at Leisure Games in London should be getting his in just a few weeks.

London, centre of the civilised universe.

I just got Hex and won't be running anything for a bit as I'm playing currently (or would be if not for constant business trips to Finland this month), so I will probably pick up SotC in the new year if I do.  If I don't it will be because Hex does enough for me, I can only run so many games and I'm trying nowadays to only buy when I have actual play clearly planned for the book.

I do hope the game sells well, it's good to see Fate getting a decent showing and you guys clearly have put a lot into this.

Quote from: BalbinusLondon, centre of the civilised universe.

As opposed to Boston, which is the hub of the civilized universe...

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceAs opposed to Boston, which is the hub of the civilized universe...

-clash

"And here's to good old Boston / The land of the bean and the cod / Where Lowells talk only to Cabots / And Cabots talk only to God."