Quote from: RPGPunditFATE is more artsy-fartsy to be sure, with its emphasis being on "personality attributes" and social combat, and making combat no different from any other resolution.

RPGPundit

I keep banging my head about that idea. I've never seen a problem in this. Actually, in one of your ravings you regarded the D20 unified mechanic as a good thing (though D20 combat don't use the exact same mechanic as the rest of the system).

Quote from: iagoAh so!  I should have read your comment more closely.  My apologies.

You can make up for this incredible offense by cloning yourself and Mr. Donoghue and setting the clones to work on finishing FATE 3.0 tout de suite.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolYou can make up for this incredible offense by cloning yourself and Mr. Donoghue and setting the clones to work on finishing FATE 3.0 tout de suite.

*laugh* I hear ya.

Quote from: iagoI suspected as much, but if nothing else -- let's be honest here -- it'll raise awareness of the existence of the game.  Positive or negative, that's what a review does!  And since we operate on a zero-dollar advertising budget right now, that's gold.

Don't forget, a lot of people here don't march in lockstep with the Pundit. This site is open to everyone - like Andy, for example. Many people read reviews by reviewers they don't agree with, on the theory that "what they DON'T like, I MIGHT like."

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceDon't forget, a lot of people here don't march in lockstep with the Pundit. This site is open to everyone - like Andy, for example. Many people read reviews by reviewers they don't agree with, on the theory that "what they DON'T like, I MIGHT like."

That's certainly the hope.  No actual pessimism here!

Quote from: iagoThat's certainly the hope.  No actual pessimism here!

Anyway, Pundit mentioned "gushing" in his review of my In Harm's Way, but he didn't mention the entire page of complaints* about it that preceeded the gush... If he is like that with a game he likes...

*All entirely justified, BTW. I really do suck at layout, and editing one's own writing is an excercise in futility.

-clash

Quote from: iagoThese are fair observations (at least from the point of the publisher/authors, heh).  The optimism bit was a very small section in the intro chapter that talks about the background of the game.  There's absolutely nothing in the game, mechanically, to support optimism; that's just a frame-of-mind statement, made inside of a few paragraphs, and done.  So at least in terms of our intentions in presentation, Andrew has it right: the optimism thing is gloss.  Important gloss, maybe, but easy to scuff off.

Huh?

Look again at your game: What is the basis of your setting? A group of people who embody the possible directions of the 20th century struggling to create a bright future against those who would create a dark future. Its about the triumph of optimism in an age where "progress" was seen as the almighty goal.

I mean the point is your characters aren't just Prof. Quest going on adventures just because; its characters whose success defines a positive future for mankind, because they embody the "spirit of the age".

I'd say that your use of the word "optimism" in the intro set a very strong tone indeed.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceAnyway, Pundit mentioned "gushing" in his review of my In Harm's Way, but he didn't mention the entire page of complaints* about it that preceeded the gush... If he is like that with a game he likes...

*All entirely justified, BTW. I really do suck at layout, and editing one's own writing is an excercise in futility.

-clash

I think it'd be hard to find a game that is perfect (and perfectly done) in every single way. And no matter how much I like a game, I will point out the product's flaws. I adored "In Harm's Way", but had to tell people that there were layout issues with it.

No one gets a free ride; even if I love your game, I will mention all I can think of that could be improved about it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHuh?

Look again at your game: What is the basis of your setting? A group of people who embody the possible directions of the 20th century struggling to create a bright future against those who would create a dark future. Its about the triumph of optimism in an age where "progress" was seen as the almighty goal.

I mean the point is your characters aren't just Prof. Quest going on adventures just because; its characters whose success defines a positive future for mankind, because they embody the "spirit of the age".

I'd say that your use of the word "optimism" in the intro set a very strong tone indeed.

RPGPundit

no offence Pundit, but I think you are reading more into it than is really there. :cool:

Dude, I'm not reading in any "hidden level" to it; I'm reading exactly what the book boldfacedly says. Its the entire fucking point of the "Century club" setting! How could it be more "unhidden" than that?!

If they didn't want it to be about trying to deal with these bigger themes, they'd just have made the century club a gang of adventurers that go on these Pulp adventures just because. The way other Pulp stories have done for ages.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditLook again at your game: What is the basis of your setting? A group of people who embody the possible directions of the 20th century struggling to create a bright future against those who would create a dark future. Its about the triumph of optimism in an age where "progress" was seen as the almighty goal.

Granted.  On the other hand, I have a perspective that the "setting" is very light, occupying 10% of the book at best.  It's a framing device, sure, but the game system itself doesn't try to reinforce that.  

For my side of it (and keep in mind, I'm only one third of the authors!) I've always looked at SotC as a general high-pulp game first, and as something oriented on the Century Club setting as a distant second.  Lenny and Rob may think differently (though in Lenny's case, at least, he tends to run a personal version of the setting called the Burton Foundation, which is a Pulp/Cthulhu blend).

To put it another way, I consider the setting pretty discardable.  It'll stand on its own, sure, but it's not the point of the game.

But that's just IMO.

Quote from: RPGPunditI adored "In Harm's Way", but had to tell people that there were layout issues with it.

not that I don't like Flying Mices game, cuz I really do but they as a whole have a layout problem. If you don't like  the layout of IHW you will likely be made sick by SC2.

I didn't really have a problem with the layout of IHW myself, it is easily the best layout Clash has done so far. I have to give Clash credit, he fully admits that it is a weakness and if you look at his products as a whole, you see a gradual impovement in layout quality. So he is working @ getting better.

but like I said the layout for IHW wasn't bad in my mind. :shrug:

Quote from: RPGPunditI think it'd be hard to find a game that is perfect (and perfectly done) in every single way. And no matter how much I like a game, I will point out the product's flaws. I adored "In Harm's Way", but had to tell people that there were layout issues with it.

No one gets a free ride; even if I love your game, I will mention all I can think of that could be improved about it.

RPGPundit

That's the way it should be.

-clash

Quote from: iagoGranted.  On the other hand, I have a perspective that the "setting" is very light, occupying 10% of the book at best.  It's a framing device, sure, but the game system itself doesn't try to reinforce that.  

For my side of it (and keep in mind, I'm only one third of the authors!) I've always looked at SotC as a general high-pulp game first, and as something oriented on the Century Club setting as a distant second.  Lenny and Rob may think differently (though in Lenny's case, at least, he tends to run a personal version of the setting called the Burton Foundation, which is a Pulp/Cthulhu blend).

To put it another way, I consider the setting pretty discardable.  It'll stand on its own, sure, but it's not the point of the game.

But that's just IMO.

I think that it was a combination of factors; the way you framed the significance of Pulp was one of them.  I probably could have taken it as a throw-away statement had the game system been GURPS, D20, or some other system that didn't also put a strong emphasis on personality mechanics the way FATE-Fudge does with "aspects"; but those two things together PLUS the whole setting of the Century Club itself all added up to signal to me that this was actually something very central to the game you guys wanted to make.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI think that it was a combination of factors; the way you framed the significance of Pulp was one of them.  I probably could have taken it as a throw-away statement had the game system been GURPS, D20, or some other system that didn't also put a strong emphasis on personality mechanics the way FATE-Fudge does with "aspects"; but those two things together PLUS the whole setting of the Century Club itself all added up to signal to me that this was actually something very central to the game you guys wanted to make.

Yep. That's a fair assessment/perspective -- just as valid as mine, in fact.  

The difference in our perspectives is probably at least in part due to the fact that I've been soaking in aspects, as it were, for a good five years, now.  To someone taking on both aspects AND our brief intro setting chapter at the same time, I can totally see where your perspective came up. (Which isn't to say that combo is the only cause, but I can see how it contributed.)