RPGPundit Reviews: Green Devil Face

This is a review of Green Devil Face, numbers 1, 2, and 3; written by (or  more correctly put, edited by) James Raggi.
These three "old school" books are in the form of three booklets, softcover, with some very nice images from woodcuts on the front and back covers. Sadly, that's just about one of the only positive things I've been able to think of to say about this product. The interior features no pictures whatsoever, though they do have a few graph-paper style maps of dungeon areas.

I really don't know what to say about these booklets, the first material I've read from Mr. Raggi.  They are apparently rather successful among the OSR-crowd. And the booklets, or mainly, volume 1, contains a huge number of in-jokes and references to the OSR-people.  To the point that, frankly, if you don't know about the people, forums, blogs, etc. being referenced, you won't find it funny, or even (in many cases) comprehensible.

Volume 1 of 3 was apparently originally published as "Fantasy Fucking Vietnam", which is a term used in the OSR-crowd to describe a preferred style of dungeon-crawling play.  Frankly, this is all indicative of the worst aspects of what I find wrong with the OSR ("Old School Renaissance", if you didn't know). Its utterly incestuous, self-referential in a way that surpasses even the Forge, and presents a vision of old-school gaming that is incredibly narrow, rather than celebrating the variety. They have constructed a myth of how it was in "old school gaming" that doesn't match my own memories or those of many others, and that tends to the extremes while ignoring the center.

The background for Volume 1 is as follows, with my own commentary in parentheses: "the village of Erehps-Oglob ("blogo-sphere" written backwards! Get it! How clever...) are in trouble! They used to join their neighbours the D'Footian tribe ("Dragonfoot", get it? Oh, its so delicious...), in worshipping the Mad Mage (Gygax...), who had traveled in their lands years ago".
It goes on; basically, its a dungeon in the form of the "Shrine to the Mad Mage", which has been taken over by the D'footians, and now the tribe of the blogo-sphere-backwards are going to go adventuring there and teach the D'footians a lesson.
So yeah, believe it or not, this is a dungeon about an internet flame war.
I have to give Mr.Raggi points for creativity, but frankly, if you don't go to Dragonfoot (which I don't, mostly), and if you don't give a fuck about the OSR people, particularly the exiles who were banned from Dragonfoot, who are portrayed as the heros here, you really won't get this premise or give a fuck.

There's a nice dungeon map of the "Shrine", which Raggi hints that he designed pretty well at random. There are some moderately dangerous random-encounter tables, which consist mainly of encounters with dangerous D'footians or some gruesome traps. No interesting monsters to speak of.

After that, the rest of the booklet consists of 59 area descriptions of varying length.  Some take up more than a page, others just a couple of lines. In some, the description is as short as "Its a torture chamber, be creative". But to be fair, these are the minority, the majority of rooms describe incredibly dangerous encounters and save-or-die style Gygaxian traps that add up to create a massive slaughterhouse for PCs. There's also one or two red-herring rooms; like a sculptor's studio filled with very lifelike statues, designed to make the by-now-very-paranoid PCs convinced that there's a petrification trap somewhere, when in fact they're just statues.
Only, I don't know if I'd fall for that, because its too obvious. Mr.Raggi should have taken it a step further and added an anvil falling on someone's head, ratcheting up the irony in that room. I say this, because most of the "trap" rooms contain traps that do not have obvious hints, but are instead meant to be completely non-obvious and thus deadlier.

Just a few examples: A totally empty room with a door, which looks like it would be a safe place to camp for the night, but if the door is kept closed for an hour the room fills with a disintegration gas that destroys everything inside, no save.
A room with a large toadstool, with gold nuggets under it. Trying to take a gold nuggest causes a gas spore to release requiring a save-vs-poison to avoid instant death. Trying to cut or move the toadstool will cause it to explode, causing everyone within 40' to have to make the same save.

As I mentioned, many of the longer entries contain references to the online forum world, through the OSR lens. One room contains two "Troll Lords", for example, that are piling a bunch of rubble around and claim that they're trying to "rebuild the castle of the mad mage".

There's also a latrine room, it contains a "Urine Weird" (identical to the water weird, but more idiotically sophomoric, I guess).

There are a few clever rooms; there's one that has the "great sage Randorgiga", for example. I must admit my lore-about-OSR-in-jokes fails me at that stage, because I don't know who "randorgiga" is supposed to refer to, though its clearly meant to be an injoke. The Sage answers any and all questions by rolling dice, and consulting a table; the mechanic is to roll 3d12+1970, and the result will be a story about what happened in the Mad Mage's (Gygax's) life at that time. For example, rolling 18, for a result of 1988, will mean the Sage says "The mad mage was deposed of power by the heir of the XXVth Century and struggled with his loss of power".
In other words, sort of amusing to read, but utterly useless. That pretty much describes this whole booklet.

Booklets 2 and 3 are not like number 1. I had expected more of the same, but in fact these two, while very similar to each other, have little in common with the original apart from the name. Instead of a dungeon, what you get are a bunch of traps, which the editor claims are "particularly original or clever").  I say editor rather than author because these traps were not written by Mr. Raggi but rather submitted to him by people online. Booklet 2 has 12 traps, and booklet 3 has 11, if I counted them right. The shortest of these is about half-a-page, and the longer ones go on for several pages, essentially consisting of small dungeon areas with a significant degree of complex deadliness. A minority of these traps include small dungeon-maps of the area. Some have mechanics, many are just descriptions.

To give you some examples, from book 2 we have a room with a Continual Darkness spell, totally dark, and empty except for 2 dopplegangers. Anyone who enters will be attacked by these dopplegangers, who will try to knock them out with their saps (requiring a save vs death ray once grappled, to avoid unconcsiousness), and will then be dragged to a secret room, illuminated, where the dopplegangers will torture their prisoners and take their appearance, one of the dopplegangers going back into the main room pretending to be the PC and then "try to lure the party to their deaths in the dungeons" (the nature of their deaths or the rest of the dungeon of course not being described). I don't know how original or clever that is, really.

To give another example, this one written by Mr.Raggi himself, there is the "hallway that does not exist". Its a corridor that appears to extend for 200'. Anyone who walks down it will notice that after a bit, all the colour seems to start to fade, then objects will become blurrier, then become intangible, and eventually cease to exist. So essentially, this is a trap if the PCs insist on moving forward, thinking that there is some trick to it. Should they stop or turn back, they will live. Its the kind of traps I hate, that punish standard PC behaviour without really giving any reason for being, or a way to resolve the situation other than just not getting into it in the first place.

Another one, from book 3, describes a rare outdoor-trap. When travelling down a path, the PCs encounter a goblin corpse next to a sign warning them about the "red stream". The stream, which they find later, is full of Sea-kittens, mewing and frolicking. Horses which come near the stream will automatically buck off its rider, and its gear will magically teleport on the back of the horse's owner, stuck there (unless you cast a remove curse on it). Anyone who tries to cross the stream will have red liquid spit at them by the sea-kittens, cursing the armor the PC is wearing, and from then on as long as he has the armor on he will have horrific hallucinations  anytime he sees anyone eating meat.

What the fuck was Mr.Raggi smoking?! Or is this another clever in-joke I'm not getting?

The title of the last trap in the 3rd booklet is called "This is Seriously Unfair!", which I think might have been a better way to title books 2 and 3 than "Green Devil Face".

In any case, there's pretty well fuck-all here that would be worth using, except in the sense of enjoying reading it if you happen to be an OSR-guy, and even then I'd have trouble imagining myself, were I an OSR guy, paying for this stuff. In terms of practical use, if you are already a hardcore "Fantasy Fucking Vietnam"-style DM, who truly believes in this sort of game play, you might find some of the traps here of some use, though most of it is just so pointless and surreal that I certainly couldn't consider it clever.

I'm sorry to say that all of this has only befuddled and alienated me further from the mentality of the Old School Renaissance. We'll see, as I have some other booklets of Mr.Raggi's to review in the next while, if I find anything more redeemable in those. But honestly, I couldn't really recommend Green Devil Face to anyone.

RPGPundit

Currently Smoking: The Wench's Masonic Meerschaum + Burlington's Curmudgeon

1. Thanks for the review. I will avoid these products.

2. Well, I've spent quite a bit of time reading the blogs over the last few months, and I don't think that things are as incestuous as all that. Opinions vary on all kinds of things. The biggest and most troublesome common threads I see: what I would refer to as the purity problem (is it old school enough?); a sense of persecution*, and a bit of Gygax fetishism coupled with a romanticized view of the past**- and even these are far from universal.***


*This may not be totally unjustified; however no mater who you are somebody hates your game and has the time and inclination to bitch about it (and how fucked up you are for liking it) on the internet. Furthermore, many oldschoolers are flamingly hypocritical on this issue; the usual rationalization seems to be, "they started it!" Which, true or not, is rather sad.
** notice I did not use the word Nostalgia.
*** this is the most important part my post.

Nice review. Had I never heard of GDF, you would have actually sold me on them based on your descriptions. Even if there are some ridiculous ideas that I would never use, it would at least make for a fun read.

Also, although I am a fan of the OSR, you didn't alienate me. You're writing is too interesting to bypass while surfing the Erehps-Oglob.

On the one hand, yeah, I could see how amusing they would be if you were knee-deep in the community that spawned them...

On the other, that's just silly, and not in the good way.

Nice review, though.

Good review. Books of traps can be fun and useful but these don't sound like anything to write home about.

A couple of notes: "Sea Kittens" is probably a reference to some PETA nonsense from a year or so ago. "Randorgiga" is Grognardia.

It's funny, see?

...Oh boy.

Quote from: RPGPundit;341296...
I'm sorry to say that all of this has only befuddled and alienated me further from the mentality of the Old School Renaissance...

:rolleyes:
Here you go again, making all kinds of idiotic assumptions about the OSR that have no relation to reality, e.g., assuming that the OSR is a 'unified' movement with a single 'mentality,' that a single fanzine is representative of the OSR as a whole, etc.  

That said, thanks for the review.  These don't sound that good, which is somewhat surprising and disappointing, given that I quite like the one module by Raggi that I own, Death Frost Doom.

The main unifying element with regard to the OSR seems to be the swift and tiresome way (most of) you react to criticism.

PS. none of you play pre-2e D&D for any reason other than nostalgia. Just sayin'.

Quote from: Lord Rocket;341398The main unifying element with regard to the OSR seems to be the swift and tiresome way (most of) you react to criticism.

PS. none of you play pre-2e D&D for any reason other than nostalgia. Just sayin'.

Welcome to the RPGsite, Lord Rocket!  It is clear that you have many very helpful, well-informed, and constructive comments to offer us.

Quote from: Lord Rocket;341398The main unifying element with regard to the OSR seems to be the swift and tiresome way (most of) you react to criticism.

PS. none of you play pre-2e D&D for any reason other than nostalgia. Just sayin'.

Maybe. I mean, I do play because I think it's fun, but if there's some nostolgia thrown in there for the game, that's fine with me.

I also feel that way toward Monopoly and Howard the Duck comics.

Quote from: Akrasia;341405Welcome to the RPGsite, Lord Rocket!  It is clear that you have many very helpful, well-informed, and constructive comments to offer us.

Only half of that message was unconstructive criticism.

Quote from: Akrasia;341397:rolleyes:
Here you go again, making all kinds of idiotic assumptions about the OSR that have no relation to reality, e.g., assuming that the OSR is a 'unified' movement with a single 'mentality,' that a single fanzine is representative of the OSR as a whole, etc.  

Well, you know, you guys keep saying that; after I point out one guy/forum/blog after another. Last time around several of you pointed to Mr.Raggi as an example of someone who was doing original and interesting stuff and did not fit into the "mold" I was apparently unfairly casting for the OSR. Now, I've reviewed these booklets, found them wanting, and he's just another guy you've cast to the wolves by saying "He doesn't represent us".

In the end, how many OSR-related people and products would one have to discard in order to finally get to someone or something that you'll claim DOES represent you, Akrasia?

RPGPundit

It's nice to see the Flaming Princess reviewed by someone other than his good buddy Geoffrey McKinney.

Quote from: RPGPundit;341508Well, you know, you guys keep saying that; after I point out one guy/forum/blog after another.

Yes, because going from one guy/forum/blog after another will simply get you what that particular guy/forum/blog happens to like or think, not what everyone, or even most people, in the OSR likes or thinks.  

You make the point that there was a wide variety of different styles of games (even D&D games) back in Ye Olde Golden Age.  Most (although perhaps not all, e.g. some folks at K&KA) people who consider themselves part of the OSR couldn't agree more!  That's why trying to pinpoint a single 'orthodoxy', or identify a single person's products as 'representative of the OSR', is a fundamental mistake.

Quote from: RPGPundit;341508In the end, how many OSR-related people and products would one have to discard in order to finally get to someone or something that you'll claim DOES represent you, Akrasia?

Well, I'm happy to represent myself!    Check out my articles for FO! and Knockspell, all available for free at my gaming blog, Akratic Wizardry, and you'll see what I like in my games.  

If you want to know what other OSR products I like, then I'm happy to tell you.  

First of all, I think that the magazines Fight On! and Knockspell do a great job in representing the diversity and creativity of the OSR.  Not all of the material is brilliant, of course, but for every dud article in those magazines there are two or more extremely cool ones.  Moreover, you will see a wide variety of radically different approaches to gaming in those magazines, and especially FO! (KS is somewhat more focused on 0e and 1e, and their respective retro-clones.)  Material for Tekumel (FO! has permission from Prof. Barker himself to publish new Tekumel material), homebrew settings, adventures (both 'classic' dungeon crawls, including an unfolding 'mega-dungeon' over several issues, and very unorthodox adventures), house rules, new monsters, new magic items, GM'ing ideas, and so forth, can be found in those 'zines.  Skim through FO! #6, for instance, and you'll see how diverse and creative the OSR really is!

As for specific people whose work I like, I think that pretty much anything written by Gabor Lux ("Melan" on this board) is gold.  Check out the material that he's written for Fight On! or Knockspell.  His articles are mainly adventures (or rather 'adventure sites') or city descriptions (his "City of Vultures" in KS#3 is brilliant), although he does present an overview of his truly original setting "Fomalhaut" in FO! #3.  Melan also has some great material for the Wilderlands setting floating around on the internet for free.  

I think that Robert Conley ("estar" on this board) is another participant in the OSR that produces great material.  I believe that you liked his Points of Light work, no?  Well, if so, you should definitely check out his "The Wild North" in FO!#3, which presents "Map 19" for the Wilderlands setting.  

Jeff Rients is another participant in the OSR that consistently produces material that I dig.  He has many short articles in FO!, as well as a truly wonderful supplement called Miscellaneum of Cinder that contains many extremely cool charts and ideas for old school games.  I especially like his rather whimsical approach to fantasy gaming.

I'm also a fan of Matt Finch ("Mythmere"), the guy behind the Swords & Wizardry game (the 0e retro-clone).  His modules, Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom and Spire of Iron and Crystal are great, IMO.  His City Encounters and Eldritch Weirdness are also inspired, full of slightly unhinged 'swords and sorcery' flavour.

Right now I'm digging John Higgins's Engines & Empires game supplement and setting.  E&E uses the Labyrinth Lord rules (the Basic/Expert D&D retro-clone) to present a steampunk fantasy setting (something vaguely similar to the setting presented in the crpg 'Arcanum', although nonetheless quite original).  The myth that the OSR is all about trying to revive, zombie-like, the style of adventures from 1974-82 is exploded by E&E, a set of rules and setting that is nothing like what was available during 'ye days of yore.'

There are other people whose work I could praise here, but this post is getting too long (some quick mentions: Kellri's "Old School Encounters Reference" Netbook; Age of Fable's many tables in FO!; and most things written by Calithena).  (Of course, there also are some people who are considered part of the OSR who produce things that I very much do not like, but I don't see any point in getting into that now.)

To conclude, it is a mistake to attribute any single 'mentality' or 'orthodoxy' to the OSR.  The OSR is simply too diverse for that.  Rather, some people who consider themselves part of the OSR (primarily because of their fondness for older games, or older gaming styles) are producing great new material, and some people who consider themselves part of the OSR are producing rubbish.  To take one piece of the latter and declare the OSR as hidebound and facile is manifestly foolish.

Quote from: Kellri;341529It's nice to see the Flaming Princess reviewed by someone other than his good buddy Geoffrey McKinney.

See, Pundit, the OSR can't be a 'unified movement.'  It's full of warring camps!

Hey, I wrote a Dungeon Room for GDF #3, am I part of the OSR now or what?