I have no comment on this, ...however leave this link for your review...
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20475730/smith-v-gen-con-king-county-superior-court-21-2-01684-3.pdf (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20475730/smith-v-gen-con-king-county-superior-court-21-2-01684-3.pdf)
huh? So some of the heads of GenCon singled out Zak in their comment on whos banned? Seems they want to expand on that not so little incident of removing him from mention in the core 5e books as a consultant (and then the other consultants, just to be sure I guess.)
Does seem a bit off kilter to single him out for mention as if every GenCon attende was worried or at risk. WTF?
Good, I hope they suffer financially to the greatest extent possible. If institutions or "platforms" are forced to think twice before taking harmful actions against "cancelees" in the pursuit of social signaling, everyone will be better off.
Quote from: Mjollnir on March 02, 2021, 02:59:20 AM
Good, I hope they suffer financially to the greatest extent possible. If institutions or "platforms" are forced to think twice before taking harmful actions against "cancelees" in the pursuit of social signaling, everyone will be better off.
This. Absolutely.
The suit claims:
13. For consultants, developers, and producers of RPG games to succeed in that industry, they must attend Gen Con.
Is this an absolute truth? It seems to be a pillar that the case is built upon, and if shown to be false, the case could likely suffer a little. Not that this changes most the arguments of defamation.
I disagree with Zak's assertion that 'to succeed, a developer must attend GenCon'. Maybe that was true 20-30 years ago, but I'm not so sure today. If someone has some hard numbers on this I'd like to see them.
That being said, I am deeply amused at that quote from Adkison:
QuoteThere was due process, that's why it took us so long to come around. There were many people abused by Zak, the evidence was overwhelming. I don't need a court process to uninvite a abuser to my party.
He manages to contradict the hell out of himself, claiming 'due process' but that he doesn't need the courts?
Paragraphs 28-35 are the meat of Zak's argument. He's stating he has lost revenue and suffered financial damage from Adkison's ban.
I don't expect Zak to comment on this (and in fact I would prefer he did not, as I have stated that when the lawyers come out it's time to
shut the fuck up), at least not until the case is finished one way or the other.
Quote from: HappyDaze on March 02, 2021, 05:49:43 AM
The suit claims:
13. For consultants, developers, and producers of RPG games to succeed in that industry, they must attend Gen Con.
Is this an absolute truth? It seems to be a pillar that the case is built upon, and if shown to be false, the case could likely suffer a little. Not that this changes most the arguments of defamation.
As a former small publisher and working with others I can say that GenCon was up till I was no longer able to attend, and according to others, up till fairly recently at least... still one of the bit cons to go to to tout your game or yourself. That and Origins till that con started acting weird. Cons in general are a great place to do alot of things you cant normally, or at least easily, as a publisher, designer, etc. And one big one, up till the plague, being meeting people face to face and pitching whatever.
I would though say Zak is putting too much emphasis on being able to attend GenCon as vital. Especially with the current plague situation putting a damper on cons, or ending them totally in many areas.
I'd more say GenCon is the biggest and most important of the gaming cons and being banned from it denies access to those resources.
If WOTC also tried to leverage banning him from say Origins then he'd really have some ammo against them. And he should be keeping an eye on other cons to see if they have been trying to do exactly that.
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 01, 2021, 11:25:49 PM
I have no comment on this, ...however leave this link for your review...
Good for Zak! This sort of thing is good for everyone else that gets targeted online and experiences real world repercussions.
Gencon probably should have just stuck to their original system of anonymous banning instead of going for Virtue Signal brownie points.
How is a known wife beater suing Gencon for not allowing him to attend because he poses a threat to attendees? #believeallwomen
A con has every right to ban people for whatever reason, real or imagined, but yes, going and trumpeting about it on the Internet is extremely unwise. It would be different if he was being banned for something that happened at the con, with video and a bunch of witnesses, because then he wouldn't have ammo to claim that the con management was libeling him with false accusations. They should have kept their mouths shut.
Quote from: Valatar on March 02, 2021, 03:45:35 PM
A con has every right to ban people for whatever reason, real or imagined, but yes, going and trumpeting about it on the Internet is extremely unwise. It would be different if he was being banned for something that happened at the con, with video and a bunch of witnesses, because then he wouldn't have ammo to claim that the con management was libeling him with false accusations. They should have kept their mouths shut.
If they kept their mouth shut, they wouldn't get the virtue signaling points for banning a badperson. Now you know their intent.
Best of luck, Zak!
Quote from: GameDaddy on March 01, 2021, 11:25:49 PM
I have no comment on this, ...however leave this link for your review...
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20475730/smith-v-gen-con-king-county-superior-court-21-2-01684-3.pdf (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/20475730/smith-v-gen-con-king-county-superior-court-21-2-01684-3.pdf)
This warms my heart to see. Hope GenCon dies a nasty death.
Quote from: Brad on March 02, 2021, 03:15:11 PM
How is a known wife beater suing Gencon for not allowing him to attend because he poses a threat to attendees? #believeallwomen
What about real threats like Drump?
Please tell me at least he has been banned.
Quote from: Brad on March 02, 2021, 03:15:11 PM
How is a known wife beater suing Gencon for not allowing him to attend because he poses a threat to attendees? #believeallwomen
No one, not one single person, is afraid Zak is going to beat them up in public at Gencon. This "I don't feel safe" bs is just a crybully tactic that people use because they know people in positions of authority (petty though those positions may be) will act on it.
Quote from: Shasarak on March 02, 2021, 04:42:12 PM
What about real threats like Drump?
Please tell me at least he has been banned.
I would not doubt Gencion banned Trump from attending after the MSM branded him a Nazi rapist. And by not doubt I am not being hyperbolic...they have SJW brownie points to get.
Quote from: Mjollnir on March 02, 2021, 06:28:12 PM
No one, not one single person, is afraid Zak is going to beat them up in public at Gencon. This "I don't feel safe" bs is just a crybully tactic that people use because they know people in positions of authority (petty though those positions may be) will act on it.
Yeah, I was just hoping to trigger that jackass because when he was in bed with these retards he had no issue with them doing it to people he hated. Eventually everyone is an enemy of the Marxists. Also, I doubt Zak could actually beat anyone up, anyway, so there's that.
Serious question: does anyone have the number of LEGITIMATE assaults that have ever taken place at Gencon? I mean actual punches thrown, not "creepster looked at me" horseshit. Besides that quartering dude I cannot think of any, and Gencon seemed to support his being assaulted, ironically enough.
This thread made me google "mandy muse's ass". I regret NOTHING!
8) 8)
I'm not a big fan of Zak. Especially after his response to me re. Demon City (considering I'm a backer).
That being said... HELL yeah! 8)
I'm delighted. I hope Gen Con get what they deserve. People need to know that you can't just go around talking shit (that could damage someone's livelihood) and banning them without due process AKA - proof.
As much as I hate what GenCon has become, I'm going to have to throw cold water on this. Sorry.
Zak's going to lose. He just is. He's not a protected class, therefore under US Law GenCon have every right to bar him from attendance. Furthermore, we do not want to create a precedent where someone can sue their way into a private gathering. Imagine if Pundit created his own Con and then Anita Sarkeesian bullied her way into getting a panel by threatening a lawsuit.
Don't come at me with headlines about Universities. Those are Publicly funded institutions. GenCon is not.
It's infuriating, but these people have won. The Wokesters run everything now. The only possible victory is to succeed in spite of them.
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
Imagine if Pundit created his own Con and then Anita Sarkeesian bullied her way into getting a panel by threatening a lawsuit.
A) she wouldn't have to bully her way in because she'd be allowed to have a panel if she wants one, and
B) she'd never do it because she wouldn't be given the protection she's used to at other cons and would have to hear people say "mean things" to and about her.
Personally I think it'd be highly amusing for a Libertarian minded Con to exist and expect grown ups to have a "sticks and stones" attitude.
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
As much as I hate what GenCon has become, I'm going to have to throw cold water on this. Sorry.
But its more then just about access to the venue per se. If it was just on that alone, then it would be very hard to sue a private company I would assume? Like the way drivthru can ban certain people's material, and you can't really do anything about it. Despite them having a near monopoly.
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
As much as I hate what GenCon has become, I'm going to have to throw cold water on this. Sorry.
Zak's going to lose. He just is. He's not a protected class, therefore under US Law GenCon have every right to bar him from attendance. Furthermore, we do not want to create a precedent where someone can sue their way into a private gathering. Imagine if Pundit created his own Con and then Anita Sarkeesian bullied her way into getting a panel by threatening a lawsuit.
Don't come at me with headlines about Universities. Those are Publicly funded institutions. GenCon is not.
It's infuriating, but these people have won. The Wokesters run everything now. The only possible victory is to succeed in spite of them.
A couple years ago I would've agreed. But Nick Sandmann has already gotten settlements from two of the defendants in his lawsuit (WaPo and CNN). The rest of his lawsuit continues to grind through the courts.
'Protected class' means sweet fuck-all as far as defamation goes. There are really only two ironclad defenses: one is the truth, and the other is basically 'this person's character is so bad that it's impossible to defame them further'. Well, three, but there are limits to how much shit you can talk about public figures.
If GenCon had simply barred him without or at least with minimal comment, they'd have been in the clear. But by chasing woke points and virtue signaling, they've opened themselves up to this.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 03, 2021, 10:33:40 AM
If GenCon had simply barred him without or at least with minimal comment, they'd have been in the clear. But by chasing woke points and virtue signaling, they've opened themselves up to this.
Exactly!
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
As much as I hate what GenCon has become, I'm going to have to throw cold water on this. Sorry.
Zak's going to lose. He just is. He's not a protected class, therefore under US Law GenCon have every right to bar him from attendance. Furthermore, we do not want to create a precedent where someone can sue their way into a private gathering. Imagine if Pundit created his own Con and then Anita Sarkeesian bullied her way into getting a panel by threatening a lawsuit.
If you read the complaint, he's suing primarily for the public statements they made around the ban, not the ban itself. They have the right to bar him from attendance, they do not have the right to libel him on very public platforms to an audience primarily made up of his clients and customers.
Quote from: Mjollnir on March 02, 2021, 06:28:12 PM
Quote from: Brad on March 02, 2021, 03:15:11 PM
How is a known wife beater suing Gencon for not allowing him to attend because he poses a threat to attendees? #believeallwomen
No one, not one single person, is afraid Zak is going to beat them up in public at Gencon. This "I don't feel safe" bs is just a crybully tactic that people use because they know people in positions of authority (petty though those positions may be) will act on it.
I agree.
In my very first job, I worked security at a Sears (in the 80s). One of our cash register employees went insane. That's not a phrase I am using lightly - she went nuts. She was complaining to security that we were aiming invisible lasers at her head to read her thoughts, and making her hear voices.
Back then, Sears had no decent HR department to deal with this sort of thing, or at least my location didn't. In security we all wanted her gone because we thought she was gong to say something like that to customers, and was a total lose canon.
But we also knew she was harmless, physically speaking. She wouldn't hurt a fly. She just had a serious mental disease.
So one day she said something which was sexually harassing in nature to me, yelling at me something like "You know you want a piece of this ass. That's why you keep spying on me, because you want a piece of this ass. Well come on! You're a little young for me but I'll fuck you."
It was laughable, and I was not intimidated by it at all. But believe it or not, that alone was STILL probably not enough to get her fired at the time from Sears. Because sexual harassment against a man was not something they knew how to deal with.
But that was the opportunity to get rid of her for the department. So, when I reported it I told HR I felt afraid and was concerned she might attack me or others.
And those were the magic words, the next day she was put on indefinite leave.
Yes. Nobody thinks Zak is going to harm anyone. They just are using it as an excuse to not deal with the other issues they have with him which are not cleanly about any convention rules but are purely about public relations.
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
As much as I hate what GenCon has become, I'm going to have to throw cold water on this. Sorry.
Zak's going to lose. He just is. He's not a protected class, therefore under US Law GenCon have every right to bar him from attendance.
I think it will go the same way. But they might lose on lesser counts instead of the main venue denial angle.
Same as the folks making a certain adult RPG could not likely win against BGG for covertly censoring them. But they might win on counts of defamation or something else.
I won't pretend to understand the vagaries of the legal system nor will I speculate on outcome, but I find the situation interesting none the less.
What we are seeing is people getting fed up with WOTCs incessant stupid and starting to fight back. This is now the 3rd lawsuit against them, or involving them in the last year or so that I can recall.
Quote from: Omega on March 04, 2021, 05:21:57 AM
What we are seeing is people getting fed up with WOTCs incessant stupid and starting to fight back. This is now the 3rd lawsuit against them, or involving them in the last year or so that I can recall.
Peter Adkison & Gencon totally separate from WoTC for what, 20 years now?
Quote from: Peter D. Adkison on March 04, 2021, 11:43:20 AM
...To clarify, I want to state that Zak S has been banned from Gen Con and that we flat-out don't tolerate harassers or abusers in our community or at our convention. ...
Sincerely,
Peter D. Adkison
Co-owner of Gen Con and Chairperson of the Board
Hilarious.
This is the same guy who openly admitted to sleeping with Female employee's while he ran Wizards of the Coast:
Towards the end of the first article linked:
https://www.salon.com/2001/03/23/wizards/
https://www.salon.com/2001/03/26/wizards_part2/
You can't make this stuff up.
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2021, 11:43:20 AMPeter Adkison & Gencon totally separate from WoTC for what, 20 years now?
That is the claim but they certainly keep dancing to WOTCs tune and carrying out their will alot.
Quote from: Torque2100 on March 03, 2021, 09:40:00 AM
Imagine if Pundit created his own Con and then Anita Sarkeesian bullied her way into getting a panel by threatening a lawsuit.
Sell the tickets for her panel and it will be totally worth it ;D
Quote from: Omega on March 05, 2021, 01:20:53 AM
Quote from: S'mon on March 04, 2021, 11:43:20 AMPeter Adkison & Gencon totally separate from WoTC for what, 20 years now?
That is the claim but they certainly keep dancing to WOTCs tune and carrying out their will alot.
And by "claim" you mean "two totally separate companies one of which doesn't even attend GenCon anymore"? Dude, just admit when you're wrong or misunderstand something.
I don't know shit, but I find a couple of things interesting. Ignoring the venue denial, this gets to the libel laws in the US, doesn't it? Which I know nothing about but are pretty hard to get results from? They stated he was an abuser and/or harasser, none of which has been legally proven? Which, as a leading voice in the community, could have an impact on his ability to do business? Different language used might have put them in a better position. And, I wonder if there's a different standard for some rando saying it and some company/leading publication/organization in your field saying it? US libel laws are pretty liberal.
Then again, dudes got enough money that he can say whatever he wants and suck up the damages portion. Why does he care about the outcome?
Quote from: bryce0lynch on March 05, 2021, 09:40:02 AM
I don't know shit, but I find a couple of things interesting. Ignoring the venue denial, this gets to the libel laws in the US, doesn't it? Which I know nothing about but are pretty hard to get results from? They stated he was an abuser and/or harasser, none of which has been legally proven? Which, as a leading voice in the community, could have an impact on his ability to do business? Different language used might have put them in a better position. And, I wonder if there's a different standard for some rando saying it and some company/leading publication/organization in your field saying it? US libel laws are pretty liberal.
Then again, dudes got enough money that he can say whatever he wants and suck up the damages portion. Why does he care about the outcome?
Sort of. Defamation law, as I recall (and I am NOT a lawyer, this is based on watching a LOT of slapfights), requires the plaintiff to prove that the defendant did so maliciously, and stated such things as fact, not opinion.
U.S. defamation law is actually pretty strict, compared to, say, the UK. In fact, the UK's defamation and libel laws used to be a selling point for court shopping, to the point where the U.S. passed a law that straight-up blocked enforcement of verdicts from other national jurisdictions unless they passed U.S. libel law requirements (the SPEECH act, I think it was). People were filing in the UK for defamation and trying to get their verdicts enforced here.
The really interesting angle is the pushback against the press, which has enjoyed -- up until recently -- a lot more protection and deference (probably more than it deserves). Hence why I've kept one eye on the Sandmann case.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 05, 2021, 09:51:45 AM
The really interesting angle is the pushback against the press, which has enjoyed -- up until recently -- a lot more protection and deference (probably more than it deserves). Hence why I've kept one eye on the Sandmann case.
One of the problems is the mainstream press seems to think they're a protected class, but that alternative news sources are not. That's bullshit, freedom of the press should apply to all news sources. None of the revolutionary-era pamphleteers the Founding Fathers were familiar with had official press passes, after all.
The weird thing about this is companies used to be so circumspect when it came to talking about people they censured. For instance, if an employee was fired and a potential future employer called to check, the most they'd usually get was "we can verify they were employed here between these dates...". Now, they seem to compelled to say why. And it's not just a neutral "after investigation we found the defendant guilty of the following charges..." style pronouncements, these are all moral judgments. Which is why they're getting in trouble, and the multiple quotes from Adkison are a perfect example.
Quote from: bryce0lynch on March 05, 2021, 09:40:02 AM
And by "claim" you mean "two totally separate companies one of which doesn't even attend GenCon anymore"? Dude, just admit when you're wrong or misunderstand something.
Then for a company that "doesnt attend GenCon anymore" they sure can dictate to that con who to ban and not. Zak is not the first. Though it is debatable if WOTC had an active hand in this Zak issue or not. But would not surprise me at all considering they have done it before.
Quote from: Omega on March 04, 2021, 05:21:57 AM
What we are seeing is people getting fed up with WOTCs incessant stupid and starting to fight back. This is now the 3rd lawsuit against them, or involving them in the last year or so that I can recall.
WTF are you smoking? This topic has nothing to do with WOTC. WOTC doesn't even attend GenCon anymore and hasn't for years. They don't own GenCon, in any way.
Quote from: Omega on March 05, 2021, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: bryce0lynch on March 05, 2021, 09:40:02 AM
And by "claim" you mean "two totally separate companies one of which doesn't even attend GenCon anymore"? Dude, just admit when you're wrong or misunderstand something.
Then for a company that "doesnt attend GenCon anymore" they sure can dictate to that con who to ban and not. Zak is not the first. Though it is debatable if WOTC had an active hand in this Zak issue or not. But would not surprise me at all considering they have done it before.
WOTC didn't dictate to GenCon anything. They have literally nothing to do with this topic in any way. WOTC switched to a different convention (PAX) ages ago. How the fuck do you not know this?
No one ever let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy.
Quote from: Bunch on March 05, 2021, 05:21:50 PM
No one ever let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy.
Never let the truth get in the way of willful ignorance I guess.
WOTC has gotten GenCon to ban people before. Do you think Zak would have been singled out so loudly, if at all, if WOTC hadn't erased him from the core books and declared him a bad person on their own site?
Cite or shut the fuck up.
Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2021, 03:27:28 AM
Quote from: Bunch on March 05, 2021, 05:21:50 PM
No one ever let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy.
Never let the truth get in the way of willful ignorance I guess.
WOTC has gotten GenCon to ban people before. Do you think Zak would have been singled out so loudly, if at all, if WOTC hadn't erased him from the core books and declared him a bad person on their own site?
You are being an idiot. WOTC and GenCon don't talk to each other anymore and have not for years. WOTC left Gencon years ago for PAX, Winter Fantasy, and even Gamehole and Garycon. Yes, that's right, WOTC will go to small cons and large cons, but they won't go to GenCon. They won't attend GenCon anymore. And you can bet GenCon is pissed at them for that because that was a huge amount of revenue they lost.
Before you continue with your idiocy, ask yourself for a moment WHY YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT? It's not new news. It's rather old news. We're not talking something recent, this has been for many years now.
Ask yourself why you still thought WOTC was influencing a convention which they literally swore off and won't have anything to do with?
Whatever weird vendetta you have with WOTC, justified or not, you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not linked to WOTC on this one. There is no conspiracy there. GenCon didn't base any decision on what WOTC thinks - I suspect they hate WOTC in fact. They surely are not communicating with each other anymore these days.
Have you considered the possibility two different and unrelated companies can be pissed at Zak S. simultaneously and genuinely unrelated to each other? Or does it HAVE to be some conspiracy and one doing the bidding of the other for...reasons?
Quote from: Mistwell on March 06, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
fap fap fap
Nice to see that some things never change.....Mistwell White Knighting for WotC is a fixed star in the TheRPGSite night sky.....
I think I can safely say that if all parties involved spontaneously combusted, I would break out the marshmallows, and that little of value - if anything - would be lost.
If this placed used Xenforo I could like this without having to post.
Quote from: Mistwell on March 03, 2021, 04:51:29 PM
In my very first job, I worked security at a Sears (in the 80s). One of our cash register employees went insane. That's not a phrase I am using lightly - she went nuts. She was complaining to security that we were aiming invisible lasers at her head to read her thoughts, and making her hear voices.
Back then, Sears had no decent HR department to deal with this sort of thing, or at least my location didn't. In security we all wanted her gone because we thought she was gong to say something like that to customers, and was a total lose canon.
But we also knew she was harmless, physically speaking. She wouldn't hurt a fly. She just had a serious mental disease.
So one day she said something which was sexually harassing in nature to me, yelling at me something like "You know you want a piece of this ass. That's why you keep spying on me, because you want a piece of this ass. Well come on! You're a little young for me but I'll fuck you."
It was laughable, and I was not intimidated by it at all. But believe it or not, that alone was STILL probably not enough to get her fired at the time from Sears. Because sexual harassment against a man was not something they knew how to deal with.
But that was the opportunity to get rid of her for the department. So, when I reported it I told HR I felt afraid and was concerned she might attack me or others.
And those were the magic words, the next day she was put on indefinite leave.
I just want to point out that we now live in a world of weaponized high school rumors, and had the situation you described happened today she could have caused considerable harm to everyone around her.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on March 08, 2021, 07:33:56 PM
I think I can safely say that if all parties involved spontaneously combusted, I would break out the marshmallows, and that little of value - if anything - would be lost.
+1
It's like watching a black widow and a scorpion fight to the death. It doesn't matter who wins, you just want to drop a brick on the whole affair.
I have no love for Zak S, but I hope he fucking bankrupts Gencon and every person involved.
QuoteIt's like watching a black widow and a scorpion fight to the death. It doesn't matter who wins, you just want to drop a brick on the whole affair.
That's just nasty entomophoby - poisonous arthropodes are cool.
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 08:09:44 PM
QuoteIt's like watching a black widow and a scorpion fight to the death. It doesn't matter who wins, you just want to drop a brick on the whole affair.
That's just nasty entomophoby - poisonous arthropodes are cool.
They are cool, but as someone who's had the misfortune to get tagged by both of them I'd rather admire them from a hell of a distance.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 06:54:32 PM
I have no love for Zak S, but I hope he fucking bankrupts Gencon and every person involved.
Is this generalized disgust for the wokeness infesting the hobby, or based on something specific/personal?
(I'm not disagreeing in the slightest. Just curious is all.)
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 08:09:44 PM
QuoteIt's like watching a black widow and a scorpion fight to the death. It doesn't matter who wins, you just want to drop a brick on the whole affair.
That's just nasty entomophoby - poisonous arthropodes are cool.
I figured I should post before that spider gets canceled. ;-)
Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on March 10, 2021, 08:09:44 PM
QuoteIt's like watching a black widow and a scorpion fight to the death. It doesn't matter who wins, you just want to drop a brick on the whole affair.
That's just nasty entomophoby - poisonous arthropodes are cool.
I respect that! I'm a firm "cup and release" spider person.
But black widows get insta-smashed. There's some regret, yes, but insta-smash.
The main complaint is defamation. GenCon said things that aren't true, so they're getting sued.
Contrary to popular belief or assumption, none of my lawyers (even when asked) have said "Shut the fuck up"--my story about the harassment I've dealt with has been consistent all along on every platform, the legal process is going to take a long time, and I don't have anything to hide. So I don't really have a reason to be quiet.
As for all the reasons online legal geniuses have come up with for why they think I'll lose: Guys, we've been on these cases for over two years at this point. That thing you thought of that supposedly torpedoes my case? We thought of that. Like on the first week. You sue a company the size of GenCon you kinda review the pitfalls first.
A lot of people who talk online are not really invested in whether what they say is true--and if they say something and it turns out to be bullshit they;re like "I don't care, I'm an anonymous IT guy in Skokie". But if you do care: ask a lawyer, maybe even one licensed in Washington, before typing things.
Quote from: Zak S on March 11, 2021, 08:10:48 PM
The main complaint is defamation. GenCon said things that aren't true, so they're getting sued.
Contrary to popular belief or assumption, none of my lawyers (even when asked) have said "Shut the fuck up"--my story about the harassment I've dealt with has been consistent all along on every platform, the legal process is going to take a long time, and I don't have anything to hide. So I don't really have a reason to be quiet.
As for all the reasons online legal geniuses have come up with for why they think I'll lose: Guys, we've been on these cases for over two years at this point. That thing you thought of that supposedly torpedoes my case? We thought of that. Like on the first week. You sue a company the size of GenCon you kinda review the pitfalls first.
A lot of people who talk online are not really invested in whether what they say is true--and if they say something and it turns out to be bullshit they;re like "I don't care, I'm an anonymous IT guy in Skokie". But if you do care: ask a lawyer, maybe even one licensed in Washington, before typing things.
Speaking as someone who is not a lawyer but witnessed the unintentional hilarity of several people who tried to argue their case in the court of public opinion: when the legal actions start, the time for shit-talking is done. I've always held the opinion that people who try to run their gobs on Twatter about their legal fight are fools. Let the legal motions do the talking. And then teabag them viciously when you win.
Murum aries attigit.
since people on the RPG Internet have other problems I also have to deal with that's not actually a rational strategy.
Also:I'll probably be in court until I die in one case or another, so that's also another reason it's not viable to just not fact-check.
Quote from: KingCheops on March 03, 2021, 10:05:27 AMPersonally I think it'd be highly amusing for a Libertarian minded Con to exist and expect grown ups to have a "sticks and stones" attitude.
That was pretty much every con about 20 years ago. Most certainly 30 years ago.
Quote from: Zak S on March 11, 2021, 08:10:48 PM
The main complaint is defamation. GenCon said things that aren't true, so they're getting sued.
Good. Kick their teeth through their assholes.
Quote from: Zak S on March 11, 2021, 09:43:58 PM
since people on the RPG Internet don't consider court results meaningful information that's not actually a rational strategy.
Also:I'll probably be in court until I die in one case or another, so that's also another reason it's not viable to just not fact-check.
That's their problem, not yours. Unless, of course, they want to join the lawsuit as a defendant.
Focus on winning.
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 12, 2021, 05:06:04 AM
Quote from: Zak S on March 11, 2021, 08:10:48 PM
The main complaint is defamation. GenCon said things that aren't true, so they're getting sued.
Good. Kick their teeth through their assholes.
Agreed. GenCon
delenda est.
I'm surprised TBP has not heard of this and begun accusing Zak of being a bad person for daring to not bend the knee.
Well, when people spread lies or unsubstantiated rumors about you, and thus it affects your career, reputation and earning potential. Then they deserve a big kick in the teeth through the justice system.
Quote from: sureshot on March 12, 2021, 09:29:16 AM
I'm surprised TBP has not heard of this and begun accusing Zak of being a bad person for daring to not bend the knee.
I'm pretty certain Zak is not allowed to be mentioned at TBP, although they might make an exception for some Two Minute Hate.
Emmanuel Goldstein, eat your heart out.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 08:19:32 AM
That's their problem, not yours. Unless, of course, they want to join the lawsuit as a defendant.
Focus on winning.
You don't grasp the situation: The problem is that people spread misnformation about a variety of things. Lots of people, not just GenCon. The problem has always been that it's the biggest problem in the RPG sphere.
Suing Gen Con will stop GenCon from doing it and expose them but it doesn't help with many of the other people.
Saying " don't address that problem until your lawsuits are done" is the same as saying " don't ever address that problem".
It's like saying "If you work at Domino's, focus on delivering
one pizza". For one: there are a lot of other pizzas to deliver, for two, it just doesn't take that much "focus" to deliver one pizza.
Just because the only way I've found to deal with GenCon's misinformation problem is to sue them does not mean they're the only problem or that that is the only way to solve the problem for all the people causing it.
Quote from: sureshot on March 12, 2021, 09:29:16 AM
I'm surprised TBP has not heard of this and begun accusing Zak of being a bad person for daring to not bend the knee.
Since I successfully sued Ettin, tbp behaves differently.
However there are moderators and exmoderators are still on Twitter being part of the problem.
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 12:15:48 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 08:19:32 AM
That's their problem, not yours. Unless, of course, they want to join the lawsuit as a defendant.
Focus on winning.
You don't grasp the situation: The problem is that people spread misnformation. Lots of people, not just GenCon. The problem has always been that it's the biggest problem in the RPG sphere.
Suing Gen Con will stop GenCon from doing it and expose them as part of the problem but it doesn't help with all the other people.
Saying " don't address that problem until your lawsuits are done" is the same as saying " don't ever address that problem".
It's like saying "If you work at Domino's, focus on delivering one pizza". For one: there are a lot of other pizzas to deliver, for two, it just doesn't take that much "focus" to deliver one pizza.
Just because the only way I've found to deal with GenCon's misinformation problem is to sue them does not mean they're the only problem or that that is the only way to solve the problem for all the people causing it.
You plan to spend the rest of your life fighting misinformation? Are you made of money, Zak? Can you spring for lunch? :)
Mind you, I'm fully on board with curbstomping GenCon simply because they enjoy that large footprint in gaming. But if it's as you say, and legal results will not convince some people, what makes you think a judgement against GenCon will get them to rethink their stance?
I can't help but think a policy of endless lawsuits will have diminishing returns.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
You plan to spend the rest of your life fighting misinformation?
Anyone who works in RPGs has already made that decision. That's basically the job now, for everyone. Even if they don't want it.
Quote
I can't help but think a policy of endless lawsuits will have diminishing returns.
It seems like you can't remember the conversation you're having. Let's review:
You said "Don't attempt to deal with misinformation via online comments, concentrate on suing people"
I said "If my goal is addressing misinformation, I have to sue people and also simultaneously do other things besides lawsuits."
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
You plan to spend the rest of your life fighting misinformation?
Anyone who works in RPGs has already made that decision. That's basically the job now, for everyone. Even if they don't want it.
Quote
I can't help but think a policy of endless lawsuits will have diminishing returns.
It seems like you can't remember the conversation you're having. Let's review:
You said "Don't attempt to deal with misinformation via online comments, concentrate on suing people"
I said "If my goal is addressing misinformation, I have to sue people and also simultaneously do other things besides lawsuits."
Don't misquote me, Zak. I'm trying to be sympathetic here.
My advice has been: do not try your case in the court of public opinion. Why? Because commentary there can get out of hand and people can and have made admissions against interest which wind up in the very case they're pursuing.
There's a reason why many corporations refuse to comment on ongoing legal actions, after all.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:40:06 PM
My advice has been: do not try your case in the court of public opinion.
Again, you're not understanding the situation. You're just repeating a stock phrase and Lawyer advice 101.
The situation is not "GenCon has done wrong and that needs to be fixed, but nobody else has done wrong, only GenCon. So that is the only thing Zak should address in any way and the only important thing in the world for Zak is winning this one suit against GenCon.".
The situation is "GenCon has done wrong and that needs to be fixed and that is being addressed through a lawsuit with GenCon.
Also and in addition, dozens of other people have also done wrong in other, unrelated ways, and that also needs to be fixed, in some cases via public comment, which, in those cases, may be the more appropriate instrument."
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 01:31:58 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
You plan to spend the rest of your life fighting misinformation?
Anyone who works in RPGs has already made that decision. That's basically the job now, for everyone. Even if they don't want it.
Quote
I can't help but think a policy of endless lawsuits will have diminishing returns.
It seems like you can't remember the conversation you're having. Let's review:
You said "Don't attempt to deal with misinformation via online comments, concentrate on suing people"
I said "If my goal is addressing misinformation, I have to sue people and also simultaneously do other things besides lawsuits."
Don't misquote me, Zak. I'm trying to be sympathetic here.
My advice has been: do not try your case in the court of public opinion. Why? Because commentary there can get out of hand and people can and have made admissions against interest which wind up in the very case they're pursuing.
There's a reason why many corporations refuse to comment on ongoing legal actions, after all.
Greetings!
My friend, just say "Good Luck" and walk away.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 01:47:58 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:40:06 PM
My advice has been: do not try your case in the court of public opinion.
Again, you're not understanding the situation. You're just repeating a stock phrase and Lawyer advice 101.
The situation is not "GenCon has done wrong and that needs to be fixed, but nobody else has done wrong, only GenCon. So that is the only thing Zak should address in any way and the only important thing in the world for Zak is winning this one suit against GenCon.".
The situation is "GenCon has done wrong and that needs to be fixed and that is being addressed through a lawsuit with GenCon. Also and in addition, dozens of other people have also done wrong and that also needs to be fixed, in some cases via public comment, which, in those cases, may be the more appropriate instrument."
Then by all means, sue the living fuck out of them. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't.
I quote my earlier post:
QuoteThat's their problem, not yours. Unless, of course, they want to join the lawsuit as a defendant.
Focus on winning.
I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as 'Zak should focus on GenCon'. Well, I would note that GenCon probably has deeper pockets than Generic Woketard #54, so you might have more luck extracting amonetary judgement from the former. But I suspect that's not what you're after. As you noted, you did force Ettin to apologize and retract his comments.
I don't expect you to explain your legal strategy, but I wonder: how many of the subpoenas and suits you've had people served with had the offer of 'make a public apology and this goes away'?
In closing: lol, calm down.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 12, 2021, 01:56:24 PM
I quote my earlier post:
QuoteThat's their problem, not yours. Unless, of course, they want to join the lawsuit as a defendant.
Focus on winning.
I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as 'Zak should focus on GenCon'. Well, I would note that GenCon probably has deeper pockets than Generic Woketard #54, so you might have more luck extracting amonetary judgement from the former. But I suspect that's not what you're after. As you noted, you did force Ettin to apologize and retract his comments.
He also paid a cash settlement. And he acts very differently now.
In general, the thing of very much wanting to give condescending advice/comment and so assuming my goals and the legal details of my situation fit the scenario that would make that condescending advice/comment warranted isn't a good place to start.
I think it's great when celebrities are so happy to reach out to and interact with their adoring fans. :D
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 01:47:58 PM Also and in addition, dozens of other people have also done wrong in other, unrelated ways, and that also needs to be fixed, in some cases via public comment, which, in those cases, may be the more appropriate instrument."
Which RPG-related forums even allow you to defend yourself? I've had posts deleted just for mentioning you.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 12, 2021, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: Zak S on March 12, 2021, 01:47:58 PM Also and in addition, dozens of other people have also done wrong in other, unrelated ways, and that also needs to be fixed, in some cases via public comment, which, in those cases, may be the more appropriate instrument."
Which RPG-related forums even allow you to defend yourself? I've had posts deleted just for mentioning you.
Not a lot. But forums are not the only vector of information.
Consider the interaction you're describing:
-You somehow got accurate information somewhere
-You posted it on a forum where I'm (presumably) banned
-Someone had to have read it.
-You have a record (presumably) of it being erased.
-You're now talking about that event on a forum.
(A forum where, for whatever reason, it occurred to you to ask a question and one where you're getting an answer)
That's actually a lot of information getting moved around, the fact that you didn't get to post what you said sucks, but it's hardly the only thing that happened there.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 10, 2021, 06:54:32 PM
I have no love for Zak S, but I hope he fucking bankrupts Gencon and every person involved.
Quote from: RandyB on March 12, 2021, 09:20:39 AM
... Agreed. GenCon Delenda Est.
I Third these sentiments.
Make the Rubble Bounce.