Alright.

I've got a copy of the Warhammer FRP Second edition.
Which are the best, must-have supplements for this edition of the game, in your opinion?

Quote from: Benoist;321586Alright.

I've got a copy of the Warhammer FRP Second edition.
Which are the best, must-have supplements for this edition of the game, in your opinion?

In descending order, more or less...

* Bestiary is basically a must-have unless you plan to skip all combat.
* Tome of Corruption is a broad-based and hugely useful DM toolkit with some incredible fluff.  You get the gamut of Chaos foes.
* Tome of Salvation is brilliant.  It helps priests out a lot.
* Realms of Sorcery is good if you have a Wizard in your party.  Otherwise, you may never use it.  Still, I'd recommend it.

Those are the "crunchiest" books and IMO they'll save you the most time in prep.

Other books...

* Sigmar's Heirs if you plan on running a game in the Empire.  It's actually essential if you are, IMO.  If you're not, skip it - it's almost entirely fluff.
* Children of the Horned Rat is a brilliant and awesome book in all respects, but not quite as broad as the Tome of Corruption.  Still, it's awesome if you plan to use Skaven.
* I have little use for the Brettonia, Border Princes, and Kislev sourcebooks - but YMMV.  If you want to run a game there, get them.  If you don't, you can skip it.  Border Princes has some awesome random generation tables, but whether or not it's worth the price of admission is up to you.
* I don't have much need for the Old World Armory, but I know others will disagree.  I was fine with the equipment in the corebook.
* If you can hunt them down, the "adventure path" is pretty awesome.  Particularly the later sections.  Also, they double as sourcebooks for their respective cities.
* IMO, the Vampire book is meh.

...that's all I can think of at the moment.

-O

Quote from: obryn;321609...that's all I can think of at the moment.

-O

It's already awesome feedback. Thanks, O.

Tome of Corruption is awesome, if you want to play a Heavy-Metal game in the North, as well as for dozens of other reasons. Its probably the best "Chaos" book out there, and I wasn't expecting much from it, I figured it would be far too cheesy, but it wasn't, it was brilliant.

The Bestiary and Realms of Sorcery are quite useful, but I would not say either is strictly essential. Both are quite good.
The Armory is good too.

Renegade Crowns is absolutely AWESOME, if you want to play outside of the Empire. It is the one "non-empire" book (aside from the material on the north in Tome of Corruption) that was truly well done. Its basically if you want to do dark and gritty fantasy roleplaying in the Balkans.

The Liber Fanatica books were free pdfs, I don't know if you can get them, but I would add them to the "must have" list, they are really great, and the price is right.

I would NOT recommend sigmar's heirs, the brettonia books, children of the horned rat, or night's dark master (unless you were really really into skaven or vampires in the case of the last two).
The Kislev book was more than a little disappointing too.
I never saw the Ten Thousand Thrones.

The Paths of the Damned are the finest adventure series ever made for WFRP. They are also the sourcebooks for Middenheim (ashes of middenheim), Altdorf (Spires of Altdorf) and Nuln (forges of nuln). They're spectacular. Terror in Talabheim isn't bad either, but doesn't quite reach that level.

Karak Azgal is an awesome concept (the Dungeon delve, done WFRP style) but is sadly incomplete in my opinion.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;321632The Paths of the Damned are the finest adventure series ever made for WFRP. They are also the sourcebooks for Middenheim (ashes of middenheim), Altdorf (Spires of Altdorf) and Nuln (forges of nuln). They're spectacular. Terror in Talabheim isn't bad either, but doesn't quite reach that level.
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Are you saying this just to be controversial? I'm sure you had success running them but you would need to modify them to make them serviceable. For instance the bad guys are just a wee bit cartoonish and blatantly obvious, the modules suffer from a dose of Deus Ex Machina at times and some rely on the players talking to the right people to move the plot.

I think the Thousand Thrones is written better, has a variety of fun situations and plots as well as some well written NPC's to sink your teeth into. I had lots of fun with the captain of the black ravens in that monastery of Morr. It also has the benefit of being commonly available at your FLGS, unless your picking up PDF's.

Again, I haven't seen the THousand Thrones (yet), so I can't comment on it. But I absolutely disagree with your take on the Paths of the Damned. There was nothing "cartoonish" about the bad guys, in my games the players had no clue who the real bad guy was until the right moment for it to be revealed, the adventures were the perfect proportional mix of investigating (a little) and ass-kicking (a lot). And there's no Deux Ex Machina I saw in the game.

You clearly are looking at something other than Paths of the Damned. Or (noticing that your sig says you're "playing" Ashes of Middenheim) its your GM that's an idiot.  Either that, or you're just one of the WFRP "enemy within" Swine who's incensed that I would dare suggest that any adventure might actually beat the great Swine Orgy that is TEW.

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Just a note, for the record: debates as to the value of the supplements and their contents, just like the one you're starting now about the Paths of the Damned, is perfectly fine by me. It allows me to know more about the specifics of said products and what some people like/dislike about them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321788Again, I haven't seen the THousand Thrones (yet), so I can't comment on it. But I absolutely disagree with your take on the Paths of the Damned. There was nothing "cartoonish" about the bad guys, in my games the players had no clue who the real bad guy was until the right moment for it to be revealed, the adventures were the perfect proportional mix of investigating (a little) and ass-kicking (a lot). And there's no Deux Ex Machina I saw in the game.

You clearly are looking at something other than Paths of the Damned. Or (noticing that your sig says you're "playing" Ashes of Middenheim) its your GM that's an idiot.  Either that, or you're just one of the WFRP "enemy within" Swine who's incensed that I would dare suggest that any adventure might actually beat the great Swine Orgy that is TEW.

And yes I am 'playing' Ashes of Middenheim. I play Gonzo Montoya the Tillean halfling soldier who carries a rifle but is more effective with his sling. My buddy Mark is playing an Ogre merc who has adopted the halfling as his own personal cook. We also have a squire, an initiate of Morr and the obligatory Troll Slayer in the party. We should be finishing Ashes of Middenheim next month.

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Spoilers ahoy - Regarding Deus Ex the party is chased into the herdstone by a horde of beastmen then cannot hope to defeat. After about 5 minutes raiding the place the party emerge to find the beastmen have conveniently vanished. Later the party are again mobbed by beastmen they cannot defeat only to be saved by witchhunters who butcher all an sundry with ease.

The opening is a dodgy too. The watch arrest you then ask you to investigate the crime you are accused of because they are short staffed.

From the beginning half of us figured this Ulric priest guy was a baddy. Cartoonish probably isn't the right word but he came across as a touch obvious, perhaps this was the GM. Maybe we play too much Cthulhu and Shadowrun. From there on we felt bad playing our suspicions out in game as we felt it would ruin the GM's running of the game. There was also the annoying conundrum 'As a players I am a suspicious bastard but would my character be as well?' We are tempted to keep the skull ourselves as it kicks so much arse but again the GM bought the adventure and I feel obliged to let him run it warts and all.

I'm enjoying Ashes of Middenheim. I enjoy playing all the wfrp scenarios including TEW. As long as I can swing a rusty axe in the old world I'm a happy camper. I just feel that the module is a cop out in a few areas. Nothing that can't be fixed with work from the GM.

And yes I am 'playing' Ashes of Middenheim. We should finish it next month if life doesn't get in the way. I play Gonzo Montoya a Tilean halfling, my Buddy Mark is playing an Ogre who has adopted the halfling as his personal cook. We also have a squire, an initiate of Morr and the obligatory Troll Slayer.

Quote from: Monkey Boy;321856Spoilers ahoy - Regarding Deus Ex the party is chased into the herdstone by a horde of beastmen then cannot hope to defeat.

What? You are led (in the adventure as published) to the herdstone by Father Odo, the blind priest who had a dark vision of the place.

No beastmen are involved (though the book says you can feel free to have some encounters with beastmen on the way if your players or the GM are keen for combat).

QuoteAfter about 5 minutes raiding the place the party emerge to find the beastmen have conveniently vanished.

Again, there were never supposed to be beastmen there. Once you get to the herdstone, there is a minotaur there, and he has a chance to call reinforcements, but they aren't more than a standard party should be able to handle in a fight. The book does state that out of sacred fear, the minotaur and company will not follow into the tomb if the PCs flee in there, but there's nothing that says (in the book as written) that they'll be gone when the PCs emerge.
Again, it sounds like you had a very crappy GM.

 

QuoteLater the party are again mobbed by beastmen they cannot defeat only to be saved by witchhunters who butcher all an sundry with ease.

The book as written states that this encounter (meant to introduce the witch hunters) should involve a party of beastmen (their exact number to be determined by the GM) meant to be more than the PCs should be able to handle on their own but not enough that the PCs should be wiped out in only a few rounds. And again, in the book as written, once the witch-hunters show up, combat simply continues until half the beastmen are dead, at which point they flee.
So again, according to the book, its totally possible that the PCs themselves have already done most of the work before the Witch-hunters arrive, and there's nothing to say the PCs can't continue to fight side-by-side with the Witch-hunters (indeed, I'd assume they should).  It is meant to emphasize how awesome the high-level witchhunters are, but its hardly a deus ex machina or a scene where the PCs are reduced to mere cheerleaders or damsels-in-distress.
Again, it really really sounds like you had a crap GM.

QuoteThe opening is a dodgy too. The watch arrest you then ask you to investigate the crime you are accused of because they are short staffed.

Huh? That's not how the adventure begins according to my book. It sounds to me like your GM invented that as an alternative to having played the "Through the Drakwald" adventure in the basic WFRP book, which is actually the intro to the adventure. In the regular game, when you get to Middenheim, the watch commander asks to meet with you because of the encouter you had with the beastmen in that intro adventure. its true that later, the monk you met with (which I guess your party might not have met if you hadn't played that adventure) is murdered, and the PCs are suspects, but the commander is described as not being very inclined to believe in the PCs guilt, and that he would welcome their assistance. The PCs are never framed, they are just suspects on account of having met with the monk.

QuoteFrom the beginning half of us figured this Ulric priest guy was a baddy. Cartoonish probably isn't the right word but he came across as a touch obvious, perhaps this was the GM.

Definitely Crap GM. There's nothing in the adventure as written to suggest that the priest guy should be played as the obvious baddy, quite the contrary, he should be played in such a way as to make it something of a surprise once the ruse is finally revealed.

QuoteWe are tempted to keep the skull ourselves as it kicks so much arse but again the GM bought the adventure and I feel obliged to let him run it warts and all.

The skull as written was a terrible device, that while it gave you certain benefits would quickly doom whoever used it to total corruption and madness. Maybe you guys just didn't use it enough to get to that point (my own PCs were, in typical player-paranoia fashion, very cautious NOT to even bother using the damn thing, knowing that anything of Chaos in WFRP is a one-way ticket to tentacletown).

QuoteI'm enjoying Ashes of Middenheim. I enjoy playing all the wfrp scenarios including TEW. As long as I can swing a rusty axe in the old world I'm a happy camper. I just feel that the module is a cop out in a few areas. Nothing that can't be fixed with work from the GM.

No, I think you're wrong. The module is awesome, its your GM that's been fucking it up. His "work" as far as I can see from your post was utterly counter-productive.

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Quote from: RPGPundit;321960Again, there were never supposed to be beastmen there. Once you get to the herdstone, there is a minotaur there, and he has a chance to call reinforcements, but they aren't more than a standard party should be able to handle in a fight.

We failed to down the minotaur in a single round and he sounded the horn summoning re-inforcements. Beastmen are tough in warhammer, we have learned at the expense of many fate points, that starting character tend to get whooped by them. I played a halfling with toughness 2 so I was probably more aware of my character mortality than the others.  The arrival of a herd in response to the sounding of the horn put paid to any ideas we had regarding fighting our way out.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321960The book as written states that this encounter (meant to introduce the witch hunters) should involve a party of beastmen (their exact number to be determined by the GM) meant to be more than the PCs should be able to handle on their own but not enough that the PCs should be wiped out in only a few rounds. And again, in the book as written, once the witch-hunters show up, combat simply continues until half the beastmen are dead, at which point they flee.

Warhammer combat is very unforgiving and beastmen are brutal opponents. Getting the balance right so players feel they are slowly drowning and not horribly outclassed is tough. Coming from the ghost things in the tomb we were really beat up. Being swamped by beastmen just made us resigned to our fates. Lots of combat during the day, no fortune points left thanks to those many combats, a badly wounded under resourced first career party and then a herd of beastmen arrive on the scene makes me think the fortuitous arrival of the witch hunters more than a little Deus Ex to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321960Huh? That's not how the adventure begins according to my book. It sounds to me like your GM invented that as an alternative to having played the "Through the Drakwald" adventure in the basic WFRP book, which is actually the intro to the adventure. In the regular game, when you get to Middenheim, the watch commander asks to meet with you because of the encouter you had with the beastmen in that intro adventure. its true that later, the monk you met with (which I guess your party might not have met if you hadn't played that adventure) is murdered, and the PCs are suspects, but the commander is described as not being very inclined to believe in the PCs guilt, and that he would welcome their assistance. The PCs are never framed, they are just suspects on account of having met with the monk.

The priest we gave the icon to gets murdered. The watch track us down as we had last been in contact with the priest. We are suspects who are then recruited to find the real culprit because they are short staffed. Maybe it was the GM here, maybe not. I'll take your word for it though as I have yet to read the module.

Quote from: RPGPundit;321960No, I think you're wrong. The module is awesome, its your GM that's been fucking it up. His "work" as far as I can see from your post was utterly counter-productive.

It could be the GM. I did say the adventure needed some GM input to smooth over the bumps. Maybe in this case the GM made the bumps, regardless I am still having a lot of fun and these hiccups haven't soured me on the game.

Speaking as a GM I found Thousand Thrones ran smoothly and needed little work.

If I recall correctly, the largest amount of "reinforcement" that the Minotaur can call up are 5 Ungor, hardly an insurmountable opponent. In my game, the Minotaur ended up all calling... another Minotaur! Which was tough but the party killed them both.

Anyways, maybe you had a small party, or a particularly weak party.. my own gaming group had five players, of which two were serious fighters, one was a (somewhat incompetent) wizard, and the other two were basically less-than-combat focused characters (though one was a halfling who was skilled with a sling; the other was a noble with no meaningful combat skills).  

I'm not saying it wasn't hard-fought, but they did get through it all. Mind you, by the end of Middenheim, all but two of the original party were dead. I don't see that as any kind of flaw, though. That's just Warhammer.

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To make the last bit workable and more genre-appropriate, I

Spoiler

took all the helms away from the Knights

.

Otherwise... ACK!

-O

(damn, no spoiler tags...)

Oh, as for the adventures...  Ashes of Middenheim is relatively linear, and there are a couple of fairly crucial flaws IMO, like putting essential information behind a skill check.  With that said, the plot is entertaining and brisk.  There are a few combat balance issues, IMO, particularly at the end - but it's a great romp through a very flavorful city.

Spires of Altdorf, I've only prepped and not completely run.  We switched to 4e right before we got to it, and haven't switched back.  It's a very, very non-linear adventure with a distinctly Warhammer feel to it.  The sourcebook is less useful than Middenheim's, but that's partly by virtue of the relative sizes of the cities.  The adventure is roleplay-heavy with far more skill checks and investigation than combat.  It stands in stark contrast to Ashes of Middenheim, but if your players can switch gears well, it should be awesome.

I have Forges of Nuln but haven't looked into it deeply, so I can't comment on it at all right now.

I think it's a very serviceable - and even excellent - series of adventures.  My players had a blast with Ashes of Middenheim, despite any warts I perceived.  I think Altdorf would have gone over very well, too.

-O

To comment, in direct contrast to TEW (where each section seems to be a little worse than the last, particularly toward the end), Paths of the Damned gets better with each section. Middenheim is good, Altdorf is great, and Nuln is pure awesome.

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