I started publishing on DriveThru RPG late May. I put out:
(A) an Old School Essentials/OSR adventure with commissioned pencil artwork (40 pages), two dozen play testers, for $4.99,
(B) NPC generator - genre & system neutral, tables with CC photos made to look like ink drawings - (12 pages) for $1.79,
(C) a fantasy adventure generator, 2 tables with only cover art with same as above (2 pages) for PWYW suggested $1.
I wrote & released B & C to help get my name out there and to build a body of work, but hoping for a few more bucks to help offset the cost of the artist so I could break even and eventually make a buck or two over time. B & C had no monetary investment, only time - I tried to make all three solid products.
Sales:
A 35 in two months (2,350 views on DriveThru) - I'm really proud of how this module, The Murk's Curse, came out despite low sales.
B 2 in nearly two months (515 views)
C 150 downloads in one month - 7 paid ($2 one, $1 four, $.20 one, $.10 two) (560 views)
To date, I have recouped half of the commissioned artist cost. Since I'm just starting out, I did not price my stuff higher, but I thought a lot about pricing higher for perceived value. Selling my TTRPG work is a hobby that I hope to use to supplement retirement eventually.
I love that so far 150 people downloaded C, even if only 10% actually use it or mine it for ideas. That's great!
Anyone have any data/tested methods on how to generate a bit more money from PWYW (besides don't use PWYW) or on marketing paid content? Thanks.
Pricing is always a tricky thing. PWYW is a bad idea though as it give the idea that you don't value your own work. (asking a customer to set the price is bad in every type of business) Selling a bunch of small items as loose files is also a difficult sell. What seems to sell better is larger volumes. Me personally, I'd rather buy a 200 page book with five adventures for $25 than five loose adventures for $5 each. Maybe do a few more adventures and combine all the products together into one volume?
Also, print out your adventure and give a few copies away to GMs in your area. If you're in a larger area, get out to some game shops. Mark the cover with big bold letters "Play Test Copy" and have contact info in the book somewhere.
DON'T JUST LISTEN TO ME!!! Do your own research. Find out what is selling on DTRPG. Talk to other creators. Find other small creators and form a social group that helps each other. (A book with 6 or 7 adventure written by different authors for a system all in one volume and under one editing team is appealing.)
Also, no matter how good your product is, the more niche the work the smaller the audience. Think about doing stat blocks for 5e, pathfinder, and other fantasy RPGs. Sure, I adapt adventures for one system to another all the time but most GMs (your target audience) don't.
You wrote the material, now you have to promote it. Get it out there. Push it into appropriate conversations. Go find your customers, don't wait for them.
These are my humble thought. Best of luck.
I have some experience selling books online, not PWYW or rpg stuff. I wrote two fantasy novels. I can relay some of my experiences/strategies. Feel free to take it or leave it.
I sold over 4,000 copies of my first novel and roughly the same of my second. They're a fantasy series. Those aren't Stephen King sales, but they're good for a self-published book. I self published them both with no outside help. This is what I did:
- your first work should be priced cheap (my first was $2.99) and the price of subsequent works should be more. If they like your stuff they pay for the rest).
- you are one of thousands upon thousands of products. Advertise. It's cheaper than you think. Google best rpg modules and look at what sites pop up (that you can advertise on). Buy a banner add or something like that. The biggest you can afford. I did something similar and it really worked.
- time your advertisement. Sales are like fish, there's times they just don't bite. What I did: I paid for an ad (based on my advice above) for one month starting on Dec 25th. For some reason, ads are cheaper right after Christmas. However, most people get gift cards for Christmas. They will spend it online after Christmas Day and within the next month. I sold a ton of books during that time. The same thing worked for my second book. This strategy put me on three Amazon top ten lists (but not for overall fantasy).
- make sure your work is thoroughly edited. It's boring but it will set your stuff apart from others doing the same thing.
- I always pay something in Drivethru when it's PWYW. Typically, I adhere to the suggested amount (at a minimum). If you don't have a suggested amount, maybe add one.
- ask for reviews. Reach out to people and ask them for a review if you send them a free copy link. 50 people could say no but the 51 could say yes. Reviews work, but also make sure you put on your thick skin.
Those are my two cents. I wish you the best! Good luck!
PWYW is just another name for free. If you can set it to zero, it's zero.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 27, 2023, 12:58:25 PM
PWYW is just another name for free. If you can set it to zero, it's zero.
This. I like Stellagama's pricing, which is pretty close to the OPs.
They have an SRD (no art or formatting) version of their base systems that's free. I think that makes more sense than PWYW, at least for me.
I really like I can get all of Stellagama's Traveller stuff, for about the cost of two of Mongoose's expensive (IMO) PDFs.
BadApple, good advice. I have a full time job and am a one man show, except for the artwork on my first adventure.
Binding together with other creators is a good idea. I wonder how easy it is to coordinate editing and splitting the profits.
I wrote an old school style adventure and figured that going with the OSE license with their emblem on the outside of the product would help. I gave a generous 10 page preview and that only had one "credits" page.
I'm hoping that the PWYW downloads gives me more people for an email list. I'm writing a Tiny d6 with my son and hope to have that out in August and I have two other items in the pipeline, but just in general outline form.
Pen,
Thanks for your experiences. Advertising might make sense. It feels risky knowing where to advertise. I took your google top 10 modules and two sites I got that allow advertising that I am familiar with are this site (I feel I talked about The Murk's Curse enough here that people who wanted to look did look) and Board Game Geek - not sure what kind of TTRPG traffic fans they get.
In DriveThru a thank you message goes out when a product is bought. I asked for a review if they like it. I only have 1 (it's 5 stars).
For the PWYW I have no reviews and one rating (3 stars)
Quote from: Vic99 on July 27, 2023, 02:09:23 PM
Binding together with other creators is a good idea. I wonder how easy it is to coordinate editing and splitting the profits.
For the love of all that is holy, sort out a solid contract BEFORE anyone actually puts up any material.
Show your fellow creators what you've already done and ask to see their published materials. Get a sense of the value each collaborator brings to the project. Aside from any monetary considerations, make sure you get a sense of everyone's expectations. Crediting, order in the book, final project presentation, decision making mid project process, etc, can all be a headache if you don't hash it out before getting 800 hours and hundreds of dollars into a project.
Settling arguments, splitting money, and getting recognition for your work is going to be a lot easier if you get it all arranged before there's any risk to take or money in the coffers. You don't need a lawyer to be legal but I recommend you do a little research on contract law before writing one from scratch. Legal Zoom is an excellent resource for doing a basic collaboration.
Any money that's put up to fund a project should be treated as an investment. The contract should divide any income between what is paid out on investments and that which is going to creators. It should also stipulate who the owners are and how to divest an owner in the case of a disagreement. Non owner investors and content creators should always be paid before owners. Make sure to file your taxes for it too. It wouldn't hurt to set up an LLC. (LLCs are cheap, usually about $100 to set up.)
As far as editing, there's a few ways to go about it. First, you should always rest your material after writing for a few days and read it with the idea of nit picking and wrecking it. (Always save every evolution of a draft. It's useful to go back to earlier drafts.) Another one is have everyone you can read your material material and red ink it. Finally, there are freelance editors out there, hire one.
Quote from: BadApple on July 27, 2023, 11:56:45 AM
Me personally, I'd rather buy a 200 page book with five adventures for $25 than five loose adventures for $5 each.
I'm the complete opposite. It's highly unlikely that I'll pay $25 for an item, but I'll try something for $5. And if I like it I'll buy more.
In my opinion, PWYW is not worth it. You're better off charging a low cost for a PDF, like $1.99, than do PWYW.
Quote from: Pen on July 27, 2023, 12:03:36 PM
I have some experience selling books online, not PWYW or rpg stuff. I wrote two fantasy novels. I can relay some of my experiences/strategies. Feel free to take it or leave it.
I sold over 4,000 copies of my first novel and roughly the same of my second. They're a fantasy series. Those aren't Stephen King sales, but they're good for a self-published book. I self published them both with no outside help. This is what I did:
- your first work should be priced cheap (my first was $2.99) and the price of subsequent works should be more. If they like your stuff they pay for the rest).
- you are one of thousands upon thousands of products. Advertise. It's cheaper than you think. Google best rpg modules and look at what sites pop up (that you can advertise on). Buy a banner add or something like that. The biggest you can afford. I did something similar and it really worked.
- time your advertisement. Sales are like fish, there's times they just don't bite. What I did: I paid for an ad (based on my advice above) for one month starting on Dec 25th. For some reason, ads are cheaper right after Christmas. However, most people get gift cards for Christmas. They will spend it online after Christmas Day and within the next month. I sold a ton of books during that time. The same thing worked for my second book. This strategy put me on three Amazon top ten lists (but not for overall fantasy).
- make sure your work is thoroughly edited. It's boring but it will set your stuff apart from others doing the same thing.
- I always pay something in Drivethru when it's PWYW. Typically, I adhere to the suggested amount (at a minimum). If you don't have a suggested amount, maybe add one.
- ask for reviews. Reach out to people and ask them for a review if you send them a free copy link. 50 people could say no but the 51 could say yes. Reviews work, but also make sure you put on your thick skin.
Those are my two cents. I wish you the best! Good luck!
I greatly appreciate this insight. Thank you!
Sure thing, Jeff. Good luck!
Quote from: Vic99 on July 27, 2023, 11:28:41 AM
I started publishing on DriveThru RPG late May. I put out:
(A) an Old School Essentials/OSR adventure with commissioned pencil artwork (40 pages), two dozen play testers, for $4.99,
(B) NPC generator - genre & system neutral, tables with CC photos made to look like ink drawings - (12 pages) for $1.79,
(C) a fantasy adventure generator, 2 tables with only cover art with same as above (2 pages) for PWYW suggested $1.
I wrote & released B & C to help get my name out there and to build a body of work, but hoping for a few more bucks to help offset the cost of the artist so I could break even and eventually make a buck or two over time. B & C had no monetary investment, only time - I tried to make all three solid products.
Sales:
A 35 in two months (2,350 views on DriveThru)
B 2 in nearly two months (515 views)
C 150 downloads in one month - 7 paid ($2 one, $1 four, $.20 one, $.10 two) (560 views)
To date, I have recouped half of the commissioned artist cost. Since I'm just starting out, I did not price my stuff higher, but I thought a lot about pricing higher for perceived value. Selling my TTRPG work is a hobby that I hope to use to supplement retirement eventually.
I love that so far 150 people downloaded C, even if only 10% actually use it or mine it for ideas. That's great!
Anyone have any data/tested methods on how to generate a bit more money from PWYW (besides don't use PWYW) or on marketing paid content? Thanks.
I put out a couple of PWYW books and one of them, Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate, worked out quite well. Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate worked because it was a core book and I was continuing to release supplemental material. Also while plenty of people paid 0, a surprising number paid the suggested price (and interestingly the number seems to be about 1 in 4 so I do think often the GM would pay and the players would pick it up free, which I think is reasonable). The big advantage is people could check it out free and if they liked it buy the print book. I would still put out WHOG as PWYW if I released it today
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on July 27, 2023, 11:32:01 PM
I put out a couple of PWYW books and one of them, Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate, worked out quite well. Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate worked because it was a core book and I was continuing to release supplemental material. Also while plenty of people paid 0, a surprising number paid the suggested price (and interestingly the number seems to be about 1 in 4 so I do think often the GM would pay and the players would pick it up free, which I think is reasonable). The big advantage is people could check it out free and if they liked it buy the print book. I would still put out WHOG as PWYW if I released it today
I think free or PWYW makes sense as essentially a workable preview of a product or product line. Lots of core games have free versions - like Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number, for example.
Also, lots of people have free supplements as well - but that's more sharing just to share. If you're not interested in a professional career in gaming, then there are some good things to just sharing what you create.
I don't publish anything. I'm just a guy with money trying to make a decision about whether he wants to give you some of that money in exchange for your book.
When I see "pay what you want" it comes across to me like the merchant is asking for charity. It's like your book is $15, but you're hoping I will pay you $25 because I'm feeling magnanimous that day. This sours me in the product. It doesn't immediately put me off, but we are off to a bad start.
I don't know what your book is worth, and I won't know that until I get a chance to read it. You put in the work to write your book. You know how much time you spent and what that time is worth. You should be the one setting the price. I still won't know if your book is worth that price until I read it, but that's at least a risk I'm familiar with and comfortable accepting.
I'm not going to pay you above your asking price. That's obviously what you think the book is worth. I'm not paying you extra, and I'm certainly not doing it blind. I'm also not going to pay you below your asking price, because that's too much like theft. It isn't exactly theft, because the agreement was to pay what I wanted, but it's theft-like and I'm not going to do that.
Quote from: Corolinth on July 28, 2023, 03:43:44 AM
I don't publish anything. I'm just a guy with money trying to make a decision about whether he wants to give you some of that money in exchange for your book.
When I see "pay what you want" it comes across to me like the merchant is asking for charity. It's like your book is $15, but you're hoping I will pay you $25 because I'm feeling magnanimous that day. This sours me in the product. It doesn't immediately put me off, but we are off to a bad start.
I don't know what your book is worth, and I won't know that until I get a chance to read it. You put in the work to write your book. You know how much time you spent and what that time is worth. You should be the one setting the price. I still won't know if your book is worth that price until I read it, but that's at least a risk I'm familiar with and comfortable accepting.
I'm not going to pay you above your asking price. That's obviously what you think the book is worth. I'm not paying you extra, and I'm certainly not doing it blind. I'm also not going to pay you below your asking price, because that's too much like theft. It isn't exactly theft, because the agreement was to pay what I wanted, but it's theft-like and I'm not going to do that.
As a publisher my feeling is the suggested price is the ideal amount, but 0 is fine (otherwise I wouldn't have made it PWYW). The number of people who exceed the suggested price is extremely small in my experience and I don't suggest going over the suggested amount.
Plenty of people pay lower amounts too. One reason I like PWYW is it is also a pay what you can. If someone can afford the full amount, great, but if it is more affordable for them to pay 1.99 or 2.99, that is good too. But I think where it really shines, as mentioned in my earlier post, is enabling GMs to buy it at the suggested price and then having their players pick it up for 0.
The thread was a little heavy on merchants discussing the merits of PWYW, and light on what the customer thinks of the practice. That's all I'm doing here.
Quote from: Corolinth on July 28, 2023, 07:55:09 AM
The thread was a little heavy on merchants discussing the merits of PWYW, and light on what the customer thinks of the practice. That's all I'm doing here.
Sorry Corolinth. I wasn't knocking your points, just wanted to explain some of my reasons for selecting PWYW on the publisher side
Quote from: Corolinth on July 28, 2023, 07:55:09 AM
The thread was a little heavy on merchants discussing the merits of PWYW, and light on what the customer thinks of the practice. That's all I'm doing here.
I think the merchants were giving their opinions based on their experiences with the customers using PWYW (or not doing so).
As a consumer, I like
1. Free versions, either a quickstart or unformatted/artless/no-example SRD, to let me find out if I'm interested in the writing and system at all.
2. Books on the inexpensive side - with very few base books running around $10 and other books around $5.
It's also helpful if the preview covers actual game material. RPGPundit increased (or shifted) the preview on Arrows of Indra on my request on DTRPG, so I could see more of the game system before buying.
I've never done money for PWYW. But I have used zero for PWYW or free versions to evaluate and then gone on to spend $50 or more on PDFs. I did this with Stellagama. Oh, we also play tested Barbaric! 2nd which is a Quantum 2d6 (very light, no career chargen, just pick simple options). I'd never bought one because there was no full free preview. Once we played Barbaric! 2nd, I ended up buying most of their Quantum products. (Another $50.)
I won't buy Mongoose stuff that's not on sale for half off or more. $30 for a PDF is just too much for me. (Obviously most others disagree there.)
ETA: Oh, and yes, to me, PWYW kind of signals that you're not sure if the work is any good. It try to remember some publishers use it as "free sample", but always in the back of my mind is the other. So, when/if we ever ever publish games, we'll have free, cheap, and then less cheap. But no PWYW.
As a customer, I view PWYW like the old shareware video games. You are offering it for free (whether or not there is a suggested price) and leaving it up to me to send you money if I use/enjoy it. I've gone back a few times and gave some money, but that's only when I've used the material in some way other than just reading it.
Ditto, I kind of use PWYW like a library. Free to browse, but will pay if I use.