I prefer to start at the bottom or near it, and work my way up.

I prefer the characters work their way up, but I have a few tweaks in D&D style games to make 1st level PCs a bit tougher.  They roll for hit dice plus Con modifier as usual, but then add their entire Con score to the total at first level.  But all HP rolls are straight up.  No re-rolls, so by the mid levels, things pretty much even out.  I also give spellcasters a scroll with d3 spells at 1st level.  And mages can buy a wand or mage staff for 100 gp/lvl that either allows them to fire energy bolts (wand) or hit creatures only hit by magic, cast light, and open/close doors (staff).  These must be recharged every level.

We also use a fairly deadly Crit system so the potential for death remains constant.  But PCs that hit the high levels have earned it.  We're playing a high level Swords & Wizardry game now where the party consists of 2 original members and 6 others rescued or picked up along the way.  And some use hand-me down weapons or magic items from slain comrades.  So there's a real history there.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 14, 2024, 07:47:59 PM
I prefer the characters work their way up, but I have a few tweaks in D&D style games to make 1st level PCs a bit tougher.  They roll for hit dice plus Con modifier as usual, but then add their entire Con score to the total at first level.  But all HP rolls are straight up.  No re-rolls, so by the mid levels, things pretty much even out.  I also give spellcasters a scroll with d3 spells at 1st level.  And mages can buy a wand or mage staff for 100 gp/lvl that either allows them to fire energy bolts (wand) or hit creatures only hit by magic, cast light, and open/close doors (staff).  These must be recharged every level.

We also use a fairly deadly Crit system so the potential for death remains constant.  But PCs that hit the high levels have earned it.  We're playing a high level Swords & Wizardry game now where the party consists of 2 original members and 6 others rescued or picked up along the way.  And some use hand-me down weapons or magic items from slain comrades.  So there's a real history there.

That's interesting. I did a similar thing for my Dolmenwood campaign, where I made starting HP at level one equal to Constitution attribute. I figure it makes sense that when you're starting out your career, your natural toughness makes more difference than your training. And then as they level up the class differences will start to matter more.

The longer I play RPGs, the more I think the WFRP/Rolemaster idea where HP are fairly plentiful and easy to regain, and serious wounds are dealt through critical hits, makes a lot of sense. It rides the line well between making injuries seriously matter and not having to either have tons of magical healing or force your PCs to recover for a week after every combat.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 14, 2024, 08:14:10 PM
The longer I play RPGs, the more I think the WFRP/Rolemaster idea where HP are fairly plentiful and easy to regain, and serious wounds are dealt through critical hits, makes a lot of sense. It rides the line well between making injuries seriously matter and not having to either have tons of magical healing or force your PCs to recover for a week after every combat.

Now, that's something I've never heard or read before. Hmm. I've only played 1e WFRP before, do you see the effect in that edition or something later? I have very little RM experience, does the effect hold true for 1e/2e MERP?

I like inexperienced weaklings.

Start out as normal guard type for strength and build up to heroes.  Playing a game where a character is a hero at the start and there is no risk vs reward makes for a lame game.

Quote from: Baron on January 14, 2024, 08:56:26 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 14, 2024, 08:14:10 PM
The longer I play RPGs, the more I think the WFRP/Rolemaster idea where HP are fairly plentiful and easy to regain, and serious wounds are dealt through critical hits, makes a lot of sense. It rides the line well between making injuries seriously matter and not having to either have tons of magical healing or force your PCs to recover for a week after every combat.

Now, that's something I've never heard or read before. Hmm. I've only played 1e WFRP before, do you see the effect in that edition or something later? I have very little RM experience, does the effect hold true for 1e/2e MERP?

Admittedly I have pretty light experience with both systems, so I might be projecting what I'd like to see onto them.

I went and had a look:
--In WFRP 4e, normal wounds aren't that plentiful (12 on average for a starting level human), but you can restore them pretty easily (Toughness rating plus success level on an endurance test) by resting.
--In WFRP 2e, starting wounds average around the same but natural healing is considerably slower.
In both cases IIRC it's pretty easy to heal normal wounds with a medicine/healing check.
--I don't have near enough experience with Rolemaster math to sort it out quickly and the game is full of optional rules, but in Rolemaster Classic it seems like average starting concussion hits is going to be in the 20-30 range.  The books are also an ass and a half to navigate, but I believe you recover concussion hits at a rate of 3/hour while resting.

I don't know MERP at all, but I looked at Against the Darkmaster, which from what I understand is based on it. PCs can start with between 20 and 60 HP, and max out between 120 and 250. An attack dealing a non-critical or superficial critical strike will deal between 1 and 13 points of damage, and a superficial critical might add up to around 10 damage on top of that. You can recover 1/10 of your max HP for each hour of rest.

And then of course all of those systems have critical tables that deal injuries that are more difficult to heal.

Again, I'm a novice in all these systems, so someone might be able to correct me on what I said above.

Quote from: Baron on January 14, 2024, 08:56:26 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 14, 2024, 08:14:10 PM
The longer I play RPGs, the more I think the WFRP/Rolemaster idea where HP are fairly plentiful and easy to regain, and serious wounds are dealt through critical hits, makes a lot of sense. It rides the line well between making injuries seriously matter and not having to either have tons of magical healing or force your PCs to recover for a week after every combat.

Now, that's something I've never heard or read before. Hmm. I've only played 1e WFRP before, do you see the effect in that edition or something later? I have very little RM experience, does the effect hold true for 1e/2e MERP?

Yes; in MERP and Against the Darkmaster, its spiritual successor, you start out with a lot of hits; it can exceed 60 for martial types at 1st level.  But then you're getting 1-10 or maybe 2-20 per level after that.  And the crits can wipe you out regardless of hits, since many are insta-kills. But, unlike D&D, the first rat that bites you probably won't kill you at 1st level.  And there's healing magic, but to get the really powerful spells, you need to be fairly high level.  One thing MERP does have its lots of healing herbs like Athelas.  Every time we camped or traveled our characters were combing through the underbrush looking for that stuff.

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 13, 2024, 07:15:15 PM
Do you prefer games, where the starting characters must climb their way up out of the mud blood and shit of the game setting; or do you prefer games, where the starting characters are big damn heroes from the start?

Depends on the Players.

Zero to hero works best to teach Players not only how to play the game, but also best practices for their characters within the game. I'd suggest that for completely new to RPGs.

Everything else, especially skill based games, are better for Players who have experience with RPGs but not the current game being run.

Quote from: SHARK on January 14, 2024, 03:47:13 PM
I always prefer the game begin with Characters that are mud-covered peasants.
Campaigns are as much about the Journey as they are getting to the Destination.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 14, 2024, 09:35:13 PM
Start out as normal guard type for strength and build up to heroes.  Playing a game where a character is a hero at the start and there is no risk vs reward makes for a lame game.

If someone prefers zero-to-hero leveling, that's a valid preference. But I don't agree about the implication that other game design has no challenge.

To SHARK and honeydipperdavid -- how do you feel about a game where the PCs started unheroic but also stayed largely unheroic, like Call of Cthulhu or HarnMaster? In these, characters advance some, but they're still very mortal and never become powerhouses who can take on a dragon. i.e. How much of the attraction of starting weak is based on eventually becoming amazing heroes?

It seems pretty obvious to me that a game where you start out as a hero can still be challenging by having hero-level enemies and obstacles. Games like Marvel Superheroes, James Bond 007, Shadowrun, or most Savage Worlds setups do this - as well as lots of others. I've played a lot of games that start out with heroes, and I feel like they've often been very challenging.

I don't like what I call bumblefuck games.  These are games where starting characters are bumblefucks who suck at almost everything bumblefucking around.  It's one thing to have beginning characters be novices.  It's another to make them bumbling idiots who suck at what they are suppopsed to do and are completely worthless at everything else. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 15, 2024, 03:42:23 AMIt's another to make them bumbling idiots who suck at what they are suppopsed to do and are completely worthless at everything else.

I see that every day IRL, I hardly need to seek it out in escapism.

Why would anyone ever climb out of the mud, blood and shit? It's a roleplaying game. If I want an experience of idle luxury and ease, well I live in the modern West, I don't need dice, pencil and a character sheet for that.

Quote from: jhkim on January 15, 2024, 12:48:21 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 14, 2024, 03:47:13 PM
I always prefer the game begin with Characters that are mud-covered peasants.
Campaigns are as much about the Journey as they are getting to the Destination.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 14, 2024, 09:35:13 PM
Start out as normal guard type for strength and build up to heroes.  Playing a game where a character is a hero at the start and there is no risk vs reward makes for a lame game.

If someone prefers zero-to-hero leveling, that's a valid preference. But I don't agree about the implication that other game design has no challenge.

To SHARK and honeydipperdavid -- how do you feel about a game where the PCs started unheroic but also stayed largely unheroic, like Call of Cthulhu or HarnMaster? In these, characters advance some, but they're still very mortal and never become powerhouses who can take on a dragon. i.e. How much of the attraction of starting weak is based on eventually becoming amazing heroes?

It seems pretty obvious to me that a game where you start out as a hero can still be challenging by having hero-level enemies and obstacles. Games like Marvel Superheroes, James Bond 007, Shadowrun, or most Savage Worlds setups do this - as well as lots of others. I've played a lot of games that start out with heroes, and I feel like they've often been very challenging.

Greetings!

Well, I'm not a fan of modern setting games. So, Call of Cthulhu, all the Bond games, sci-Fi, Marvel freak-show Superheroes, all of it--nah. I'll pass.

Staying well-grounded is always a plus, but again, some dynamic changes are important, so I prefer edging closer to heroic on the spectrum, rather than remaining more static. It is an epic fantasy game, after all. Then again though, I restrict myself to D&D, ShadowDark, nowadays. It has to be in that kind of OSR wheelhouse to even get me to consider it. Otherwise, I just stick with D&D and ShadowDark.

I am also old enough, and well-established and content, I only play with people that embrace the profile, more or less. Players wanting to start out the gate as "BIG DAMN HEROES" are going to be thoroughly disappointed playing at my table.

Yes, I am restrictive, gatekeeping, and exclusive. It is what it is. I am not terribly interested in learning whole new game systems, buying whole collections of new books, or wrestling with Players that really are not on the same page as I am. And, honestly, I don't even need to contemplate even trying. I have my time well-occupied just with D&D and ShadowDark, and running campaigns using such an OSR system. Most of my regular players are entirely on the same page as I am. The only exception is the D&D campaign I run at my local game store, where I deal with encountering new people.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: yosemitemike on January 15, 2024, 03:42:23 AM
I don't like what I call bumblefuck games.  These are games where starting characters are bumblefucks who suck at almost everything bumblefucking around.  It's one thing to have beginning characters be novices.  It's another to make them bumbling idiots who suck at what they are suppopsed to do and are completely worthless at everything else.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Bumblefuck games! Yeah, I could see such games being frustrating, and a problem. I enjoy a level of basic competence.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK