DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to advance a particular agenda; it is merely my own curiousity about the subject.  No political axe is implied or should be inferred.

Question: How do you feel gender, sex, and identity roles should or should not be included in RPG's?  Why?

Do games encourage male gamers more than female gamers?  How do you feel about the stereotypes of the chainmail bikini clad damsel in distress or the hulking meatwad barbarian?

Consider the filmic depictions of Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja when responding, as they are more or less film translations of the "iconic" barbarian and/or maiden stereotypes, and inspire many of our ideas about gaming today.

Is there a place for sexism in games?  For sex?  For any sort of "nontraditional" rpg topic, for that matter?

Consider the possibility of homosexuality, transgendered heroes and heroines, hermaphrodites, bigots, and the like.  Should they be included in a game or not?  Obviously, this is going to depend heavily on your gaming group and the themes you wish to play with, but should these issues be relegated to the back burner if they're "not in your play style?"  Can't the PC's have an ally who is homosexual even if it is not the focus of the game?  Typically, many fantasy games will make an attempt to include these "dangerous" topics by presenting them in a slightly ambiguous to dergatory way.  In all of the adventures I have read which include sexual preference and all the games I have been in which involved homosexual or other "nontraditional" sexuality it was presented, at best, in a neutral to slightly discouraging way.  The one adventure I read (sorry, can't recall the name now, I will search for it.) had a homosexual villain partially motivated by thwarted sexual advances.

What are your thoughts on the state of the industry in regards to gender presentation?  Am I the only one who wants to see femeninity presented as something other than weakness, "softness," or lack?  I'm not advocating an overthrow of masculinity--- that would only reverse the problem, and as a man I think it would have a negative impact on my perception of gaming.  What I'm thinking about now is how much (or if) progress has been made in regards to gender equality in gaming.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Snipes?  Suggestions?

If you asked any of the people i game with who was the best/most memorable NPC from any game they would, to a person, say it was Marco - a raving homosexual gun runner who had a thing for one of the PC's that i introduced early on in my Alternity campaign and kept around for (on and off) 5 years until he was eventually killed by an alien they had set free who took over his mind (was a lot less cheesey than it sounds) and blew himself (Marco's body) up.

Anyway, i think it all depends on the group and GM and if they want to/are willing to portray such characters.

I think as long as people understand that people are just acting out a role, there is a place for everything/type of character and in some cases the setting would encourage certain traits like sexism and racism (Any game set in the 1920's (CoC) for instance). As long as no-one is offended and it is just acting there shouldn't be too many taboo areas where role-playing is concerned.

It doesn't come up.  Really.

I game - semi-regularly - with two females and one guy.  None of us have ever considered the females' role (either as a player or a character) to be...less than the others.  

As for sexuality - we rarely game it.  It never seems to add to our games, and truthfully, the gamers never express interest in it.  Oh, sure, it may be commented on, "Oh?  Rico was gay?  Huh.  Cool." but it doesn't change the way we game.  Even when the masterbating, hair-less palmed Ewok that was really just a midget in an "Ewok furry costume" character was played.  Yes, it was brought in for comic relief, and that's what we played it as - had the player been serious, I'm sure one or two of us may have tried to remain likewise.  Maybe.

Okay, bad example.  Still, players are players (we've had gay, black, asian, catholic, baptist, wicca, virgin, slut, bitch, asshole, you name it play at my table), and the game is just that in the end - a game.

If the player wishes to be a gay pimp, we accomadate her.  If the character wants a sex change half-way through the campaign, we'll roleplay that out.  It doesn't matter.

Probably didn't help at all, or I was way off-topic, but it was a fun post.

Peterson

It's funny you should start this thread, because on the horizon there is a chapter for YotZ: Havens that is giving me the screaming heebie-jeebies just thinking about having to write it.  From my proposal to Tim

QuoteChapter entitled “The 'South Pacific' Problem” (as in “One thing we ain't got/We ain't got dames!/There ain't nothing like a dame...”)
•   Relationship dynamics in groups with an unbalanced sex ratio
•   Civilising effect of women on men – Triple Goddess effect
•   Diaries of Becka section about Sylvia and the Spetznaz
•   Concubinage, polyandry, “saloon-bar girls”
•   Even if I do much of the writing of this book, I'd like you to write this section

Now I've done some shitty things in my time, some of which have involved women, but I'm basically a nice guy.  Having to put my mind into a place where I can write about rape as a social indoctrination technique, women as property or the fact that there are more men out there than I like to think who will say or do absolutely anything if it means that they get there cock somewhere warm and wet - well it's not going to be pleasant.  But with Tim having family problems and a school schedule that's killing him, it looks like I may be doing the first draft.  Oh well - it'll make me a better writer.

So yeah - it comes up in my games.  Basically if we need something unambiguously evil we'll throw in a Reaver or a Fleshmonger (or their equivalent in different campaign world).  It will be hinted or suggested rather than explicit and any actual abuse will happen off-screen.

Quote from: Radu the WandererQuestion: How do you feel gender, sex, and identity roles should or should not be included in RPG's?  Why?

Should gender, sex and identity roles be included in RPGs? I would like the designers of historical settings to give a description of the norms of the time. Off course with the caveat that this has no bearing on the way how the game is played (As if this needed to be said, but hey, sometimes it's good to hear ) for instance, I would appreciate examples of how to run the game using characters that go against the norm - if justification is what the group is looking for that is.

Imagine designing a nWoD mortals supplement based on Caleb Carr's The Alienist, it would be interesting, if the designers took into account the politics of race and gender.

For totally imaginary settings, it's the same thing. I like settings that have a strong theme. A matriachal society would be interesting for a change, but not like the nudge,nudge wink,wink   drow society of some games. A less slacious depiction of the way how power is distributed between the genders is what I'm looking for - Tribe 8 comes to mind.

QuoteDo games encourage male gamers more than female gamers?  

I think most games appeal to a specific demographic. In this case male. I'm not really sure to what extent my statement is true. I'm sure there are other factors as well, there always is.

QuoteHow do you feel about the stereotypes of the chainmail bikini clad damsel in distress or the hulking meatwad barbarian?

Consider the filmic depictions of Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja when responding, as they are more or less film translations of the "iconic" barbarian and/or maiden stereotypes, and inspire many of our ideas about gaming today.

I don't really think of them as iconic. My taste are different. I don't like beefcake art. Never have. But I'm sure, it's one of the factors of the question you asked earlier.

QuoteIs there a place for sexism in games?  For sex?  For any sort of "nontraditional" rpg topic, for that matter?

In my opinon, definitely.

QuoteConsider the possibility of homosexuality, transgendered heroes and heroines, hermaphrodites, bigots, and the like.  Should they be included in a game or not?  Obviously, this is going to depend heavily on your gaming group and the themes you wish to play with, but should these issues be relegated to the back burner if they're "not in your play style?"  

Yes, it should.

QuoteCan't the PC's have an ally who is homosexual even if it is not the focus of the game?  Typically, many fantasy games will make an attempt to include these "dangerous" topics by presenting them in a slightly ambiguous to dergatory way.  In all of the adventures I have read which include sexual preference and all the games I have been in which involved homosexual or other "nontraditional" sexuality it was presented, at best, in a neutral to slightly discouraging way.  The one adventure I read (sorry, can't recall the name now, I will search for it.) had a homosexual villain partially motivated by thwarted sexual advances.

Again it depends on the group. As far as how these characters are protrayed in RPGs, most times it's as caricatures or as a nod to political correctness (or at least it seems that way), which in turn creates a whole shit storm of gamer indignation. As usual, I think this has more to do with indivudual bias than anything else.

QuoteWhat are your thoughts on the state of the industry in regards to gender presentation?  Am I the only one who wants to see femeninity presented as something other than weakness, "softness," or lack?

Is it really depicted as such? I always felt that there was a absence of substantial, complex female characters and/or that female sexuality was presented as male only with different genitalia :deviousgrin:

QuoteI'm not advocating an overthrow of masculinity--- that would only reverse the problem, and as a man I think it would have a negative impact on my perception of gaming.  What I'm thinking about now is how much (or if) progress has been made in regards to gender equality in gaming.

I don't exactly know what to make of this last part. I'll have to think about it

Regards,
David R

All the female gamers I know regularly play bisexual, promiscous, ravishingly beautiful characters.

Is this unusual?

Let's see... I'm male, definitely straight, have been playing for some 25 years, number my characters by the dozen, if not the hundred... but my female characters, I can still count on my fingers.

The most memorable of them (played in the early 80s, when I was a teenager) was a warrior maid who made an unhappy marriage and turned into a man hating butch dyke, as well as the herald of Entropy (AD&D1 CN bard, previously ftr7/thief6, rose to lvl14, devoted to the Slaad lord Ygorl, bore an artifact blade in his name)... yeah, I know that playing that kind of lesbian is way stupid, especially for a guy, but she was a really cool character, and I'm really not good playing females.

As for sex... all the campaigns I've been in where that kind of intimate relationships got more than the scantiest coverage (including those where any of the PCs had spouses that were mentioned more often than in passing) can be regarded as disasters, the most egregious being those where the DM had a prominent NPC be the spouse of his girlfriend's PC and both were manifestly stand ins for the players more than proper characters and the campaign started completely revolving around them (and don't even make me mention the kids).

for me, gaming isn't the time to confront "deep real world issues". i don't want to talk about sex abuse. i don't want to talk about abortion. i don't want to talk about whether paladins can kill kobold children. these aren't fun to me. i want to have a good time, i don't want to work out issues.

sometimes the games i game in have gay characters, but it isn't made into a big deal. we don't explore how fantasy societies deal with homosexuality. heterosexuality never really comes into it either except for the

ME: "i blow all my money on ale and whores"
DM: "ok everybody gets laid. the next day..."

It's a mood and intent sort of thing for me.

If I want to run a highly simulationist game which is meant to have a very real feel, I am ill at ease with brushing aside issues that are such a persistent part of the real world.

But if I am going to run a heroic fantasy game, I find it perfectly appropriate to make the social maturity of the setting to be a bit larger than life as well.

They're very much a part of my games.  All of the characters have had a little experiences with romance, I made them all roleplay getting dates for homecoming.  (I'm such a bastard sometimes )  One of the characters is bisexual and in the closet about it, but to be honest that's the least of the girl's problems right now.  

So it's appropriate for my game's genre.  I don't think it's worth dealing with in all games though.  Take each on a case by case basis and how much the game will focus on the lives of the individual characters.  If the action is focused on interpersonal relationships of course such things need to be addressed.  If its mostly concerned with external threats then it's not going to be as relevent.

As for attracting or repelling women?  I'm not convinced that it's the cheesecake that keeps women proportionately out of fantasy gaming.  After all, nudity and explicit sexuality is rampant in horror games which (I'm talking about White Wolf) have a much larger ratio of women playing.  Buffy is very feminist and respectful of women, but I don't imagine it has more players than the horror proportionately.  I think that fantasy is a genre that tends to interest women less.  I can't prove this, just a feeling I get.  

Again, if you want girl power in your gaming look at Buffy.  It manages to present the female heroes as powerful and strong, while not making them unfeminine or making men the villian.

Thanks, Maddman, I may have to look into this... Buffy... game.  Though I must confess I'm not the world's largest Joss Wheadon fan, I won't hold my taste against the game.  You can probably play a pretty bitchin' game with that system, much like WoD can be used to play out, how do you say... INTERESTING storylines instead of emotional masturbation and self aggrandizing "pity the poor doomed supremely powerful being" games.  GRRRRR!!!!!

(Ok, so I only have a hate on for old school WoD.  The new stuff is rather cool.)

(Oh, and I did enjoy Serenity.)

(Goddamn it!  Am I losing all of my inflexible boorish opinions?  Fuck!  Someone give me an opinion I can disagree with, stat!)

Quote from: Radu the WandererThanks, Maddman, I may have to look into this... Buffy... game.  Though I must confess I'm not the world's largest Joss Wheadon fan, I won't hold my taste against the game.  You can probably play a pretty bitchin' game with that system, much like WoD can be used to play out, how do you say... INTERESTING storylines instead of emotional masturbation and self aggrandizing "pity the poor doomed supremely powerful being" games.  GRRRRR!!!!!

(Ok, so I only have a hate on for old school WoD.  The new stuff is rather cool.)

(Oh, and I did enjoy Serenity.)

(Goddamn it!  Am I losing all of my inflexible boorish opinions?  Fuck!  Someone give me an opinion I can disagree with, stat!)

The general consensus is that if you want to check out the system without playing in the Buffy setting the best bet is to get the Angel corebook and The Magic Box suppliment for Buffy.  There's also an Army of Darkness game that uses the same system, but I haven't seen much of it.

Sex and sexism can be a powerful tool at the ST's disposal, but they beyond all others in the toolshed must be used with utmost care and caution.

Usually, I don't use them unless it can be done to craft a powerful response from my players (we're all guys), but I think they can/should be a part of RPG's.

Gender itself helps to formulate an image of the character, which I find helps play that character.