GP, and calculation thereof, is just an abstraction for GM, and sometimes player, convenience. It does not necessarily have bearing on the quantity of precious metal available, capacity for a powerful leader/group (i.e. a mortal king) to acquire or commission things, or fixity of exchange. That's all on the GM and setting. Force of arms commanding domain authority, such as in-kind contributions and corvée labor, were never "lynchpinned" to such things like the gold standard.

However economy of scale and exchange rate issues do become long-term issues with the prevalence of magic shops.

Quote from: Opaopajr;594896GP, and calculation thereof, is just an abstraction for GM, and sometimes player, convenience. It does not necessarily have bearing on the quantity of precious metal available, capacity for a powerful leader/group (i.e. a mortal king) to acquire or commission things, or fixity of exchange. That's all on the GM and setting. Force of arms commanding domain authority, such as in-kind contributions and corvée labor, were never "lynchpinned" to such things like the gold standard.

However economy of scale and exchange rate issues do become long-term issues with the prevalence of magic shops.

Actually, you will find that some systems, including D&D/AD&D described the size and composition of coinage; often in an unrealistic way. It doesn't need to make sense in very basic games, but it does once you have seasoned players that can rape your economic structure. One instance I know of that happened in a game in which a mate of mine was a player had the value of gold and copper swapped, when a payer decided to copper-clad palaces and his fleet of ships. The value of copper skyrocketed, and gold became worthless. Was gold rarer than it had been before? No.

Was the perception that it was? Possibly. I'm not sure what to think of this one, but the party accumulated so many magical goodies, that they sold them for massive amount of gold and then flooded the market with that gold to buy copper, depleting copper reserves from the nation. Then again, I see the main issue was allowing the player to accrue the wealth to afford an armada of several-hundred ironside, large-sized ships and several castles.

My main advice is to be cautious, reasonable (or unreasonable, or downright pigheaded if need be) and rational when giving out or selling items, and in allowing or using magical item stores.

Of the few that I implement, Techno-mystical items are the ones most commonly bought or sold, as they generally don't require questing for materials, and are made in high-tech civilizations that can mine mystic minerals and process them, and manufacture objects in quantity. these are then normally regulated, so that powerful Mystic-tech and Psy-tech is a black-market item.

Often these items use sorcery to enhance technology, not just replacing its function with spells.

Quote from: Mr. GC;594889That sounds like some classic Infinity Plus One sword fucking up right there.

If you can beat up a basilisk, a medusa, and a cocktrice and harvest body parts from them then why do you need protection from petrification again? Especially for one fight, when you had to go through at least three just to make the damn thing.

If we keep this under 1e standards, the wizard needing those items would hire people, possibly the PCs to get them for him. Not the other way around. The money he paid out would be about 1/4 to 9/10 the value of the item, per DMG pricing, based on haggling.His reasons for wanting it may even be devious, and perhaps he wishes to use the scroll to bypass an even more powerful guardian that can petrify with a glance somewhere else.

Keep in mind that even with that list, if you killed and kept the entire corpse of each creature, the only one that limits you is the Basilisk, and there is no requirement to use one that is full-grown. if you find a nest and kill the young, or take the eggs and use the unhatched critters for their eyes, you have the ingredients to make several items.

Quote from: estar;594862I wouldn't say quite often but where they are is quite predictable. In higher population cities, or cities where trade routes converge for particular luxury items. For example Venice in the Renaissance as a trade route example, and Constantinople throughout the Middle Ages as a population example.

Since by mid level to upper levels PC are wealthy individuals, if everything goes right, they gravitate to high population locales to gain access to rare and hard to find items.

I never argue they wouldn't be, however when it is stated that a magic shop would never exist because of X then I will debate the point as historically there were places for the wealthy to purchase or commission high-value and rare items.

Before we continue here, let me just state for the record that this thread requested opinions. We all have them, some more or less extreme than others. I found mine over many years of running and playing in games, and I find that when magical shoppes are commonplace, they seem to cheapen the idea, or the spirit, of finding items.

I am certainly not telling people how to run their own settings.

QuoteYup and my price lists and frequency charts take that into account. If it takes finite resources, finite time, and a near certain chance of success to make an item then there will be a market for it. It what people do.

The law of supply and demand. If only ten Dalek-eyes appear every year then the price of items made from Dalek-eyes will reflect that. Provided if there is a demand for the particular type of items made from Dalek-eyes.

If you are trying to construct a plausible scenario for why there are no magic item shops. One way is to require specific and rare components to create them. This esstentially makes each item a Mona Lisa or a Statue of David. The economy that deals with these types of items will be a privileged one that relies solely on auctions and private sales with items only being sold once per generation if even that.

I wouldn't say that it makes all items quite that level of value, but then again, in the time they were made, both The Mona Lisa and David were ordinary, commissioned works of art. it is only their history that makes them so valuable today, so perhaps I do look at many items that way. If it has an appropriate history, the excitement of finding it in the wild increases, and players don't want to part with them.

QuoteAnother way to make the process of making magic items unreliable or esstentially random. This also puts them into the category of a Mona Lisa or Statue of David.

I avoid this one. I dealt with it in a game, where every attempt of mine to make a 'rod of command' created a 'staff of wonder', and that was the last straw...

I have a mystical creation system for my RPG, but it is far more complex than those used by D&D. It suggests the use of unusual items, but it doesn't demand them, leaving this debate up to the storyteller to decide. One method requires MEA (a form of magical energy points) drained fro the creator, so there is a sacrifice, which is explained very clearly and logically in the system physics.

Other methods, such as finding mystical materials exist to avoid this issue. I actually avoid listing prices, and instead list item creation costs in the MEA to make them. I let the storyteller set his own prices and markets as he desires.

QuoteThat how your campaign works and your opinion. Others, like myself, have a different opinion and our campaigns work differently in regards to magic-items. Both approaches can be made to work and be fun for the players.

The only problem comes when a referee sets up his campaign with the conditions that allows for magic shop but arbitrarily decides they don't exist. This occurs when the referee allows PCs to create magic items and the math works out that there ought to be more items available. Or that he uses a high restricted magic item creation system, yet every bandit is equipped with a +1 sword.

As I said above, this thread is about opinions. You have found a way to present a logical market, but likewise, that works because you established a system for it. The problem I see is the willy-nilly magic shop, with all pricing based by the book, and no forethought on the ramifications of such 'resources' on the world and the story.

QuoteTo that the fix is simple either change the premise of your campaign or change the rules to reflect the premise.

That is your judgment not mine. From my point of view there is little different in spending a 1,000 gp to buy a +1 sword or spending a 1,000 gp to outfit and pay a company of 20 fighters to work for you. In the hands of a ingenious player that 1,000 gp is going to translate into increased power no matter what you do as a referee. So you might as well learn to work with it and learn how to make the campaign work with the added power.

There is one difference: You pay those men to work for you for a set duration, and then need to pay them again when the duration expires. they can also be killed, costing you to replace. Unless your sword is broken, in a fair-market economy, you can always sell it. The money you spend on those men is gone forever, and most mercenaries will also want a cut of your profits (in addition to base pay) out of any risky business.

The again, I tend to be a prick about these sorts of hirelings.

QuoteAnd the reason I have this point of view is that because I ran the Majestic Wilderlands for nearly 30 years now. I had campaigns where players started out impoverished and stayed that way, I had  campaigns where people started as rulers of realms, and everything in between. The challenge for me was to learn how all of these different types of campaigns fun and enjoyable for the players. And this included learning how to incorporate magic shops in a way that is fun for the players yet still kept the campaign a challenge.

So when I see these pronouncements that X is bad or X could never exist. I point out they are the result of how you spin the various dials for your setting and not a truism.

Nothing about this thread predicts or announces truisms. We are discussing the problems with certain situations, and the flaws inherent to each. Even my approach is not perfect for everyone. It does however, encourage exploration, risk-taking, adventuring and custom-creation, which my players over the years enjoy. Once in a while I encounter a munchkin-ish player who wants to have everything, and is dissatisfied with my story, but they'd be unhappy no-matter what I did, as they want more than every other player and I reward i/c action, not just loud-voiced o.o.c. whining.

QuoteAgain the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply the price of the item will be high. All the things you mentioned are ways of ensuring a low supply by making the item difficult to make.  And with the high price comes the fact that only the wealthy will be able to afford them. And because magic items have a utility value and some are dangerous the powerful will seek to control access to them.

Sure. As long as there is a demand, and people willing to pay the prices, and people willing to take the risks. That works for you, but it assumes that if a player wants to work for a craftsman, procuring what they need to make items, that they can be hired, and learn the trade in the context of your story. I presume that is all possible as well.

QuoteAgain where did I say that? I pointed out specifically that in my campaigns  magic items are sold in one of several different ways depending on their pricing and rarity. Over the counter, over the counter but not available often, commissioned, and private auctions.

A slum magic item shop would likely only be selling minor potions and charms (like a +1 one time bonus to save), and maybe doing some commission work for the Thieves Guild.

I would say that a slum-bought magic item is probably black-market goods, but hey-oh, that's just my opinion on the likely circumstances.

QuoteSupply and Demand, even if there is only 1 of something it will have a value. There are no true priceless items. Now the price may not be paid in coins. It may be only traded between kings, high nobles, and other people of great power and influence. For example the alliance between Dunador and Erewhon is sealed by the transfer of the legendary +3 sword Caladan from Erewhon to Dunador.

Actually, the definition of 'priceless' in trade context is an object for which no-one can set a value, because it is unique, and transaction of it happens against the nature of an economic structure, either by auction to set a temporary value (its current, highest trend), or by trade, or by theft.

Anything unique, aside from the natural atomic differences, or minor visual shifting from one made to the next, is by definition 'priceless', as no value can be established if only one can ever be sold at any one time.

Even non-unique items can be 'priceless'. Look at the 1933 Double-Eagle. Only one has ever been sold. The value affixed to it is entirely subjective, and will be different if it is ever auctioned again. Only one exists that is legal to sell. If someone wanted another, it would be sold illegally, and thus, no market value can be firmly established for it.

QuoteFirst off the gold piece in D&D is ahistorical. The medieval economy was based on the silver piece. There are various figures for medieval income for kings. For example in 1485 the King of England earned 29,000 pounds from their crown lands (personal property).  Since there are 240 silver pennies per pound that is 6,960,000 silver pieces from his lands along. Extrapolating D&D gold pieces from that at AD&D 1st's 20 sp to 1 gp we get
384,000 gp in revenue. This is not including scutage and customs duties. And this only the king's income, not the income of any of his subjects.

Agreed. Commoners did not carry gold and Lairds kept it in coffers in small quantities. Silver pence, and shillings were common, as were bronze coins, brass coins, and other silver coins of various weights.

Electrum is the oldest material used for minted coinage, and the early Celts, before Roman occupation used gold as a predominant coinage. It really depends on the region, their mineral resources, and the time-period. The Scandinavians used hack-silver, the Greeks used the Drachma, a silver coin that was about 1/2oz troy (I used to have a MS one from Athens) and the Romans commonly used the Sestertius (and other denominations) of different sizes in bronze and silver.

By the 16th century, gold coins were more common in England, and the Sovereign (also the Unite, or the Guinea for a while) was something that a wealthy person may have in his pocket. The value was too high for the lower-class, but even a commoner might he one as a savings, hidden-away somewhere. (Not all Sovereigns were worth 240-pence either..some were worth 360-pence.)

The main issue here is that people assume gold coins to be standard weights today, which makes them extremely unrealistic. I use a silver-based economy through all the time periods of the Saerosian Empire... You can see the chart here.

QuoteSo I have to say that if a referee is trying to use realistic emulation for his setting that it is perfectly plausible to have some trade in unique high value items.

Again the AD&D gold piece is ahistorical, you are correct in saying that many troy ounces of gold would not reasonably exist. But also understand that prices adjust to the available supply of money. So whatever you set the total amount of gold there will be a price that somebody will be willing to sell the most valuable item for given the right circumstances.

Historically, silver pieces were the size of a dime, and gold pieces ranged from dime sized to quarter sized.

I use a silver based price system drawn from research done by myself and the Harn fanbase. I created my OD&D magic item price list by establishing a baseline for a +1 sword by comparing it to historical luxury items. Then I judged the value of other items in relation to the +1 sword. Then I took the prices and derived the cost of making them. Which also include the time it takes to make them.

I have different currencies for each setting, and locations in those settings, and exchange-rates for them. The Saerosian Empire uses the Mark, and the Zorian Empire, the Dsari, as an example. They do not trade at a 1:1 ratio, as the value is not entirely based on the metal value. Larandran Marks, while still part of the Saerosian Empire, are in different denominations, as they use Base-8, not Base-10 mathematics.

Once more, the issue in question is the 'by-the-book syndrome'. If we use the terms and values associated in the book, the entire system is absolutely absurd.

QuoteAnd to make sure that the cost and time logically produces the prices for the items, I priced the items first and came up with the cost and creation time second.

Which btw is what I recommend for anybody wanting to do this. Make the price list first and then extrapolate the creation cost and time from that.

http://www.batintheattic.com/download/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

I would like to read your PDF, however I get a 404-Error both with spaces, and with %20 in their place. I suggest using underscores in your filenames, rather than spaces. I'll crawl your site to see if I can find the document, and look it over when I get a chance, or when you correct the link, whichever comes first.

What I do is assign value in any economy, in their local currency, to established amounts of MEA. The basic process, Dsari'evernon, is the trade value of Erevnotic matter (see my post about in this thread for more on that concept.

This then becomes the value of spellcasting services, and the base cost for enchanting something, calculating the required MEA, if you pay someone to do it for you, not inducing any weird materials that you need beyond mystical or E-D matter.

For example, one coin of Virilinium is worth 100,000Mk, because of the amount of mystical energy contained within it. This is the highest value expressed on the charts, but it is not the only value I have on paper. I keep weights for sch coins in grams, and he energy the contain, and the associated value of each based on this. Keep in mind that this is a trans-galactic star-empire, so having values this high does have a logical purpose, and 100,000Mk coins arr used for Imperial trade, at the government-level, and for treasury backing, not for ordinary transactions.

In fact, the Saerosian Empire requires a license (with an applicable fee and petition) to be able to carry gold. Woven-crystal-fibre 'paper money. is usually used for transactions in person, and coins are only for small business, except in specific periods before the Empire became so advanced (in terms of technology), or after the second temporal war, when a great deal of technology was displaced, along with much of the empire, in an alternate-dimension with a different time-flow.

After that, coins became a normal currency again, but gold is always highly regulated, partly for aristocratic reasons, and partly because it was needed for things other than money. (X|S)

Quote from: jibbajibba;594870and what do you do when the PCs start flogging their superfluous magic items for 10 times the price in the DMG?

You don't expect NPC's to actually give PC's the going price for an item, do you? That's just silly. Even the 1e DMG says don't do it.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919If we keep this under 1e standards, the wizard needing those items would hire people, possibly the PCs to get them for him. Not the other way around. The money he paid out would be about 1/4 to 9/10 the value of the item, per DMG pricing, based on haggling.His reasons for wanting it may even be devious, and perhaps he wishes to use the scroll to bypass an even more powerful guardian that can petrify with a glance somewhere else.

Translation: It's even more stupid, as you get even less benefit from doing so and if you have no problem with petrification... you have no problem with petrification. It isn't even like say modern D&D, where a "powerful guardian with a stone gaze" actually means something like "higher DCs or be stoned". Nope, flat saves. So anyone that can get the stuff for an anti petrification scroll did nothing but prove they don't need it.

QuoteKeep in mind that even with that list, if you killed and kept the entire corpse of each creature, the only one that limits you is the Basilisk, and there is no requirement to use one that is full-grown. if you find a nest and kill the young, or take the eggs and use the unhatched critters for their eyes, you have the ingredients to make several items.

So instead of just fighting one, you fight a protective mother. Yeah. Standard argument where just killing them is easier.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Before we continue here, let me just state for the record that this thread requested opinions. We all have them, some more or less extreme than others. I found mine over many years of running and playing in games, and I find that when magical shoppes are commonplace, they seem to cheapen the idea, or the spirit, of finding items.
I am certainly not telling people how to run their own settings.

I appreciate you being up front about that. I am not trying to tell people how to run setting either. I will however debate the point whenever somebody says that it is not plausible to have magic shops.

As for the commonplace magical shoppes, sure it can be an issue in lessening the impact of finding valuable items. But consider this, isn't the problem one of the players having the wealth to begin with rather than the fact they can buy magic items.  My experience there is no difference as far the impact on the campaign goes whether they can buy a +3 sword vs. an entire mercenary company. Either use of wealth is going to have repercussions on subsequent adventures and the fact the former is a "magic item", and the latter is a mundane use of wealth makes no difference in this regard.

Coupled with this what is commonplace is subjective. Not in terms of designing your campaign but rather in the lifestyles of the characters. At the beginning of the campaign they are poking around the boondocks, travelling in the wilderness, or staying in tavern dives. Later they migrate to a metropolis where they can spend their newly acquired wealth and deal with the movers and shakers of the setting, what was rare and awe inspiring becomes commonplace by virtue of familiarity.

The way I found to deal with this is to set it all up as naturally as I can, as if it was a real place given the premise of my setting. That way the players take same pride in shopping at a magic item shop as a young executive does at being able to buy his first Mercedes.  And like the real world there is a hierarchy of items that the wealthy can access. Which means there isn't just one place where you can stop if you desire more for your character.  If the player chooses too he could press on and try to be the Overlord or King.

Also the stuff they used to want becomes unimportant. Simply because it no longer matters in the scope of what they are dealing with later in the campaign. As their capabilities grow so do their goals.

And to bring it back to the commonplace magic shop, I feel it not the problem people make it out to be. A campaign can work with or without them. I think what important is making sure that your premise and implementation of how rare magic items are match up. I.e. no magic shops but every bandit has a +1 sword that some have mentioned.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I wouldn't say that it makes all items quite that level of value,

Sure, because Magic Items are objects that do useful things. If it doesn't do something that people perceive that is useful or isn't a work of art then it value is low regardless of how much it took to get the components.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I avoid this one. I dealt with it in a game, where every attempt of mine to make a 'rod of command' created a 'staff of wonder', and that was the last straw...

I basically agree. Part of the reason I have magic shops in my game is not being a dick when the PCs have wealth. So rather than getting bent out of shape, I learned how to incorporate it into my campaigns.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919As I said above, this thread is about opinions. You have found a way to present a logical market, but likewise, that works because you established a system for it. The problem I see is the willy-nilly magic shop, with all pricing based by the book, and no forethought on the ramifications of such 'resources' on the world and the story.

Agree, I didn't use the BECMI system or the AD&D system to make what I wound using either.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919There is one difference: You pay those men to work for you for a set duration, and then need to pay them again when the duration expires. they can also be killed, costing you to replace. Unless your sword is broken, in a fair-market economy, you can always sell it. The money you spend on those men is gone forever, and most mercenaries will also want a cut of your profits (in addition to base pay) out of any risky business.

Sure every expenditure of wealth comes with advantages AND complications. My point is that a resourceful players can wreck a campaign just as easily with mundane expenditures as with magical expenditures.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Nothing about this thread predicts or announces truisms. We are discussing the problems with certain situations, and the flaws inherent to each. Even my approach is not perfect for everyone. It does however, encourage exploration, risk-taking, adventuring and custom-creation, which my players over the years enjoy. Once in a while I encounter a munchkin-ish player who wants to have everything, and is dissatisfied with my story, but they'd be unhappy no-matter what I did, as they want more than every other player and I reward i/c action, not just loud-voiced o.o.c. whining.

Agreed, the only thing I would say I do differently is that I learned how to incorporate the munchkin (and other traditionally problem players) into the campaign while still keeping the game fun for players with other interested. So it doesn't bother me that they are munchkins because in my setting they are about as effective as real life munchkins.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I would say that a slum-bought magic item is probably black-market goods, but hey-oh, that's just my opinion on the likely circumstances.

In most Magic Item creation systems there are items that authorities will want to control. And one way the criminal element can get them is to make them themselves.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919Even non-unique items can be 'priceless'. Look at the 1933 Double-Eagle. Only one has ever been sold. The value affixed to it is entirely subjective, and will be different if it is ever auctioned again. Only one exists that is legal to sell. If someone wanted another, it would be sold illegally, and thus, no market value can be firmly established for it.

To keep it gamable, I figure anything that potentially valuable will be auctioned or traded as part of politics.  Not entirely realistic but it works for most things.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I have different currencies for each setting, and locations in those settings, and exchange-rates for them. The Saerosian Empire uses the Mark, and the Zorian Empire, the Dsari, as an example. They do not trade at a 1:1 ratio, as the value is not entirely based on the metal value. Larandran Marks, while still part of the Saerosian Empire, are in different denominations, as they use Base-8, not Base-10 mathematics.

My experience with different currencies is that players get annoyed at it to the point that really doesn't add anything to my campaign. What I found effective to have one common coin (the silver penny 1/250th of a lb) and one really valuable coin (the 1oz gold crown worth 320 silver).  

I have several less commonly used coins (silver mark, copper farthings, gold pennies0 but those two are the ones that get used the most. And everything on my list is valued in silver so a player can just ignore even that system if they want.

The same reason why I no longer use components. Most players just get annoyed with it to the point where it distracts from the game. So I just have them keep track of total value of components they possess. And once in a while I will require something specific  when it make sense.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594919I would like to read your PDF, however I get a 404-Error both with spaces, and with %20 in their place. I suggest using underscores in your filenames, rather than spaces. I'll crawl your site to see if I can find the document, and look it over when I get a chance, or when you correct the link, whichever comes first.

http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

This should work.

Quote from: estar;594957My experience with different currencies is that players get annoyed at it to the point that really doesn't add anything to my campaign. What I found effective to have one common coin (the silver penny 1/250th of a lb) and one really valuable coin (the 1oz gold crown worth 320 silver).  

I have several less commonly used coins (silver mark, copper farthings, gold pennies0 but those two are the ones that get used the most. And everything on my list is valued in silver so a player can just ignore even that system if they want.

The same reason why I no longer use components. Most players just get annoyed with it to the point where it distracts from the game. So I just have them keep track of total value of components they possess. And once in a while I will require something specific  when it make sense.



http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

This should work.

I've just had my nightcap and bedtime pipe, so I don't feel quite up to giving a full reply, but i wanted to respond to this point before it falls through my ears...

The reason I use multiple currencies and exchanges is almost the exact reason you outline, but it is a bit deeper than that. I run games that are extremely highly detailed. I vividly describe scents, sounds, textures, temperatures, colours, el. al.. When a character visits another planet, or another country, they are crossing over into an alien culture to their own. I want the player to feel and actually to experience what that is like, and to slowly adapt to it in one way or another, or get irritated. before the Euro, I had to know the exchange rates when going to Italy or Austria, and wherever. I needed to know some of the local language--yes, I use regional and planetary languages and dialects--and adjust tot he customs.

I feel it adds to the role-playing experience to 'live through that', in the meta-world.

In this setting, there are several star-empires. The setting uses technology, varying by Empire and planet, sorcery (also varying by local mEF), Psychic abilities and so on, but customs, culture and currency differ between them. Having a main base currency for any one Empire is logical, and essentially required to keep it from falling apart, but some deviations, such as the Base-8/10 shift can be expected. if the players can't figure it out, they can hire someone to handle transactions for them, at a cost, but refusing to work it out is a lazy step IMHO.

Now put yourself in a situation where you are going from wherever you are to Japan. you are going to have a culture-shock on your first visit, need to adapt to the currency, and their food, and their laws. I want people to feel that in-game, and I want the emotion to carry beyond the character to the player.

In a singlepworld setting, having currencies for different kingdoms makes perfect sense to me. That is how the world works, and people need to learn tbat they can be taken for a fool about the value of their money. Additionally, some currencies simply have no value in other areas. The Kingdom of Sodomar in the post-5th-Empire period (after the Second Temporal War ended up using hot-stamped (branded) wooden discs for coins. Why? They are a desert culture in a financial crisis, and wood, there, is a rare commodity.

The Imperial nation of Taranya uses Koji, which are ivory or jade placards etched with their value, based in weight of grain or rice. Saeroa and Larandra use silver coins, with Saeroa on base-10 and Larandra on Base-8, but Koaloba uses gold and bronze, based on mineral resources.

Each has their own language or dialect, and while people may slightly understand you there, your language skills will determine your ability to easily communicate. Keep in mid that this is the core-world of a trans-galactic empire that fell back into Renaissance-period technology after the war. Some leftover technology remains, but most is kept as curios, with the owners having no real idea on the actual use of their 'end-table' (Subwave-net InfoTerminal).

I don't mind the player annoyance: You can't please everyone all of the time; and once they get past the exchange systems, and get used to them, it ceases to bother them and can actually both be fun, and used to their advantage. If one currency is stronger you can do trade in that region and then exchange the stronger currency for your local one and use the margin to your benefit.

The Zorian Empire also preferred formed crystal discs in place of any form of 'paper money' for higher values. These are highly-secured, of course, but allowed for a valuable 'coin' that wasn't too much trouble to produce and is difficult to counterfeit. i think that the diversity of money adds to the flavour of my games.

I also run far more simple games for some events, and just use a basic 'word-economy' system for them, but these are not my staple stories, and are generally for new members to the Guild, giving them a teaser, while inviting them to other games.

Interestingly, because of the powers that allow matter transmutation and spontaneous creation, i have never has a character in Eric's games that needed money. He goes very overboard with  lot of things. One of my characters, who i call Super-Elf' was given so much power that I honestly have no idea how to play him anymore. 1000d6 laser-vision. Screw that.

I prefer running and playing in games that require a lot of thought, and reward exploration, research and curiosity. I also like making my own items, be they magical, scientific or pychic. This isn't to save money: It's to make unique,a nd new things that can be story items later for other games. I am giving them a history, that makes them some kind of relic later.

I also think that it is nice to have some kind of story or blurb for every item. TSR's 'Encyclopedia Magica' was great for this. I dot need people to chase down every creature in the universe to make things, but if it can add an adventure-hook, I will opt to offer it as a possibility.

Interestingly, no person in my regular game has a routine mystical weapon. One has an energy rifle that can leech psychic energy to add extra damage, and one has a mystically-enhanced e-rifle that deals half energy damage and half mystical energy. I believe that's all of the magical weapons they the group has, and nobody complains.

I run a fair story, and they don't run into a swarm of NPCs with +14 stazers or a vorpal-bunny-o'greatxes. That is another good point made in this thread, but it is less of a magical shop issue than a balancing / compensation problem at the fault of the GM. If you feel the group is too overpowered with too much stuff, then handing out powerful items to NPCs is just a way to worsen the core-problem. Why not provide challenges where brute force is not a viable answer?

I would rather design foes that outwit the PCs than outgun them, and I always leave leverage room for figuring our solutions, except in the case of riddles, which have a logical solution: it may require thought and cooperation, but the solution always makes sense, often to the traditional 'D'Oh' from one of more of them whey they finally puzzle through it.

I also enjoy incorporating a great deal of mystery (either present, or ancient) and intrigue (drama, political, or horror) into my tales. I definitelo don't run typical fantasy dungeon-crawls on a routine basis, although that doesn't preclude 'dungeons' in my games, although they may turn out to be an inter-dimensional spaceship in the end. (X|S)

The only magic shops i've ever used offer things that make peoples lives easier - comfort magic.

If there was a magic shop that only catered to adventurers it'd soon go out of business.

Quote from: MagesGuild;595014I've just had my nightcap and bedtime pipe, so I don't feel quite up to giving a full reply, but i wanted to respond to this point before it falls through my ears...

I started another thread for my reply.

Quote from: danbuter;594936You don't expect NPC's to actually give PC's the going price for an item, do you? That's just silly. Even the 1e DMG says don't do it.

if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595041if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

For what it worth the AD&D DMG specifically state that the price in the book is what the players can sell the item form. Nothing about how much they can buy it for. So it not out of line to say for your campaign they sell at 3 to 20 times the price in the DMG.

Quote from: estar;595049For what it worth the AD&D DMG specifically state that the price in the book is what the players can sell the item form. Nothing about how much they can buy it for. So it not out of line to say for your campaign they sell at 3 to 20 times the price in the DMG.

That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

It makes no sense for PCs to get less for the same product than an NPC becuase as far as the game world is concern they are the same. Just like it makes no sense that a PC can't set up a school training people of their class or that PCs can't train each other. All these rules are just crude ways 1e tried to control access to cash.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595081That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

Except that, as an adventurer, you're not a guy with a carpet shop. You're a guy trying to unload a tsotchke on eBay.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595041if there is a shop that actually sells items at 3-20 times list price and they are still in business then i expect the pcs to be able to sell items at a reasonable price yes. the buyer in the game world doesn;t care if the seller is a PC or a magicshop.

By the way have to say welcome to MagesGuild. Really good posts.

Thank you for the welcome. Just so that you know, there will likely be several of us-on posting via this account, and each of us will have a signature (mine being '(X|S)', if you noticed). We're an association of writers and what-have-you, which you might find interesting, as we elaborated upon in this thread.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595081That's rules logic not real logic though estar.
If I am selling carpets and a shop down the road is doing business selling carpets at $100 - $1000 I go have a look at their wares and a feel for what they are offering. I can then sell my carpets for $75 - $750 and undercut them or come in at the same price range.
If I sell my carpets for $1-$10 then someone will come in buy them all then open a carpet shop selling carpets at the same price as the other guy.

It makes no sense for PCs to get less for the same product than an NPC becuase as far as the game world is concern they are the same. Just like it makes no sense that a PC can't set up a school training people of their class or that PCs can't train each other. All these rules are just crude ways 1e tried to control access to cash.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;595094Except that, as an adventurer, you're not a guy with a carpet shop. You're a guy trying to unload a tsotchke on eBay.

Let me put-aside the issue of whether such a shoppe is good or bad or suggested, and discuss the economics issue you raised...

There are two large factors in the market-value and the wholesale-value difference. One of them is typical margin, which varies wildly depending on the category of item. If you decide that mystical objects are luxury items, then you might find it interesting that many luxury items have a gigantic mark-up, between 500% and 1500% of wholesale cost.

Jewelry, at retail, has an average margin of 900%, meaning it sells for ten-times the price that the jeweler spent on it to place it in his showcase, and if you bring an item to a jeweler to sell it, you will usually be paid <10% of its retail value as a used piece.  I have a friend that runs a jewelry store, and another who runs a fobwatch shoppe, and learned a lot from both of them about the insane mark-ups, and where they make the most money.

On the wholesale end, Diamonds have by far the highest margin and mark-up of any commodity, and unwrought gold has the lowest. If you buy a diamond ring, expect that there is a 1500% mark-up on the stone, if not more, and an overall 1000% mark-up on the ring itself.

Import items in the old world were horribly expensive. They are less-so today, but the mark-up is still gigantic. To go along with your rug-store (I am assuming Persian rugs, as that makes the most sense), the guy selling pieces for from $100 to $1,000 probably has at least a 400% markup on them. If you start selling them for $75 to $750, and you have the same cost as he does, he might lower his prices to match, and compete by selection, assuming he can afford a wider variety. That is expansionary-competition, versus margin-cutting competition.

The latter, his first alternative, is to lower his prices below yours, and have a price war, hoping to drive you out of business, and then raise his prices slowly back up again if you close-up your doors.

If your cost is higher than his, he will be able to undercut even your cost, and you'll be very screwed. being in business longer, with more-and-better contacts, this is easily a possibility.

The third alternative for him is to try to buy you out. This may be for a percentage of your margin: Say, for example, he offers to buy all of your inventory, for that you have a 400% margin, at a fixed price offering you a 300% margin on the while shebang. He is cutting himself and you a deal at once, as although he can get the items for less than this, he can get rid of a competitor, and you will make a deal of money at one time. If your margin is much lower than his, say 200%, you are possibly best-off taking the offer, as he will drive you into the dirt with undercutting when you don't.

Now we'll compare the used item versus new item quandary. I prefer to buy antique jewelry and pipes and such, not new items. I actually like them far better, and they've been made with superior craftsmanship to items made today.

Would it shock you to know that when you walk into a jewelry store with vintage, 19th-Century mens' ring, you can halve them, with higher-quality stones and better gold than rings new out of the kiln? Why? because the jeweler doesn't even pay for the stone when you sell it to him. He pays for its weight. The same goes for a pawn-broker, who sells such items based on their weight, not the appeal , craftsmanship, or quality, because they're old.

The same goes for antique pipes. I picked up a CFP meershaum with 14K gold bands around the shank and the bowl in a leather, form-made, velvet-lined case about eight years back for $50. The gold itself was even then, worth that or more in melt. Just this week I snagged another WDC briar with 14K trim for about $100. If you bought any pipe with gold trim made today, you'd pay over $2,500 for it.

I buy Dunhill pieces from the 1930s though the 1950s for between $50 and $200 each. I paid $400 for a 1950s Dunhill ODB: That is a $4,000 pipe in the Dunhill store if you buy it new. I found a Dunhill-made Hardcastle Straight-grain / quasi flame-grain for around $40; try walking into the Dunhill store and buying a flame-grain or straight-grain for under $2,000.

My 1930s Dunhill Churchwarden set me back around $100. I think that the lowest-priced Dunhill today cots over $400, and their seconds lines (Parker/Hardcastle) start around $75 or so. New items simply cost more than used ones,a nd even unused pre-owned items. I bought a trio of three 1850s (yes, Eighteen-Fifties) WDCs, with amber stems, plus an assortment of extra horn and amber stems, for under $100.

If you have a single amber stem cut today, assuming you can find anyone to cut it, and drill it for you, and a bone tenon to match, it will cost more than $100. That's a custom-made item, and you need to pay for the time and craftsmanship, plus the markup on new materials, and their overhead.

Running a business costs a great deal of money. Rents, employees, contractors, legal fees, taxes, licenses--yes, they even has those in the 12th-Century, and more-so by the 16th and 17th--furnishings, cases, signage, advertising, and what-have-you to run a business.

When you are flogging a used item to a vendor, their offer to pay 1/2 of its retail cost is extremely generous, given that they will make very little on it at that price. Paying 1/8th the retail cost is more reasonable for them, and 1/10th or less the most likely.

If they have no other source for it, they will offer you more. That is, if items, like magical swords are no-longer being made anywhere local, they will give a higher price, as there is demand but no supply. if they can hire a smithy to make a blade, and a mage to enchant it, and have the contact, they will pay far less.

These are important factors to consider for pricing: If magical shoppe are not un-precidented, you might do better to sell items in a smaller city than a larger, as the shoppe owner has a smaller overhead--rents and costs increase in richer districts--and their availability of supply is smaller, or non-extant, or requires importing, which was and still is highly expensive.

As long as the item isn't too valuable for them to ever sell, or have a contact that might want it, then they will possibly be more open to giving you a higher price for it.

Then, we have black-market trade. For this, you need a fence with contacts to sell your item to the highest shadowy figure. This may net you the best deal, but get you on the wrong-side of the law.

Oh yes, and let's not forget one thing: Thieves pay attention. If you are carting around mystical goods and selling them, they will raise a brow nd set in motion people to watch you, or even infiltrate you, and try to steal from you the either the most-valuable, or least-valuable items. The most-valuable, if they want a quick hit, and the least, if they want thefts to go unnoticed, and for a prolonged time.

Even if you set up a shoppe, they may try to do this, by getting hired and waiting for a good opportunity to mill you dry, robbing your items, inventory, tills, vault, or all of the above. A businessman who has been around for a long time is seasoned, and knows how to look after himself, even so far as to paying off the Thief Guild (i.e.protection money) to avoid this, or will have contacts in law-enforcement who can check the background on his staff.

Do you have these benefits?

These are many good reasons that you will ever get full-market-value for your items, because that value is the retail cost from a veteran business owner with contacts and overhead.

I am actually working on classes for Zoria with these sorts of considerations (e.g. black market contacts, government contacts, etc.) as class-features, with the Miscreant being one of those.

In the long-run, I find that characters, in a setting with a real-world economy are best off finding and questing for items that they want, need or will use; in a broken-economy, you can gather items, sell them for 110% of market-value (yes, I have done this) and build their own empire.

In conclusion, the buyer will only pay you full-price if you stumble on them in public and there is no local source for what you are trying to sell, and they believe the item is exactly what you claim. Even then, if they are savvy, they will negotiate the price downward. I have had people flogging 'magical items' before that are fake, with false auras, or temporary powers, especially wands--this is covered under the section in 'Zoria' under 'Creating Wands'--for just this reason: Be careful who you trust. (X|S)

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110Thank you for the welcome. Just so that you know, there will likely be several of us-on posting via this account, and each of us will have a signature (mine being '(X|S)', if you noticed). We're an association of writers and what-have-you, which you might find interesting, as we elaborated upon in this thread.

<...snip...>

another good post.
You and pundit should have a pipe off or whtever it might be called. It will be interesting talking to your various incarnations, a bit like inviting Sibyl round to tea.

I agree to a degree that the party that turns up with loot and wants it shifted quick will take a loss. However, I also think that there is a tendancy in RPGs and D&D in particular to play the NPC merchants as supra geniuses and the PCs as total chumps. There can certainly be reasons why I won't get the current market value from a horde especially if i am selling to a wholeseller. I also agree with the events that would happen if the PCs set up their own magic shop. However it might make for a great little adventure

I actually think that a PC with the right skills can easily talk up the value of an item the bard with the silver tongue can increase the value of a Frost Brand by spinning a tale about it.

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110*snipped*

That's a lot of words there that miss the point.

Adventurers trying to sell a few magic items aren't running a business - they're guys taking out an ad in the Recycler.