Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

First, I think if you're going to say "no magic shops" then you need to back that up with that rest of the game world. It means that magic needs to be really, really rare. And that means that if the PCs do decide to sell a magic item that's come into their possession, that they're going to be able to name their own price and make a small fortune on it.

Too often I see DMs get virulent about "no magic shops in my campaign!" and then every third bandit is carrying a +1 sword. Doesn't make any sense: If there are that many magic swords lying around, then somebody's going to get into the business of trading in them.

In my D&D campaigns, the situation tends to look something like this:

(1) It's pretty easy to get a bespoke item created of whatever you want, assuming you're in a place with spellcasters powerful enough to make it.

(2) Low-level potions and wands are ubiquitous. Alchemists brew 'em up; local churches sell them in exchange for tithes; mage guilds doing fundraisers; etc. Spellcasters from 1st to 5th level are pretty common in my urban areas, and it follows logically that they're going to be creating a supply of such items. Also in this category are "mage-touched" weapons and armor (basically anything with a +1 on it).

(3) Stuff more powerful or unique than that can also be found, but the availability is not guaranteed. It's a question of what people have been selling lately and what the local trader happens to be carrying at the moment.

(4) The really powerful stuff is almost never available for sale. It's like waiting for the "Mona Lisa" to come on the market. Items like that rarely come back on the market; and when they do, there's a lot of attention paid to them.

This might be of interest: The Local Magic Market

Quote from: Justin Alexander;594496First, I think if you're going to say "no magic shops" then you need to back that up with that rest of the game world. It means that magic needs to be really, really rare. And that means that if the PCs do decide to sell a magic item that's come into their possession, that they're going to be able to name their own price and make a small fortune on it.

Too often I see DMs get virulent about "no magic shops in my campaign!" and then every third bandit is carrying a +1 sword. Doesn't make any sense: If there are that many magic swords lying around, then somebody's going to get into the business of trading in them.

You bet. Of course getting that small fortune will be difficult. Its not easy to find a buyer that has that much ready cash. Finding someone with the money to afford your items could be an adventure in itself.

Another reason to hang onto spare items is for replacement due to the hazards of adventuring. So you have a +2 sword gathering dust in a treasure cache because you are using a +3 frost brand. What happens if it gets melted by dragon breath, turned to rust, or just lost in a nigh bottomless chasm? Shit happens and selling all your backup gear isn't the smartest option.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

No. Magic should be magical. Which means not mundane.

QuoteIn your fantasy do you allow players to buy and sell magic items as common goods?  Or do they remain specialties?

Minor magic items, perhaps. Powerful items, no.

For example, in Hellfrost alchemical devices (one shot magic items) are relatively common (although certain items may be rare), but relics (permanent magic items) are extremely rare and never available on the open market, ever. Finding even one is significant.

QuoteIn your non-fantasy, what about the BFGs?  Hard to find, hard to fence?  Or liquid?

Depends on the setting. Trying to buy a Northern Gun plasma ejector in Ishpeming is probably not hard. Trying to get a high tech sniper rifle in the modern world probably needs special contacts and a good deal of effort.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;594419A bit off topic, but I don't understand how this would make any sense logically.  Even if the magic item isn't 'magical' for these purposes, it is still an item...  A magical pickaxe (minus the magic) is no less hard or sharp than a pen-knife.

Simple: The walls are covered with a spell that deflects or repels all mystical objects and spells or powers. The barrier does not deflect matter, but the mystical field of an object is repelled by it, similar to a positive to positive magnetic charge.

I think this really should be determined by the setting. Personally I lean toward few to no magic shops (or at least not have them be like a corner store). But if the setting assumes widespread magic and they fit well, I have no issue with them being in a game. Where I think it becomes an issue in D&D is the books taking a one size fits all approach, where there is an expectation that they will be regularly available in towns of a certain size. What I would pike to see in the next DMG is a more involved discussion on the different approaches to magic shops and the logic behind them, then let the GM decide what fits his campaign best.

Quote from: estar;594277Let's turn it this around







What makes magic shops so different than any other luxury item shop?

"Magic shops" can plausibly exist in any setting where shops that deals in high value, compact, luxury items can exist. For that matter where merchants dealing in warhorses, fine weaponry and plate armor exist.

How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?

If you are going to make luxury item stores that sell objects that are intrinsically difficult to make, taking a great deal of time, skill and knowledge, then they would be sparse, or not seen at all.

The first question to ask yourself is: 'Who is crafting the items for this store" and 'What is the source of supply?'. If the owner is not making items, then someone is either making them for him, or finding them somewhere. If they are being made, the process is slow, tedious, and probably requires very rare materials.

Think about it this way: You do not pour gold coins into a machine that pops out magical hammers. The price affixed to items (the material cost) is far-higher than the materials they seem to use. A magical book is a good example. if you can buy a blank book for 1sp, then why is a magical tome 100,000gp in value? The spells used to enchant it cost nothing in and of themselves, so what is the material cost going toward?

Special materials, rare ingredients, alien matter, or whatever meet your fancy as a storyteller; that's what.

Therefore, where is a guy who sits at a workbench all day cranking out items getting their supply of these materials? Who is going out and killing Daleks to bring them Dalek-eyes by the hundreds?

Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

QuoteReading the posts in the thread it seems to me that the dividing line is whether magic items are special or not. Or more specifically whether ALL magic items are special. Along with if not all Magic Items are special which are not and which ones are.

For some a +1 sword is special, for others +3 and up are special and +2 is just very valuable weaponry.

This is true of any game. The only point of having a magic store that sells more than the most basic commodities is to allow players to be lazy in finding them, having them made, or making them on their own.

A church selling the mot simple healing elixir is not out of line, as the priests can make it, and can get materials for a simple item without great problem. Perhaps it is little more than a bit of mold from a local tree, or a kind of herb that is somewhat mystical that they grow and use to make it.

A mage selling simple scrolls, such as 'See Magic' might only need paper, some powdered quartz and the tools to make ink out of the crystals and some form of pigment and oils.

The more complex the item, the more intricate the parts needed to construct it may be, and the less likely anyone would just be making them for general sale.

Also ask yourself, 'how many people in this society can afford to contract for such an item to be made?', 'how many can afford the components used to make it?', or even 'how many can afford that item at all?'...

Nobody can run a successful business in a market where they can.t sell their wares due to not having a proper economy for it. You don't see people with stores selling (genuine) Diamond-encrusted gold lighters in the slums. That isn't just because of the risk of robbery, it is because nobody would be able to buy them, and they would soon go out of business.

If an item costs 25,000gp, which is more than most single kingdoms on Earth have ever had in history, then how can a store exist that sells the item?

That also boils down to the actual value of money. The horde of Smaug, collected by the folk of Durin over thousands of years, was valued as 'the wealth of many mortal kings'. Let's picture that as the contents of Fort Knox: About 650-million ounces troy. That is 650,000,000gp. The wealth in gold of a significant portion of then entire world, which has been accumulated over centuries from all-over the planet.

If you compare that to the population of the States, around 312-million, that divvies up to about 2-1/8gp per person. How can anyone justify even 5,000gp as pocket-change? Are GP the size of a fleck of dust?

If not, then how much of any single metal is in your setting? Having something cost as much of a planet makes sens3 if you have a Galactic Empire, but not if you have a one-world Middle-Ages setting where it was even harder to acquire.

I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?
<...snip....>.

I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

all good especially the last bit.

but the other side of the coin is how much treasure do PCs find and how common are "adventurers."
if you use D&D as written then a typical 10th level Lord Fighter has probably found 50 - 90 magic swords by that point in his career. Now that is a fuck load of magic swords where do they all end up? how many parties of that sort of level in the world? 1? 10? 100?
If your party sees lots of magic then the setting should reflect that logically

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835How about a cocaine shoppe, or a shoppe selling only oil lamps and oil-lamp supplies, or hand-wrought silver and gold? How often do you see these luxury-item stores in the world today?

I wouldn't say quite often but where they are is quite predictable. In higher population cities, or cities where trade routes converge for particular luxury items. For example Venice in the Renaissance as a trade route example, and Constantinople throughout the Middle Ages as a population example.

Since by mid level to upper levels PC are wealthy individuals, if everything goes right, they gravitate to high population locales to gain access to rare and hard to find items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If you are going to make luxury item stores that sell objects that are intrinsically difficult to make, taking a great deal of time, skill and knowledge, then they would be sparse, or not seen at all.

I never argue they wouldn't be, however when it is stated that a magic shop would never exist because of X then I will debate the point as historically there were places for the wealthy to purchase or commission high-value and rare items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835The first question to ask yourself is: 'Who is crafting the items for this store" and 'What is the source of supply?'. If the owner is not making items, then someone is either making them for him, or finding them somewhere. If they are being made, the process is slow, tedious, and probably requires very rare materials.

Yup and my price lists and frequency charts take that into account. If it takes finite resources, finite time, and a near certain chance of success to make an item then there will be a market for it. It what people do.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Therefore, where is a guy who sits at a workbench all day cranking out items getting their supply of these materials? Who is going out and killing Daleks to bring them Dalek-eyes by the hundreds?

The law of supply and demand. If only ten Dalek-eyes appear every year then the price of items made from Dalek-eyes will reflect that. Provided if there is a demand for the particular type of items made from Dalek-eyes.

If you are trying to construct a plausible scenario for why there are no magic item shops. One way is to require specific and rare components to create them. This esstentially makes each item a Mona Lisa or a Statue of David. The economy that deals with these types of items will be a privileged one that relies solely on auctions and private sales with items only being sold once per generation if even that.

Another way to make the process of making magic items unreliable or esstentially random. This also puts them into the category of a Mona Lisa or Statue of David.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

That how your campaign works and your opinion. Others, like myself, have a different opinion and our campaigns work differently in regards to magic-items. Both approaches can be made to work and be fun for the players.

The only problem comes when a referee sets up his campaign with the conditions that allows for magic shop but arbitrarily decides they don't exist. This occurs when the referee allows PCs to create magic items and the math works out that there ought to be more items available. Or that he uses a high restricted magic item creation system, yet every bandit is equipped with a +1 sword.

To that the fix is simple either change the premise of your campaign or change the rules to reflect the premise.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835This is true of any game. The only point of having a magic store that sells more than the most basic commodities is to allow players to be lazy in finding them, having them made, or making them on their own.

That is your judgment not mine. From my point of view there is little different in spending a 1,000 gp to buy a +1 sword or spending a 1,000 gp to outfit and pay a company of 20 fighters to work for you. In the hands of a ingenious player that 1,000 gp is going to translate into increased power no matter what you do as a referee. So you might as well learn to work with it and learn how to make the campaign work with the added power.

And the reason I have this point of view is that because I ran the Majestic Wilderlands for nearly 30 years now. I had campaigns where players started out impoverished and stayed that way, I had  campaigns where people started as rulers of realms, and everything in between. The challenge for me was to learn how all of these different types of campaigns fun and enjoyable for the players. And this included learning how to incorporate magic shops in a way that is fun for the players yet still kept the campaign a challenge.

So when I see these pronouncements that X is bad or X could never exist. I point out they are the result of how you spin the various dials for your setting and not a truism.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Also ask yourself, 'how many people in this society can afford to contract for such an item to be made?', 'how many can afford the components used to make it?', or even 'how many can afford that item at all?'...

Again the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand and a low supply the price of the item will be high. All the things you mentioned are ways of ensuring a low supply by making the item difficult to make.  And with the high price comes the fact that only the wealthy will be able to afford them. And because magic items have a utility value and some are dangerous the powerful will seek to control access to them.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Nobody can run a successful business in a market where they can.t sell their wares due to not having a proper economy for it. You don't see people with stores selling (genuine) Diamond-encrusted gold lighters in the slums.

Again where did I say that? I pointed out specifically that in my campaigns  magic items are sold in one of several different ways depending on their pricing and rarity. Over the counter, over the counter but not available often, commissioned, and private auctions.

A slum magic item shop would likely only be selling minor potions and charms (like a +1 one time bonus to save), and maybe doing some commission work for the Thieves Guild.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835That isn't just because of the risk of robbery, it is because nobody would be able to buy them, and they would soon go out of business.

Supply and Demand, even if there is only 1 of something it will have a value. There are no true priceless items. Now the price may not be paid in coins. It may be only traded between kings, high nobles, and other people of great power and influence. For example the alliance between Dunador and Erewhon is sealed by the transfer of the legendary +3 sword Caladan from Erewhon to Dunador.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If an item costs 25,000gp, which is more than most single kingdoms on Earth have ever had in history, then how can a store exist that sells the item?

First off the gold piece in D&D is ahistorical. The medieval economy was based on the silver piece. There are various figures for medieval income for kings. For example in 1485 the King of England earned 29,000 pounds from their crown lands (personal property).  Since there are 240 silver pennies per pound that is 6,960,000 silver pieces from his lands along. Extrapolating D&D gold pieces from that at AD&D 1st's 20 sp to 1 gp we get
384,000 gp in revenue. This is not including scutage and customs duties. And this only the king's income, not the income of any of his subjects.

So I have to say that if a referee is trying to use realistic emulation for his setting that it is perfectly plausible to have some trade in unique high value items.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835That also boils down to the actual value of money. The horde of Smaug, collected by the folk of Durin over thousands of years, was valued as 'the wealth of many mortal kings'. Let's picture that as the contents of Fort Knox: About 650-million ounces troy. That is 650,000,000gp. The wealth in gold of a significant portion of then entire world, which has been accumulated over centuries from all-over the planet.

Again the AD&D gold piece is ahistorical, you are correct in saying that many troy ounces of gold would not reasonably exist. But also understand that prices adjust to the available supply of money. So whatever you set the total amount of gold there will be a price that somebody will be willing to sell the most valuable item for given the right circumstances.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If you compare that to the population of the States, around 312-million, that divvies up to about 2-1/8gp per person. How can anyone justify even 5,000gp as pocket-change? Are GP the size of a fleck of dust?

Historically, silver pieces were the size of a dime, and gold pieces ranged from dime sized to quarter sized.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835If not, then how much of any single metal is in your setting? Having something cost as much of a planet makes sens3 if you have a Galactic Empire, but not if you have a one-world Middle-Ages setting where it was even harder to acquire.

I use a silver based price system drawn from research done by myself and the Harn fanbase. I created my OD&D magic item price list by establishing a baseline for a +1 sword by comparing it to historical luxury items. Then I judged the value of other items in relation to the +1 sword. Then I took the prices and derived the cost of making them. Which also include the time it takes to make them.

And to make sure that the cost and time logically produces the prices for the items, I priced the items first and came up with the cost and creation time second.

Which btw is what I recommend for anybody wanting to do this. Make the price list first and then extrapolate the creation cost and time from that.

http://www.batintheattic.com/download/Magic%20Costs%20Rev%205.pdf

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835I prefer to be able to justify anything in my stories with logic, not just state it and have it unquestionably accepted and I tend to break games where logic is not used in the creation of the setting.

As do I. The main thing that you are missing is how economic rules apply to the creation of magic item creation. And that you can manipulate that to produce the type of economy (or lack of) you want for magic items.

@Mages Guild

You may want to take a look at Adventurer, Conqueror, King. There the designer took the time and effort to harmonize the treasure system, the magic item costs, and the trade system so that it all logically fits together.

One simple answer for the magic shop, which has been mostly pointed out so far, is just have one in a major city, located either in or right next to the wealthiest district. They have lots of potions and scrolls, and even some of the more powerful magic items. The cost for these items is anywhere from 3 to 20 times their price in the DMG.

Quote from: danbuter;594865One simple answer for the magic shop, which has been mostly pointed out so far, is just have one in a major city, located either in or right next to the wealthiest district. They have lots of potions and scrolls, and even some of the more powerful magic items. The cost for these items is anywhere from 3 to 20 times their price in the DMG.

and what do you do when the PCs start flogging their superfluous magic items for 10 times the price in the DMG?

Quote from: jibbajibba;594838if you use D&D as written then a typical 10th level Lord Fighter has probably found 50 - 90 magic swords by that point in his career.

Thats not true of all D&D. BECMI has no assumptions about magic items, for example, and the commonality of magic items in that version as written, while it gives some suggestions, is that it is up to DM discretion.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;594871Thats not true of all D&D. BECMI has no assumptions about magic items, for example, and the commonality of magic items in that version as written, while it gives some suggestions, is that it is up to DM discretion.

Fair enough I was going from 1e & 2e

If you look at typical 1e/2e hordes or treasure and what you find at random compared to what you need to do to advance in levels then chances are using the RAW you will have found a fuck load of magic swords (even if 15% of them are cursed ).

My point is that in those versions of D&D PCs get a lot of magic items. I never really played 3e but from what I hear this is even more true with expectation and ability to procure at reasonable cost built into the rules and more so at 4e.
If you use those rules for the party then most parties do end up with a lot of excess stuff. Again if you ahve a game where 'adventurers' are common enough that when a PC dies another available replacement just happens to be wondering by on his pony, drinking in a nearby tavern, etc etc ...  then there will be a magic item economy of some type.
Now if you make magic rare and items each unique so a 10th level fighter has 3 or 4 magic items and has seen perhaps 2 dozen then that changes things but as we discussed at length recently in various threads it also changes the rest of the game.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Think about it this way: You do not pour gold coins into a machine that pops out magical hammers. The price affixed to items (the material cost) is far-higher than the materials they seem to use. A magical book is a good example. if you can buy a blank book for 1sp, then why is a magical tome 100,000gp in value? The spells used to enchant it cost nothing in and of themselves, so what is the material cost going toward?. . .  Even a scroll or portion os made of more than just paper and ink or water and glass. In any epic tale, or piece of high-fantasy literature, if you want to make a mystical item, you need inherently mystical materials from which to craft it. Therefore, someone needs to supply the materials to the mage making the items.

Consider this example.

Quote from: 1e AD&D DMG, p. 117An example of a formula for the ink required to scribe a protection from petrification spell is shown below:

1 oz. giant squid sepia
1 basilisk eye
3 cockatrice feathers
1 scruple of venom from a medusa‘s snakes
1 large peridot, powdered
1 medium topaz, powdered
2 drams holy water
6 pumpkin seeds

Harvest the pumpkin in the dark of the moon and dry the seeds over a slow fire of sandalwood and horse dung. Select three perfect ones and grind them into a coarse meal, husks and all. Boil the basilisk eye and cockatrice feathers for exactly 5 minutes in a saline solution, drain, and place in a jar. Add the medusa’s snake venom and gem powders. Allow to stand for 24 hours, stirring occasionally. Pour off liquid into bottle, add sepia and holy ,water, mixing contents with a silver rod, stirring widdershins. Makes ink sufficient for one scroll.

With this in mind, I once created a halfling character who's goal in life was to run a magical components supply business, which means he tended to scavenge all sorts of stuff on our adventures.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594835Not using this certainly makes the story flat and the items lacklustre.

Yes, it does.

That sounds like some classic Infinity Plus One sword fucking up right there.

If you can beat up a basilisk, a medusa, and a cocktrice and harvest body parts from them then why do you need protection from petrification again? Especially for one fight, when you had to go through at least three just to make the damn thing.