When players in my game try to buy magic items I make a 2d6 CHA check, modified by "market modifier"

Usually they are offered bunk trash, i.e. balding/impotence "cures" and talismans and amulets with claims of puissant protective qualities that don't pan out.

On a good roll(12+), they might find something for sale at outrageous prices, atc which point I break out the Arduin/OSR/etc. and arbitrarily pick out something that's for sale. At an outrageous price. (I should look into Palladium stuff for this category).

When they complain to the merchants about the selection the merchants inform them that they are welcome to enter dungeons, recover magic items, and sell them to the merchants to correct this problem.

In practice, most of the time people will try to sell you crap, but sometimes you might find something expensive and weird.

I usually play 3.5, and in that edition, there were actual rules on magical item creation.  I just recently described a high level character that focuses on magical item creation.  He happens to be a vampire, and he doesn't really have a lot going on, but keeping a low profile is important to him.  

He wouldn't run a magic-shop, per se.  But he does have contact with a merchant with a reputation for 'being able to find what you need'.  

That type of character - one that can establish relationships with magical item makers (or hoarders) and help them find a buyer can be immensely useful.  If the party knows who he is, they tell him what they're looking for and he does some checking with his contacts.  Assuming that the item is available or can be made, he can set it up with the party (usually with half up front and the other half due on delivery).  

If magical item creation is done (ie, not all items are artifacts from a distant past when magic was stronger) there are some really good reasons for magical item exchanges (shops) to make sense.

1) Everyone has an interest in acquiring magical items for 'their side'.  I may not need a +1 longsword today, but I might need one tomorrow.  Keeping the shop open is in my best interest.

2) If I purchase magical items, I have a vested interest in keeping that shop accessible to myself.  That means that I'm inclined to defend the proprietor if he gets attacked.  If all the customers that have purchased magical items are of the same mind, that could be a lot of people you'd upset by going after the proprietor - even if he isn't a badass (see the guy who knows people).  

3) This one is a little harder to explain, but I'll try.  Let's say I'm a 20th level badass.  I have a +2 flaming longsword.  I really, really want to see someone use it to kill bad guys.  (I have a +5 holy avenger if you're wondering why I want to give this sword away).  Now, I could give it to the first Level 1 Fighter that looks like he's going to be using it to stab evil people in the face - but what if he dies and evil people get their hands on it?  That'd be bad.  A magic shop requires a major investment to ensure that people don't take the product lightly.  If I allow my Temple to 'sell' the item on my behalf, I know that someone was willing to trade 18,000 gp for that weapon, I first know that they're competent enough to have acquired that kind of money and that they're invested in getting a return out of it - the way that they might not if I just gave it away.  This is a little like why banks want you to put 20% down for a home.  On the surface, it doesn't make sense. I give you $20,000, and you give me $100,000?  That's like making $80,000 for nothing!  But that money goes to a third party and the only way to get my 'investment' back is to pay off the loan.  Putting an expensive price tag is similar to putting it at the center of a dungeon.

I don't personally like the idea of the "magic shop" at all, and wouldn't use it in all but the most unusual kind of campaign.  However, I don't buy the idea that it couldn't exist because "it'd be broken into".  By that logic, banks and jewelry stores and gun stores all wouldn't exist.

Rather, what this idea does mean is that if there were magic stores, they'd look in many ways like gun stores or banks: they'd have very high levels of security.

RPGPundit

This just seems so right to post here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html

Quote from: RPGPundit;594154I don't personally like the idea of the "magic shop" at all, and wouldn't use it in all but the most unusual kind of campaign.  However, I don't buy the idea that it couldn't exist because "it'd be broken into".  By that logic, banks and jewelry stores and gun stores all wouldn't exist.

Rather, what this idea does mean is that if there were magic stores, they'd look in many ways like gun stores or banks: they'd have very high levels of security.

RPGPundit

Hmmm, yes. Or it could be that the items were useless until they were "activated" with a magic word. Or the store could have a way of deactivating stolen items. Or sending a curse onto them....

Not all security involves obvious force or threat of simple violence, my friend. A clever (sadistic) GM could come up with a ton of fun ways to make players regret ever robbing Mr. Mage's Arcana Warehouse....

I think the problem with the magic shop is more the shop than the magic. The resemblance to any kind of modern store feels weird in a time period when people are more likely to buy and sell in open air markets, with caravans, or by interacting directly with people who make the items. And given the high cost, magic items might be more likely to be exchanged for the same reasons and under the same circumstances as land and such.

Quote from: mcbobbo;593126What is your opinion on the idea of a magic shop or similar source of powerful equipment in your game?

I can understand the idea of a magic shop. I cannot imagine a shop for "powerful equipment".

If there is a shop for it that sells to customers passing by, then the items sold will be common in the place, not especially powerful. There might be a shop for flying brooms and one for crystall balls. But then you have thoroughly magical world like Harry Potter.

If you want a powerful item, like a fighter jet, you might be able to buy it. But authorities probably have the taps on it, producers will be rare, production will be expensive and it will take time.

Quote from: 1of3;594191I can understand the idea of a magic shop. I cannot imagine a shop for "powerful equipment".

If there is a shop for it that sells to customers passing by, then the items sold will be common in the place, not especially powerful. There might be a shop for flying brooms and one for crystall balls. But then you have thoroughly magical world like Harry Potter.

If you want a powerful item, like a fighter jet, you might be able to buy it. But authorities probably have the taps on it, producers will be rare, production will be expensive and it will take time.

If a campaign wanted a realistically emulated magic shop then they should look at how warhorses, plate armor, silk, jewelry, and other high value luxury good were created and sold.

Magic shops can be justified in any RPG system where it take a certain amount of time, resources, and skill to create magic items.

And for what it worth "shops" as we know it today did not exist in ancient or medieval times. Instead what you did is visit an individual who made or has access to various items and interacted with them personally. "The Magic Shop" is an individual or group of individuals who buy and sell magic items.

For common items you can walk into their establishment and barter a deal and get what you need the same day if you are looking for just limited quantities.

For uncommon items there is a chance they may have it. You can deposit a sum with them and have them reserve the item when they run across it. Or simply contract them to find the item and pay them a finder's fee plus the cost.

For rare items if you are a king or high noble you can do the above, otherwise you will have to wait for one of the periodic auction and bid for the item. The auctions are well-protected and in a secure location. Likely you have to secure some type of license to even bid for such an item or hire a qualified bidder to attend the auction for you.

The heart of the system will be control. Control to gain to gain economic power of a monopoly, control competition, for the state to isolate malevolent items, and for the state/wealthy to get the choice picks of items coming to sale.

In general the freebooters adventurers like the PCs won't get screwed over as it is not in the best interest of all concerned to mess around with people trying to sell to them. However the PCs will be at the bottom of the heap in trying to gain what they want. And if they try to buck the system then the consequences will be dire both immediate and in the future.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593360It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare. Maybe eevery magic item is inhabited by its own daemon, so it has its own personality, foibles, etc. So actually getting a hold of a sword or a plow that does what its supposed to all the time and doesnt talk back or throw tantrums is a relief.

This reminds me of a very interesting trap for magic-heavy characters. Surround them in a room, a cube, a sphere, a whatever. The walls are completely impervious to magic: So much so, that mystical weapons cannot mar them. Normal, simple, mundane tools on the other hand, can chew through them as normal.

This type of trick generally takes a great deal of time to solve, as characters will toss spells at it, smash at it with everything in their arsenal--except the pocketknife, or other goods they might still have from day-one.

When the players do resolve it, they are generally frustrated, and the intense shock and surprise at how easy it was in the end makes for a jolly good time. This is very appropriate for settings where mystical power is commonplace, and quite logical, as few would think that if their enchanted pickaxe couldn't break through, that an ordinary hammer would.

Quote from: Gib;593602If you're stingy enough, and I am, unwanted magic items aren't a thing.

Precisely: If the characters can actually state that they have too many mystical items and need to unload, then they will, if done by the book, be gaining too much money; if you are giving XP to match the value of found treasure, they are also advancing too rapidly.

How rapidly do you want them to unload their mystical items and raise an army and take over your world with it? I've shown Monty Hall DMs how easily this can be achieved, and made them sit up straight and wide-eyed when they wake-up to how my plans all fit together.

The other way to look it is this: If the item is the wrong shape, the reforge it or re-shape it to suit your needs. A +2 trident is useless? Why not reforge it into a +2 Mace? What part of the item is actually magical? If it is only a component of it, then is that component transferable to something else?

A creative player can find a way to do this. If it is something entirely useless, like a circlet of swimming on a desert planet, then why is it there at all? Perhaps it is time for an adventure hook to make use of it.

Perhaps someone out there wants it for a museum, or perhaps that trident is also a key to something, and not useless at all, at all.

The way to ensure that mystical items need not be unloaded, and thus never need 'magical stores' is to make them special in a manner other than just being rare. Give the item a story...

Even a simple +1 Longsword is special if it has a history, a purpose, and enriches the tale. The same is true of mundane items. The Fist of Saeros (an Adamantium mace, shaped as a fist with a spiked bracelet) from my own stories is non-magical, but it is possible to make it so by attaching a mystical enhancer to the threaded end; these can be made as a normal item, and then be interchanged as needed. Even as a mundane object, it is the ultimate symbol of authority in the Empire, and beyond that, because of the psychic imprint left on it over thousands of centuries, it enhances the wielder's ability to command or influence others, with no magic or psychic powers involved.

It also can be used to parry spells with no penalty, which is due to the history of the maker, not the item. The number of times it was used for that purpose made it supernaturally able to do so for anyone.

Again, this is a story detail. The last time it surfaced, a player discovered its properties accidentally, and never all of them. The item has no aura under any form of divination. This alone made the player stop and wonder about other 'mundane' items that the group uncovered in ancient places, and made some other interesting discoveries that tied into, and furthered the story.

I suppose it all comes down to a matter of whether you wish to make items special, and not just blocks of numbers on a piece of paper. Even giving an item a name leads the player, if they aren't a wet fish, to delve into its history. Perhaps that +2 trident has unusual marking on it in an unknown language--ensuring that divination spells do not instantly reveal the meaning--and that it has an unknown history.

That means that you can turn the item into a story of its own, and expand on whatever else is happening. naturally, if all you do is run a hack'n'slash game of kill the monster and steal the treasure, this won't work; I never run that sort of game, and they almost always turn out badly, or end abruptly when the characters can kill even the gods.

The end question is: What kind of game do you want to play? if you want a Monty Hall game, be ready to face the consequences, and be ready for your players overrule any story that you have in mind at any time, laughing all the way.

From my understanding, blacksmithing in the ancient and medieval worlds were not there to sell mass produced items.  I'm of a mind to treat a 'magic shop' as a place where someone can get consumable items (like potions, scrolls, etc) and to -sell- magic items.  If you want one commissioned, it's the same as getting a fine sword made.  It will take a lot of cash and many months. This has been one of the things which has made me keep D&D at arm's length for many years - the magic item economy implies mass production technologies.  While that may be fine in an MMO, for a table top RPG experience that sours the deal for me.

When I get back to running D&D style fantasy, that's probably the way I will handle it.  Magic items will be available, but it will be as rare and special as a getting a fine suit of armor or a sword made by a craftsman.

One way that I've heard of folks preserving the D&D style item economy while not having the items be overtly 'magic' is to say that the various plus items are simply very well crafted gear.  However, that doesn't survive into mid to high level play.

I like that 4E introduced inherent bonuses.  3.x and PF don't have anything similar, to my knowledge.

Quote from: Internet Death;593145The concept of a "magic shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "magic shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

Let's turn it this around

QuoteThe concept of a "jewelry shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "jewelry shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

QuoteThe concept of a "spice shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "spice shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

QuoteThe concept of a "goldsmith shop" is so ludicrous that it actually kind of pisses me off.  Where do you set up this so-called "goldsmith shop" so that it isn't constantly attacked from all sides by brigands and villains who want all that neat stuff?

What makes magic shops so different than any other luxury item shop?

"Magic shops" can plausibly exist in any setting where shops that deals in high value, compact, luxury items can exist. For that matter where merchants dealing in warhorses, fine weaponry and plate armor exist.

Reading the posts in the thread it seems to me that the dividing line is whether magic items are special or not. Or more specifically whether ALL magic items are special. Along with if not all Magic Items are special which are not and which ones are.

For some a +1 sword is special, for others +3 and up are special and +2 is just very valuable weaponry.

Quote from: TristramEvans;593360It'd be interesting to have a setting where magic items are incredibly common, but non-magical items are precious and rare.

Vaguely like Darksword? I always wondered if that system was any good.


As to the topic, it depends on the system and setting. For quick reference though, remember that in 3.5, a fifth level spell scroll costs less than a suit of full plate. You can buy four 1st level scrolls for the cost of one chaib shirt. If you're letting your players buy armor off the shelf but not scrolls, you're not really being honest about the relative values (YMMV with other editions, but the principle will hold true even if the break points are different). That's not universally true; FantasyCraft (for example) uses a separate resource for magic than for mundane. FC also makes magic-marts trivially easy to construct though, so it's not exactly a wild success.

I think I like the Exalted approach best (I know, I know), though you have to cobble it together out of the 2E rules and the (excellent) 1E splatbook those rules were simplified from: originally part of an item's "cost" was how central it is to your character. If you pay more xp, the expectation is that the GM doesn't screw with thieves taking it any more than he says "and while you're sleeping, a bear eats your arm". If you pay less, it's subject to getting broken, lost, etc. In 2E, the rules became "the GM makes up a price!" but it also suggested requiring characters who want to keep items to buy them as backgrounds. That makes a lot of sense: if you pay for the item, it becomes part of your story (King Arthur and Excalibur); if you don't pay, it's just a thing you have (King Arthur's armor). Unfortunately, Exalted segues nicely into another topic: item creation.

Item creation is a problem in every system. Generally, it allows you to turn downtime into mechanical advantage, and that's bad. With Dnd and friends, it also impacts magic shops. If magic items strongly affect the game (they do), and some classes, but not all, have the ability "get whatever item you want" (crafting), all the other classes need a way to get their hand on items too so they can keep playing the same game. The strain which item shops place on any game is less than the strain of one player having all the toys and another having none.

Finally, a point on what a "magic item shop" looks like. It's not a gun shop. It's definitely not a Walmart. Sure, there might be low level wands, scrolls, items sitting around in a storefront; maybe even one or two actually nice things under a glass counter. The real bones of the operation is going to look like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark though. Unless its a shoestring operation the only place you're going to find lots of items is a place which already deals in high values and has a lot of storage space. That means you're looking at import/export businesses. They already have guards, but your biggest obstacle is telling whether a given barrel is full of vorpal swords or exotic dye. Also, even if they have exactly what you want all the time, there's a good chance that it's somewhere else, i.e. not there to steal. It will likely get there fast though, because you're dealing with professional shippers.

Let it die. Let it die good and slow.

I'll read the thread later, promise.

Quote from: MagesGuild;594209This reminds me of a very interesting trap for magic-heavy characters. Surround them in a room, a cube, a sphere, a whatever. The walls are completely impervious to magic: So much so, that mystical weapons cannot mar them. Normal, simple, mundane tools on the other hand, can chew through them as normal.

A bit off topic, but I don't understand how this would make any sense logically.  Even if the magic item isn't 'magical' for these purposes, it is still an item...  A magical pickaxe (minus the magic) is no less hard or sharp than a pen-knife.