Quote from: RPGPundit;598496So this is nothing against you specifically, you don't matter to me enough. Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit

:hatsoff:

After all, the guy didn't play roleplaying games. This is not the forum for him.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598479So, in comparison to the 'the Magic Shop' in the OP, how often do your PCs  actually commision items to be made?  How does it fit, and if you don't use it a lot, is there a reason you don't or do you think you should use it more?

Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

Quote from: The Traveller;598505Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

That last one is a strange and quirky take.  Not bad, just very different.

And the term 'Keeping magic magical' is possibly a keeper.

Not much has been made in this thread about the differences between new and old school

Older D&D assumes an essentially post-apocalyptic world; whatever previous cultures existed, magic was more common, and these things show up in hoards under ground with quite a bit of frequency.  But they're a bitch to make in the modern day.

It reinforces the viewpoint of some of the posters, Melan and Amacris come to mind, that adventurers "*might* sell their surplus, but the items would be auctioned, found in curio shops or collector's halls, or become property of the local nobility - all the kinds of things that might happen to relics or art pieces.  They wouldn't end up in the local pawn shop.

This problem of buying, selling, crafting, and commoditizing magic items only seems like an artifact of recent editions, where the world is much more 'high fantasy' and 'high magic' and the ability to craft items is ubiquitous in the setting.

I tend to be partial to the ACKS approach, and also like the analogy to reselling jewelry and the huge mark ups.  If the players were committed to running a magic business and thought that was more fun than actual adventures, I'd probably hand in my DMing card.

Quote from: The Traveller;598505Generally again I think simply exchanging gold for magical items is a bit of a let down in terms of keeping the magic magical. This is an area where D&D in particular goes a bit mad, which is just the style of the game really. I'd prefer magical items to require at least some heavy questing to be completed, if they can be commissioned at all.

Isn't that for the players and not the PCs?  Would magic to the denizens really be all that magical?

Quote from: The Traveller;598505More quirky yet is the Warehouse 13 take, where magical items spontaneously come into being when someone does something truly remarkable, although trying to make one on purpose like that isn't likely to succeed. A fantasy equivalent might be convincing supernatural powers or patrons to invest some of their energies into the item.

Earthdawn does this and it's one of the things I like most about the game.  There are also downsides to letting that sword that killed X  become magical.  That sword is now part of that person and if that person is still around and has lost that sword, that sword can be used against him.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598522Isn't that for the players and not the PCs?  Would magic to the denizens really be all that magical?

It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

Will there be cake?

This is a joyous day!

Quote from: Beedo;598519Older D&D assumes an essentially post-apocalyptic world; whatever previous cultures existed, magic was more common, and these things show up in hoards under ground with quite a bit of frequency.  But they're a bitch to make in the modern day.

So, older D&D is...Adventure Time?

Quote from: TristramEvans;598569So, older D&D is...Adventure Time?

Pfffttt!  Youngster with your newfangled cartoon reference.


More like Thundarr the Barbarian  

Quote from: Justin Alexander;598562It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

Yes, that is the point I have been trying to make.    The frequency distribution of magic on a graph with the power level of said magic can actually ber plotted on a graph, and is in the hands of the GM.  If the GM sets up a situation (especially set up with the right mechanics to match the setting) where magic is somewhat rare and wonderful, it will be rare and wonderful to the PCs as well as the other denizens in the world.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;598562It depends on how common magic is. Excalibur, for example, was certainly magical to the people around King Arthur because magic swords weren't a dime a dozen.

It's why I get annoyed when people assert that their players don't think +1 swords are awesome because there are magic item shops. No, your players don't think +1 swords are awesome because they've found 19 of them.

More generally, I think trying to put the magic back in a "+1 sword" by limiting their availability is mostly wasted effort. Because even if I, as a player, almost never see a +1 sword in your campaign, over the course of my gaming career I've already seen dozens and dozens of them. My response to them has been conditioned and you will almost certainly not be in exclusive control of my gaming activity long enough to reverse that conditioning.

In terms of the general gaming population, that ship sailed somewhere around 1974 and in the era of Diablo and World of Warcraft it's not coming back into port.

So if you're actually interested in making magic items feel magical again, then you're going to have to a use a body of techniques -- like the ones I describe in Putting the "Magic" in Magic Items -- that will be effective whether magic items are common or not.

D&D implied setting has magic as common.

Quote from: RPGPundit;598496Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit

Damn dude, took you long enough.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598487Common magic items are common because of the 'power' needed to create them isn't very high.  The rarity of items is still there, because PCs want specific items that take more 'power' to create.

No, I get that.  I am just seeing the table dynamic that some percentage of gamers will get fussy because they have packs full of firetwigs and lightstones for convenience of plot or whatever, but a +1 sword is a borderline artefact.  Is it a large percentage?  I dunno, it could be high enough to be a fairly common nuisance complaint, but I certainly don't think it will approach 100% or anything.  A firm hand and non-negotiable explanation at the start will be critical.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598615D&D implied setting has magic as common.

Depends on which version.  The earlier versions were actually pretty slim on the magic items, regardless of what the modules had in them.  Proper treasure placement using guidelines in the DMG and MM would lead to magic being on the rare side more than abundant.

Quote from: Beedo;598519Not much has been made in this thread about the differences between new and old school

Challenge accepted.

Quote from: Bill;598566Will there be cake?

The cake is a lie.

Quote from: StormBringer;598765No, I get that.  I am just seeing the table dynamic that some percentage of gamers will get fussy because they have packs full of firetwigs and lightstones for convenience of plot or whatever, but a +1 sword is a borderline artefact.  Is it a large percentage?  I dunno, it could be high enough to be a fairly common nuisance complaint, but I certainly don't think it will approach 100% or anything.  A firm hand and non-negotiable explanation at the start will be critical.

That's a problem with random treasure tables.

Quote from: StormBringer;598765Depends on which version.  The earlier versions were actually pretty slim on the magic items, regardless of what the modules had in them.  Proper treasure placement using guidelines in the DMG and MM would lead to magic being on the rare side more than abundant.

They were?
Treasure chart for magic items in MM1
A. Any 3: 30%
B. Sword, armor, or misc. weapon: 10%
C. Any 2: 10%
D. Any 2 plus 1 potion: 15%
E. Any 3 plus I scroll: 25%
F. Any 3 except swords or misc. weapons, plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 30%
G. Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%
H. Any 4 plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 15%
I.  Any 1: 15%
S. 2-8 potions: 40%
T. 1-4 scrolls: 50%
U. 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%
V. 2 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 85%
W. 1 map: 55%
X. 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%
Y. nil
Z. Any 3 magic: 50%

You add that up and it's around 36% on average.  I don't see how that makes magic items rare.

Quote from: Sommerjon;598771That's a problem with random treasure tables.


They were?
Treasure chart for magic items in MM1
A. Any 3: 30%
B. Sword, armor, or misc. weapon: 10%
C. Any 2: 10%
D. Any 2 plus 1 potion: 15%
E. Any 3 plus I scroll: 25%
F. Any 3 except swords or misc. weapons, plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 30%
G. Any 4 plus 1 scroll: 35%
H. Any 4 plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 15%
I.  Any 1: 15%
S. 2-8 potions: 40%
T. 1-4 scrolls: 50%
U. 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%
V. 2 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 85%
W. 1 map: 55%
X. 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%
Y. nil
Z. Any 3 magic: 50%

You add that up and it's around 36% on average.  I don't see how that makes magic items rare.

You forgot to add in all the 0% for Types J, K, L, M, N, O, P and Q.  It is closer to 25% on average to find a single magic item.  Every four adventures, then, the entire party can be expected to find one magic item.  Hardly overwhelming, and that assumes the party defeats one creature with each Treasure Type in those four adventures.  The vast majority of creatures encountered will have Treasure Types J-Q, and another percentage in addition will have Treasure Type Nil.  At 1st through maybe 4th or 5th level, you will be generally fighting humanoid/goblinoid types, where your odds for getting magical treasure are 0%.

If you want to say that the odds for getting a magic item from creatures that actually have magic items averages 36%, that is somewhat more accurate, but those creatures will generally fall in the 'uncommon' or 'rare' encounter frequencies; you will only see them 5% or 10% of the time.  Roughly, you might average a single magic item 10% of the time.

Hardly an overburdened, Monty Haul level of magic items.