Quote from: Sommerjon;5981471e dmg pg116
"a player character must be at least an 11th level high priest, an archdruid, a 12th level wizard or an 11th level illusionist in order to manufacture magic items...."

Even as a 14yr old kid this made no sense.
Where are the items that make life easier?  Like plows that move through the earth easily?  Or saws that cut stone as easily as wood?  Or containers that keep food fresh as the day they were picked?  Or wheel-barrels that hold more than they should.   Or baskets that weigh next to nothing even when loaded with heavy items? And on and on.  These things are not there.  Because magic in D&D is 90% combat related only.

well, no.
Yes, D&D magic is 80-90% combat related.  But that is not what makes magic item creation hard or easy.

That is up to the determination of the GM as to the type of game and setting they want to create.  Pure and simple.
D&D, like any game, and like mine, detemined what type of rarity and magic system they wanted.   Just because something has utility does not make it easy to do or create.  
If a GM wants to create a world where magic items are readily available and easy to make and common, that is still a GM choice and pretty easy to implement, though it might lose some of the thrill of discovery.

Now, as to your unrelated point, I agree that it is ridiculous in many games or settings that the spells and the items are purely combat related, and when a GM handwaves and says that he just assumes they exist, he is taking the easy way out.  I pretty much aim for a 33/33/34% distribution of spells and items that are mundane/social/combat.

Quote from: Sommerjon;5981471e dmg pg116
"a player character must be at least an 11th level high priest, an archdruid, a 12th level wizard or an 11th level illusionist in order to manufacture magic items...."

Ah, I see what you mean now.

QuoteEven as a 14yr old kid this made no sense.
Where are the items that make life easier?  Like plows that move through the earth easily?  Or saws that cut stone as easily as wood?  Or containers that keep food fresh as the day they were picked?  Or wheel-barrels that hold more than they should.   Or baskets that weigh next to nothing even when loaded with heavy items? And on and on.  These things are not there.  Because magic in D&D is 90% combat related only.

It's a fair point; I would say in 3.x magic is 90% combat related, but certainly 1st and 2nd edition weren't overflowing with the quotidian magic.  I would say rather 90% of the magic in AD&D was adventuring related, but in the final analysis, that obviously doesn't contradict your point.

I would probably point to the same reason that modern working class folks don't have budget priced BMW vehicles to drive and Rollex doesn't have a 'value-priced' line of watches.  Only moreso, as peasants in a pseudo-medieval society would be considered 2nd class citizens at best, and so wouldn't even be remotely considered for ease of labour devices.  Most of these fantasy campaigns are socially on the cusp of the Renaissance, which means there is usually a thriving merchant/middle class, who probably could afford some similar items.  Now you have to draw another artificial line; why can clerics and magic users crank out dozens of cloths of cleanliness or baskets of holding per month but only one or two +2 swords in a year?  What makes that magic so much more difficult to imbue than a strip of linen or crudely formed stick-basket?

It could very well be that the artificial rarity you cite is partially to avoid having a 'magic item factory' of the more mundane items, which would only lead to that same factory cranking out more powerful items as well, once the players got wind of it.

Quote from: Mr. GC;5981941: Hi Welcome

The predictable opening when you have shit yourself and don't have an actual response to make.

Quote2: For all your sperging about Diablo it has more of a story than your "storygames" despite having almost no story whatsoever. This is because stories need conflict to exist, and conflict will result in them gimps getting swept so either you have a story that ends halfway through the prologue or that never even begins. Meanwhile the minimalistic, bad story of Diablo is at least complete.

Protip:  I'm not particularly fond of "storygames".

But clearly we have discovered why you hide your shitty understanding of table top games behind whiny number-twatting; you only play computer RPGs, and somehow think table top games adhere to the same play style.

The 'bad story of Diablo is at least complete'?  You are a gold mine of utterly moronic posts that just keeps on giving.

Quote3: I was talking about D&D. In D&D you are expected to spend your resources on character effectiveness because that is what matters, not your goddamned magical tea.

We have already established that you shouldn't be talking about D&D, because you haven't the faintest notion of what it entails or how it is played, having never done so yourself.  The posts you have on this thread alone show you are unaware of how or why magic shops should exist or not or what 'currency' is and how it is used, let alone the larger economy that would support the existence of a magic item shop.

QuoteBecause see, when your job demands competence you step it up or step on out.

I can state with a high degree of certainty that you are unfamiliar with both a job and any degree of competence in any endeavours.

QuoteNumbers twat? You see numbers and pussy the fuck out, because you know you auto lose the instant you cannot bribe/bully/bullshit the DM for victory.

And hoping the DM likes you as a person because of how you arrange numbers on your character sheet isn't a kind of bribe.  :rolleyes:   "Please say I am one of the cool kids, DM!  I put all my skill points in the ones you think are awesome!"  Perhaps one day you will learn how to play RPGs at a real table, instead of just playing Diablo on God mode and faking it.

QuoteYou have almost 9,000 posts and every single one of them are completely useless.

You haven't read 9,000 pages in your entire life, let alone a substantial number of my posts.  Everything you say is demonstrably wrong, because just in the last couple of months, pretty much everyone here and at TGD have actually demonstrated how you are almost always hilariously and diametrically wrong; those few occasions where someone didn't is because of Wolfgang Paulli's assessment:  you aren't even wrong.

QuoteShow me one time, one post where you have made a statement of value. I'll wait, but not hold my breath.

No, please, do hold your breath, it would do us all a favour.

QuoteNow blow on out of this thread.

Guess what, internet tough guy?  You don't get to make that call.  You just get to sit there streaming tears of impotent rage because everyone here makes you feel small in the pants all the time, unlike the junior high kids that hang on every moronic syllable that dribbles from your shit-stained lips because they are about the only people with less life experience than you.

Go back to Diablo, number-twat, you can't possibly enjoy being made the laughingstock on every forum you visit.

Quote from: StormBringer;598293Protip:  I'm not particularly fond of "storygames".

So you fail at numbers and fail at stories... is there anything you do not fail at? Actually nevermind, I already know the answer.

QuoteBut clearly we have discovered why you hide your shitty understanding of table top games behind whiny number-twatting; you only play computer RPGs, and somehow think table top games adhere to the same play style.

Show us on the doll where the optimizers ball busted you. Oh wait, you don't have any.

QuoteThe 'bad story of Diablo is at least complete'?  You are a gold mine of utterly moronic posts that just keeps on giving.

Is a story in which your gimps get facerolled on page 3 complete? Only in the technical sense.

But then, am I really surprised a RPGSiter fails at reading comprehension?

QuoteAnd hoping the DM likes you as a person because of how you arrange numbers on your character sheet isn't a kind of bribe.  :rolleyes:   "Please say I am one of the cool kids, DM!  I put all my skill points in the ones you think are awesome!"  Perhaps one day you will learn how to play RPGs at a real table, instead of just playing Diablo on God mode and faking it.

Or ya know, you could survive 5 minutes without a DM cock down your throat. Put down the barrel.

QuoteYou haven't read 9,000 pages in your entire life, let alone a substantial number of my posts.  Everything you say is demonstrably wrong, because just in the last couple of months, pretty much everyone here and at TGD have actually demonstrated how you are almost always hilariously and diametrically wrong; those few occasions where someone didn't is because of Wolfgang Paulli's assessment:  you aren't even wrong.

Only in your delusional mind.

What actually happened was I bitch slapped those basket weavers every time they mouthed off... and as for TGD, they got very boring and repetitive so I just suicided my account because I didn't give a fuck.

QuoteGuess what, internet tough guy?  You don't get to make that call.  You just get to sit there streaming tears of impotent rage because everyone here makes you feel small in the pants all the time, unlike the junior high kids that hang on every moronic syllable that dribbles from your shit-stained lips because they are about the only people with less life experience than you.

Go back to Diablo, number-twat, you can't possibly enjoy being made the laughingstock on every forum you visit.

If by that you mean having many lulz at all the fuckwits, and sharing the laughs with various others, yeah I'll keep doing that. I'll keep kicking you basket weaver bitches all over the field like I'm in a World Cup soccer match and the fans will literally kill me if I don't score this fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But when you're done being a soccer ball and are ready to be an actual person, do let me know. I prefer intelligent conversations to beating on idiots.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598297If by that you mean having many lulz at all the fuckwits, and sharing the laughs with various others, yeah I'll keep doing that. I'll keep kicking you basket weaver bitches all over the field like I'm in a World Cup soccer match and the fans will literally kill me if I don't score this fucking GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's mildly amusing when you lose your shit and pretend to wear big boy pants, but you are just boring overall anymore, and that is unacceptable in a junior high troll.  As I mentioned before, you haven't the vaguest concept of 'competent'.  It's pretty clear you can only switch numbers around on a character sheet until the DM pats you on the head and you wet yourself.  You can barely string a coherent sentence together without peppering 'lulz' 'lol at' and other pre-adolescent texting phrases throughout, then trip all over yourself with the internet tough guy routine while everyone points and laughs.

You can't possibly have even one iota of dignity when all you can manage is shitting yourself and screaming "Look at me!" while everyone tries to avert their eyes out of embarrassment for your condition.

Jesus, go read a book or something.

Quote from: StormBringer;598310Herpaderp.

Translated. Trollface.gif

Quote from: StormBringer;598310It's mildly amusing when you lose your shit and pretend to wear big boy pants, but you are just boring overall anymore, and that is unacceptable in a junior high troll.  As I mentioned before, you haven't the vaguest concept of 'competent'.  It's pretty clear you can only switch numbers around on a character sheet until the DM pats you on the head and you wet yourself.  You can barely string a coherent sentence together without peppering 'lulz' 'lol at' and other pre-adolescent texting phrases throughout, then trip all over yourself with the internet tough guy routine while everyone points and laughs.

You can't possibly have even one iota of dignity when all you can manage is shitting yourself and screaming "Look at me!" while everyone tries to avert their eyes out of embarrassment for your condition.

Jesus, go read a book or something.

If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598327If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Good idea, I should have followed this advice earlier.

Quote from: LordVreeg;598327If you'd do me the favor of not reposting his idiocy in your posts, I'd appreciate it.
I find the discourse more intelligent and rational with him on Ignore, but you keep using quoteblocks of his noisome, nonsensical, neoteinic babblings.  Minimize this if possible.

Better, place him on your ignore list.  Life is far to short to spend on a waste of oxygen like him.

Yeah, got it on IL too and you are spoiling it!

Quote from: Imperator;598370Yeah, got it on IL too and you are spoiling it!

Alright, alright!  I get the damn point!



EDIT:  RationalWiki to the rescue!  I discovered the major problem:  Those rejects are fractally wrong about everything.

Quote from: Mr. GC;597914Because the basket weavers are so very good at leaving well enough alone. Oh wait, they restarted this mess with their herpaderp comments, so now I'm refinishing it.

Can you please point to specific posts on this thread where you can show that the "basketweavers" started this debate again on this thread? Because otherwise, it seems to be YOU who are doing the thread derailing.

QuoteFact of the matter is that gold is only as useful as the magic items you can buy with it, so if you cannot buy any it is not useful.

My posts about my Albion game pretty much disprove that.

QuoteIt also isn't a coincidence the game is balanced around the assumption you're using something like 99% of your wealth on loot that makes you more effective (the rest being rounding errors and all that other junk, in that order).

WTF game are you talking about that? This is certainly not the case in my Albion game (run with LotFP), nor with my Arrows of Indra game. Its not the case with AD&D 1e, RC D&D, 2e, or OD&D, as well as most OSR games.

Your very limited understanding of what can be played as "D&D" is showing again.

Oh, and I wasn't kidding about those examples from the thread; its very much in your best interest to back up the argument that you've somehow been "baited" into coming on here and trying to make this into yet another "basketweavers vs. denners" thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;598416Can you please point to specific posts on this thread where you can show that the "basketweavers" started this debate again on this thread? Because otherwise, it seems to be YOU who are doing the thread derailing.

Sure. I said something, people were content to ignore it, which was fine since I didn't care all that much. Then this clown shows back up and starts it up again:

Quote from: TristramEvans;597386Sure, ecause why would a character ever need to eat, pay for a room at an inn, hire assistants, bribe someone for information, pay for transportation, or buy clothes?

It's really annoying when all that roleplaying crap gets in the way of figuring out to-hit bonuses huh?

His post, in addition to starting up this bullshit again was entirely irrelevant because it's like expecting the cost of vending machines to put a significant dent in a working professional's paycheck.

QuoteWTF game are you talking about that? This is certainly not the case in my Albion game (run with LotFP), nor with my Arrows of Indra game. Its not the case with AD&D 1e, RC D&D, 2e, or OD&D, as well as most OSR games.

Your very limited understanding of what can be played as "D&D" is showing again.

Oh, and I wasn't kidding about those examples from the thread; its very much in your best interest to back up the argument that you've somehow been "baited" into coming on here and trying to make this into yet another "basketweavers vs. denners" thread.

RPGPundit

It's true of all editions of D&D, which is the only game that actually matters seeing as it's the only one with any decent player base.

In 3.5 it is very explicit. In earlier editions it doesn't spell it out for you, but at the same time it puts enemies that are completely invulnerable to your weapons if they are not tall enough to hit them, and also sets up accuracy such that you need magic armor, etc just to not get hit all the time. I wasn't especially concerned about older editions either, I mention this only for completeness.

And lol basketweavers vs denners. It's never been about that. Because see, the denners are basketweavers, and if you are labeling me in the same category as them you're doing it wrong.

It has however been basket weavers vs me.

That being said, just because you can point to some systems with no depth and say they aren't magic item based doesn't mean... anything really.

Sort of on this topic is how often PCs commision items to be made for them?  Magical ones, obviously.

I had one of those, "I am doing it right" moments when my PCs started commisioning magical items more. This goes back some 10 years ago, maybe 11.   It was important to me for a few reasons.

First off, I mentined earlier that the frequency distribution was supposed to set up so that guilds and schools might have potions and scrolls and lesser misc. items available, but due to the way that magic and society mix, weapons and combat magic items are a bit more rare and people tend to keep them.  And even medium power stuff is very, very rare.  

Secondly, the magic and item creation systems, at least the basics, are pretty well established and known by the players.  Having the right raw materials helps, and pouring magic into an item often makes it better, but any really good stuff is the spell charges put into an item.
Crystal Decanter of Air...an example.

Thirdly, magic items are actually difficult to sell directly for money, even to those guilds and organizations with the wherewithal to purchase them.  (A notable exception is the Collegium Arcana, who most of the PCs don't get along with).  So when the group finds an item they want to sell, 75% of the time or more they end up bartering, at least to some level.

So right now, my Igbarians are all in an adventure, but 75% of them have artificed items being made for them in Igbar right now.

So, in comparison to the 'the Magic Shop' in the OP, how often do your PCs  actually commision items to be made?  How does it fit, and if you don't use it a lot, is there a reason you don't or do you think you should use it more?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261well, no.
Yes, D&D magic is 80-90% combat related.  But that is not what makes magic item creation hard or easy.

That is up to the determination of the GM as to the type of game and setting they want to create.  Pure and simple.

Perhaps.   I wonder how many people were influenced by the exampl of old school games?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261D&D, like any game, and like mine, determined what type of rarity and magic system they wanted.   Just because something has utility does not make it easy to do or create.  If a GM wants to create a world where magic items are readily available and easy to make and common, that is still a GM choice and pretty easy to implement, though it might lose some of the thrill of discovery.

Why would it lose some of the thrill?

Quote from: LordVreeg;598261Now, as to your unrelated point, I agree that it is ridiculous in many games or settings that the spells and the items are purely combat related, and when a GM handwaves and says that he just assumes they exist, he is taking the easy way out.  I pretty much aim for a 33/33/34% distribution of spells and items that are mundane/social/combat.

No this a related point.

Quote from: StormBringer;598289Ah, I see what you mean now.


It's a fair point; I would say in 3.x magic is 90% combat related, but certainly 1st and 2nd edition weren't overflowing with the quotidian magic.  I would say rather 90% of the magic in AD&D was adventuring related, but in the final analysis, that obviously doesn't contradict your point.

I would probably point to the same reason that modern working class folks don't have budget priced BMW vehicles to drive and Rollex doesn't have a 'value-priced' line of watches.  Only moreso, as peasants in a pseudo-medieval society would be considered 2nd class citizens at best, and so wouldn't even be remotely considered for ease of labour devices.  Most of these fantasy campaigns are socially on the cusp of the Renaissance, which means there is usually a thriving merchant/middle class, who probably could afford some similar items.  Now you have to draw another artificial line; why can clerics and magic users crank out dozens of cloths of cleanliness or baskets of holding per month but only one or two +2 swords in a year?  What makes that magic so much more difficult to imbue than a strip of linen or crudely formed stick-basket?

It could very well be that the artificial rarity you cite is partially to avoid having a 'magic item factory' of the more mundane items, which would only lead to that same factory cranking out more powerful items as well, once the players got wind of it.

Common magic items are common because of the 'power' needed to create them isn't very high.  The rarity of items is still there, because PCs want specific items that take more 'power' to create.

Quote from: Mr. GC;598462Sure. I said something, people were content to ignore it, which was fine since I didn't care all that much. Then this clown shows back up and starts it up again:

Sorry, no, you started it up again with your post here:

QuoteI'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

This is blatant baiting for a "denners vs. basketweavers" fight, and thread disruption.  That you then turn around and claim that people responding to your absurd statements are somehow attacks on your person is absolute bullshit.

QuoteIt's true of all editions of D&D, which is the only game that actually matters seeing as it's the only one with any decent player base.

You clearly have no idea what any editions of D&D before 3rd are like. You don't get to have a magic shop in any pre-3e game as default.

QuoteIn 3.5 it is very explicit. In earlier editions it doesn't spell it out for you, but at the same time it puts enemies that are completely invulnerable to your weapons if they are not tall enough to hit them, and also sets up accuracy such that you need magic armor, etc just to not get hit all the time.

That's true. But you're not expected to go buy these with gold; you're expected to GO ADVENTURING FOR THEM.

QuoteI wasn't especially concerned about older editions either, I mention this only for completeness.

If you were, you might be less of a complete twat.

QuoteAnd lol basketweavers vs denners. It's never been about that. Because see, the denners are basketweavers, and if you are labeling me in the same category as them you're doing it wrong.

It has however been basket weavers vs me.

Right. Well, that perspective, that apparently its you alone and everyone else in the world is wrong, makes this all much clearer.
You are disrupting this forum. I made sure to hold back and give you ample time to either disprove the people who wanted you banned (including some of my own mods) or to hang yourself with.
Here, you've clearly chosen to hang yourself. You have no interest in doing anything on this forum other than going into threads to intentionally derail them toward a fight with the people you disagree with, which is apparently every other gamer on earth.
So this is nothing against you specifically, you don't matter to me enough. Its just a basic action of site protection; my getting rid of you is like killing a rat that got into your house. Its nothing personal, just vermin control.

Goodbye.

RPGPundit