Quote from: deadDMwalking;596419You're a fucking dumbass.  The two statements are not mutually exclusive.  You can have magic item shops, and for most campaigns, that is absolutely logical.  Just because you have magic item shops doesn't mean that they need to have artifact level items - in part because someone has to be making those powerful items.  The most powerful wizards in the world usually won't have much incentive to make the most powerful items in the world without a good reason.  Since they can pretty much get as much gold as they want, say, by visiting the elemental plane of gold, money has no real meaning.  

So, powerful magic items shouldn't be readily available.

QuoteSo campaigns are not better without magic item shops.  If you think so, ask yourself this - why would players want to be able to buy magic items?

Because they are whiny entitled crybabies that want a ribbon just for showing up...?

QuoteIf you spend enough time thinking about it, you'll understand why they can make the game better.  But of course they need to be done with some consideration.  Good DMs should be able to handle it.  Crappy DMs who are too afraid of 'powerful characters' probably can't.

Or, you know, sometimes earning rewards makes them more treasured?

QuoteYes.  And being able to turn magic items directly into gold, say, instead of using to equip hirelings, can help you get to that part of the game faster.  Even before name level.  What's your point?  Dumb ass.

Except you can't really get to that point 'faster'.  That part of the game is what name level is for.  What were you saying about being a dumbass?  You might want to make sure you don't shit your pants before pointing out what you (always) erroneously consider a mistake.

How many times can you blurt out entirely stupid shit like 'get to the explicitly name level game before name level' without some measure of embarrassment?  Or is your ego so incredibly frail that you have a complete meltdown in the face of any contradiction, no matter how minor?

Quote from: MagesGuild;595353Dear Saeros, someone has been terribly generous with you. I have never run a game (that I started) where a low-level character had access to that measure of wealth.

Yeah. His name was Gary Gygax. He wrote the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide. You may have heard of him.

QuotePCs that could amass such wealth would be doing so by stealing it from very rich...

Or, ya know, owning a fucking bag of holding.

I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

Like I said before: If you want to have a logical setting that doesn't include magic item shops, it's not just a matter of "toning down" the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. It means radically slashing-and-burning the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. We're talking about 1/100th as many items. (Or, alternatively, accepting the fact that PCs will be richer than kings by roughly 3rd level and then following through on the consequences of that.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452Yeah. His name was Gary Gygax. He wrote the 1st Edition Dungeon Master's Guide. You may have heard of him.



Or, ya know, owning a fucking bag of holding.

I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

Like I said before: If you want to have a logical setting that doesn't include magic item shops, it's not just a matter of "toning down" the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. It means radically slashing-and-burning the amount of magic available to a typical D&D PC. We're talking about 1/100th as many items. (Or, alternatively, accepting the fact that PCs will be richer than kings by roughly 3rd level and then following through on the consequences of that.)

Yup like i said in AD&D as written a 10th level figther has probably seen /found/sold/given away about 50 - 90 magical swords

One of the reasons why I like the idea that somehow a magic blade can grow with the PC. Although part of me hates that 9the games as a physics engine part of me)
I am trying to see if you can somehow make the sword make someone 15% better as opposed to just giveing them +15%

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

To quibble a bit, you're assuming that 100% of the treasure is found and retained: none consumed, none lost to destructive monster abilities, none lost to characters slain unrecoverably or leaving the party (covet the artifacts in the Chapel, anyone?), none traded away to NPCs in the Keep who might have favors to offer, none taken by fleeing tribes only half-wiped-out by initial incursions...

Most dungeon-building advice I've read urges DMs to assume the players will only recover a fraction of the treasure placed, and that's certainly the case with the players I've had.

It's a different argument, but I just want to throw in that in my games the 70kgp of treasure can only be sold for a fraction of that, and much of it can't be afforded by anybody anywhere near the Keep, so they aren't "richer than Kings" by a long shot.

I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Your mother is worthless flavor text.

Quote from: Gib;596510Your mother is worthless flavor text.

That isn't what your mother said last night.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596530That isn't what your mother said last night.

 I hope you pulled her back hair. She likes that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;596452I just rolled up a random treasure using the DMG's tables: 47,050 gp in magical treasure.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands contains more than 70,000 gp in magical treasure alone. (This doesn't count treasure in coin, gems, or anything else.) And that's just one adventure. Run two adventures like that and a party of 6 will have each have 25,000 gp in magical equipment alone.

Contrary to your claim that no book suggests this much wealth for characters of this level, it is actually completely trivial for characters to own equipment worth this much. All it takes is following the treasure guidelines found in the core rulebooks or running a couple adventures penned by the creators of the game.

In our long-running campaign playing mostly TSR modules, our PCs acquired vast quantities of magic items. The end of adventure magic item draft, even divided among 8 PCs, would typically see each PC acquire 6-10 items. When you consider that we played at a rate of about 3 adventures/ level, by 8th level we had far more magic items than could be transported, even with wagons. Storing and guarding treasure, and efforts by the DM to trim back the Christmas Tree effect, came to occupy a lot of play time.

Of course, we were young, and didn't think to simply cut back on the amount of treasure awarded in published adventures until the problem had gotten out of hand. It took playing with a different DM who ran only homebrew campaigns, until I saw the merits of a low-magic-treasure game.

Still, I'd rather magic only be available from monsters and dungeons than sold at a shop on high street. I know there's a logical hole there - what happens to all the items that PCs no longer need? - but I can live with that.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

Well, in some editions of D&D, gold = XP. And then there's all of the other things you can do with gold besides buy magic items - pay taxes (involuntarily), bribe officials, buy off the thieves' guild, pay sages, hire henchmen and mercenaries, buy a ship, build a tower or castle. And in the absence of magic shops, you can convert gold to magic items by crafting magic items yourself. Which I find more palatable than WizardMart.

Quote from: Haffrung;596548Well, in some editions of D&D, gold = XP. And then there's all of the other things you can do with gold besides buy magic items - pay taxes (involuntarily), bribe officials, buy off the thieves' guild, pay sages, hire henchmen and mercenaries, buy a ship, build a tower or castle. And in the absence of magic shops, you can convert gold to magic items by crafting magic items yourself. Which I find more palatable than WizardMart.

Generally, when someone says that "gold becomes useless flavor text to be ignored because you can no longer purchase magic items with it" that means that that is the only useful thing you can do with gold.

And so listing useless things you can do with gold is quite irrelevant.

The only one that is notable is the last one. Lack of magic item shops just means Wizard and Cleric shrug, craft their standard stat and save boosters etc themselves and the Fighter goes and cries in the corner. But hey, at least he has beer right? :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mr. GC;596508I'd like to interrupt deadDM smacking around Stormbringer long enough to say that if you cannot convert gold into magic items, it is basically worthless flavor text to be entirely ignored.

So, you have never played a tabletop game, and only know RPGs via Diablo.

Quote from: Haffrung;596546In our long-running campaign playing mostly TSR modules, our PCs acquired vast quantities of magic items. The end of adventure magic item draft, even divided among 8 PCs, would typically see each PC acquire 6-10 items. When you consider that we played at a rate of about 3 adventures/ level, by 8th level we had far more magic items than could be transported, even with wagons. Storing and guarding treasure, and efforts by the DM to trim back the Christmas Tree effect, came to occupy a lot of play time.

TSR era modules were notorious for being way, way, way overstuffed with treasure and goodies.  Part of it was as Naburimannu mentioned earlier; no one was intended to make it out with everything.  Still, the loot was usually piled so high, even a moderate fraction was far and away more than a party probably should have.  It was kind of ironic reading the admonitions against 'Monty Haul' play in light of their Monty Haul squared modules.

QuoteOf course, we were young, and didn't think to simply cut back on the amount of treasure awarded in published adventures until the problem had gotten out of hand. It took playing with a different DM who ran only homebrew campaigns, until I saw the merits of a low-magic-treasure game.

I think everyone has to go through that phase first.  Crawl before walking and all that.

QuoteStill, I'd rather magic only be available from monsters and dungeons than sold at a shop on high street. I know there's a logical hole there - what happens to all the items that PCs no longer need? - but I can live with that.

I don't find that so illogical.  Let's say you grab a 40ft yacht at a estate sale for cheap or whatever, and now you want to offload it.  Generally speaking, the yacht store isn't going to just name a price and clear out some storage space.  The lament of game show contestants since the beginning of television.  Massive tax liens on luxury items, no place to really offload them easily or quickly...  these things end up being more of an albatross around the neck than an item to be enjoyed.  Especially if more or less strict encumbrance is followed.  Sure, Jibba's fighter might own four dozen swords, but where does he store them?  Obtaining them is very different than keeping them.

Quote from: StormBringer;596589So, you have never played a tabletop game, and only know RPGs via Diablo.

Lmfao.

You haven't been able to feasibly convert gold into magic items in Diablo since the original game. In the second gold is useless flavor text to be ignored, and in the third hyper inflation and various other factors make it so that you're more indirectly trading items for items than directly purchasing anything even though gold is technically the currency.

So Stormbringer fails again. The world is unsurprised.

Quote from: Mr. GC;596580Lack of magic item shops just means Wizard and Cleric shrug, craft their standard stat and save boosters etc themselves and the Fighter goes and cries in the corner.

I ran this through babelfish and I still don't understand it.