Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649This is a type of behavior that I've seen in  lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party,  but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings  that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not  a game.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595749Is that what you think I said?  Stop being a dumbass.  

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595749Rarely, it might make sense for an artifact to have some dolorous side effects, but usually it's used as gamist block to keep PCs from having fun.  Better not to include such artifacts.  It's 'fun' for the DM, not the players.  There are plenty of reasons why the PCs wouldn't want to abuse an artifact besides 'curse'.  If you can't think of any, than you're the ones that lack creativity.

You might want to wait a post or two before directly contradicting yourself in the future.

QuoteIt's specifically a gamist curb on power when there are other ways to  address it.

Except that it isn't, because dabbling with powerful magic has always had unwanted side effects from antiquity to the modern day.

QuoteIn a general sense, the 'corruption' you associate with certain powerful  items is allegorical for 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts  absolutely'.

And holding off before posting the explanation for your own lack of insight would be advisable as well.

What do you suggest, ordering the player to act as though they are corrupted?  Tell them to use the item more?  Take over their PC and have them sit this one out?  Talk about being on the railroad of a failed novelist.  Much like level drain, the best way of simulating this is mechanically, and it gives an actual consequence to their decision to use an item anyway, unlike your notion of 'no discernible consequences'.  Yes, yes, people might be killed when the characters use the item.  Hey, guess what?  They were probably intending to kill some people using it anyway.

QuoteIf you have a 'superweapon' that kills people outside of your intended  area, dealing with the consequences of that 'in-game' could be fun.   Rolling a sanity check, no thank you.  That's boring.

In other words, dealing with a result that has no real enforceable bearing on play is fun, while the chance of not getting a ribbon just for showing up is boring.

deadDM: The poster you're arguing with is named after a cursed item out of an iconic bit of fantasy fiction.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Quote from: beejazz;595787deadDM: The poster you're arguing with is named after a cursed item out of an iconic bit of fantasy fiction.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

:hatsoff:
And the concept was hardly invented whole cloth in the 60s by Moorcock.  Although historically, magic weapons and armour always seemed to do what they were supposed to.

Quote from: StormBringer;595789:hatsoff:
And the concept was hardly invented whole cloth in the 60s by Moorcock.  Although historically, magic weapons and armour always seemed to do what they were supposed to.

I'm pretty sure my favorite implementation of the cursed item is in the bag of devouring category. It does something. It sucks if you try to use it not knowing what it does, but can become useful again once you know. Meshes well with finding random crap in the dungeon and poking stuff with sticks.

But that doesn't mesh as well with a magic shop, who would be interested in finding out what something actually does before selling it. Cursed items out of a shop should be more in the "costs and/or collateral damage" category.

Randomized failure and backfiring are mildly annoying to me (they seem a little more appropriate for a scifi than a fantasy MacGuffin) while a fixed cost, done well, feels more right.

Fixed failure is fine too. Thor's goats wouldn't get up when that peasant kid ate the marrow from their bones. I'm sure there are better examples not coming to me.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595735Tieing this thread back to Traveller's thread on shoul low level magic items actually be 'magical at all'? I think there is possibly an ideal system where low level items like +1 or maybe +2 weapons, potions etc could be created using materials, so a certain sort of rare metal creates these arms and weapons valerian steel, adamantine, mithril. Or a certain mix of herbs and rare creature parts, creates potions. Bu thte more powerful items are created my mages with great skill and are unique.

So you have a market for lesser items which is really about quality production with skilled artisans searching for rare materials.

Now we enter the interesting field of mastercrafted items, such as Damascus or folded steel. I see no qualm giving such a weapon an edge in play, be it an bonus to strike, additional damage, the ability to easily cleave, a greater hardness so that it damages defending/parrying weapons, and the like.

This is certainly a way to add another facet to objects: Mastercrafted items also don't cease to have their properties when dispelled or in a null-magical field. (X|S)

Quote from: beejazz;595792I'm pretty sure my favorite implementation of the cursed item is in the bag of devouring category. It does something. It sucks if you try to use it not knowing what it does, but can become useful again once you know. Meshes well with finding random crap in the dungeon and poking stuff with sticks.

Even the stuff that was supposed to be beneficial in the 1st Edition DMG was only undangerous about half the time.  

QuoteBut that doesn't mesh as well with a magic shop, who would be interested in finding out what something actually does before selling it. Cursed items out of a shop should be more in the "costs and/or collateral damage" category.

Yeah, a Warehouse 13 sort of storage facility would be more appropriate for most of those kinds of 'magic gone awry'.

QuoteRandomized failure and backfiring are mildly annoying to me (they seem a little more appropriate for a scifi than a fantasy MacGuffin) while a fixed cost, done well, feels more right.

Fixed failure is fine too. Thor's goats wouldn't get up when that peasant kid ate the marrow from their bones. I'm sure there are better examples not coming to me.

Agreed.  If the 'randomized' doesn't crop up at a crucial moment, and the 'backfire' is embarrassing or causes a small delay, it can provide a bit of comic relief.  And predictable failure has uses as well.  Something dangerously unpredictable is not terribly fun.

Quote from: StormBringer;595931Yeah, a Warehouse 13 sort of storage facility would be more appropriate for most of those kinds of 'magic gone awry'.

Depends on whether the shopkeeper is interested in profit or in something else. A sufficiently bored immortal might take an afternoon's entertainment from selling cursed items to hapless adventurers. Perhaps the shop is a means to collect souls for a Daemon Prince, and the curses inevitably lead to damnation of one form or another. When it comes to magic the motivations of merchants shouldn't be taken for granted I feel.

Quote from: The Traveller;595954Depends on whether the shopkeeper is interested in profit or in something else. A sufficiently bored immortal might take an afternoon's entertainment from selling cursed items to hapless adventurers. Perhaps the shop is a means to collect souls for a Daemon Prince, and the curses inevitably lead to damnation of one form or another. When it comes to magic the motivations of merchants shouldn't be taken for granted I feel.

Or it could be a mage's guild. They'd have reasons to keep both useful and dangerous items (the latter for research or just to keep out of the hands of the public). Now, they might not sell the really dangerous stuff, but the second the PCs get the idea to rob the place they may be in for a few surprises both good and bad.

Quote from: beejazz;594179I think the problem with the magic shop is more the shop than the magic. The resemblance to any kind of modern store feels weird in a time period when people are more likely to buy and sell in open air markets, with caravans, or by interacting directly with people who make the items. And given the high cost, magic items might be more likely to be exchanged for the same reasons and under the same circumstances as land and such.

There were "shops" in the middle ages, usually the front end of the house where a craftsman both lived and worked; that said, the format would usually only make sense if the person with the "shop" was actually making the magic items.  I do think it would be more logical that magic items, when they were available for sale, would end up being sold through contacts and private arrangements via fixers, rather than at a storefront.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;596341I do think it would be more logical that magic items, when they were available for sale, would end up being sold through contacts and private arrangements via fixers, rather than at a storefront.

This. I don't like to have *dingaling* "What can I do for you today, sir" magic shops in my campaigns. However, I'm okay with "a wand yer wanting, is it? Well I know where ye might get one. But it will cost dearly. And perhaps not in gold."

Quote from: MagesGuild;595110The same goes for antique pipes. I picked up a CFP meershaum with 14K gold bands around the shank and the bowl in a leather, form-made, velvet-lined case about eight years back for $50. The gold itself was even then, worth that or more in melt. Just this week I snagged another WDC briar with 14K trim for about $100. If you bought any pipe with gold trim made today, you'd pay over $2,500 for it.

I buy Dunhill pieces from the 1930s though the 1950s for between $50 and $200 each. I paid $400 for a 1950s Dunhill ODB: That is a $4,000 pipe in the Dunhill store if you buy it new. I found a Dunhill-made Hardcastle Straight-grain / quasi flame-grain for around $40; try walking into the Dunhill store and buying a flame-grain or straight-grain for under $2,000.

My 1930s Dunhill Churchwarden set me back around $100. I think that the lowest-priced Dunhill today cots over $400, and their seconds lines (Parker/Hardcastle) start around $75 or so. New items simply cost more than used ones,a nd even unused pre-owned items. I bought a trio of three 1850s (yes, Eighteen-Fifties) WDCs, with amber stems, plus an assortment of extra horn and amber stems, for under $100.

If you have a single amber stem cut today, assuming you can find anyone to cut it, and drill it for you, and a bone tenon to match, it will cost more than $100. That's a custom-made item, and you need to pay for the time and craftsmanship, plus the markup on new materials, and their overhead.

Interesting, a fellow pipe smoker!

I'll note a couple of things: first, Dunhills from the 1930s did not have the same quality control that later Dunhills did (the peak period for Dunhills was from about 1960-80; before or after that, the quality of the pipes is considerably inferior).  I had a personal chat about 10 years ago with the guy who was in charge of Dunhill's pipes and he pointed out to me that many of the antique dunhills he's seen are pipes that he would not have approved to get the "white spot" today.  Of course, that doesn't stop them from sometimes selling for stupidly high amounts, if they're in good condition.

Second, Dunhills are overpriced in general; particularly now that they aren't even made by Dunhill anymore. I say this as a Dunhill fan; I have a $1000 Amber Root Bulldog, and my first high-end pipe was  Dunhill Classic Series Rhodesian, which is still one of my favorites; but the plain fact is that with Dunhill, you're paying a considerable surcharge for the fucking white spot.  For many years, Ashton pipes in particular were at least as high quality as Dunhills and sold for much cheaper; not to mention the plethora of often-incredible Italian pipes.
Today, the NEW Ben Wade pipes being produced (note: I'm talking about the ones in production today, "ben wade" as a brand has had tremendous ups and downs in quality over the years) are literally made in the same factory as Dunhills and are of exactly the same quality; the only difference aside from the white spot is that Ben Wades tend to be slightly less pretty in their finish, but they smoke just as great as any dunhill, and the difference in price is astounding; I've been buying up Ben Wade Ruby pipes for $80 that smoke just as well as my $300-1000 dunhills!

RPGPundit

I don't have a problem, if your setting is one where magic is extremely rare, to have players choose to sell magic items for a very good haul of money.  Its a choice to be made.

The problem arises if magic items are extremely common in your setting AND somehow fetch a high price.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;596373The problem arises if magic items are extremely common in your setting AND somehow fetch a high price.

RPGPundit

This is where I think it gets interesting.  Most DMs are a little afraid of what players are going to do with 'stupid amounts of money'.  I think more DMs should try it a time or two.  As long as players can't buy 'awesome' magical items for 'mere gold', you can pretty much see where players will take it.  Once the high-end magic is off the table, gold becomes interesting again.  Spending thousands of gold on defenses, or building a 'tax-free town' and really interacting with the setting become possibilities.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;596387This is where I think it gets interesting.  Most DMs are a little afraid of what players are going to do with 'stupid amounts of money'.  I think more DMs should try it a time or two.  As long as players can't buy 'awesome' magical items for 'mere gold', you can pretty much see where players will take it.  Once the high-end magic is off the table, gold becomes interesting again.  Spending thousands of gold on defenses, or building a 'tax-free town' and really interacting with the setting become possibilities.

So, the campaign is better without magic item shops, or at least powerful magic item shops.

And spending thousands on defenses is already part of the game; viz. 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide

Quote from: StormBringer;596417So, the campaign is better without magic item shops, or at least powerful magic item shops.

You're a fucking dumbass.  The two statements are not mutually exclusive.  You can have magic item shops, and for most campaigns, that is absolutely logical.  Just because you have magic item shops doesn't mean that they need to have artifact level items - in part because someone has to be making those powerful items.  The most powerful wizards in the world usually won't have much incentive to make the most powerful items in the world without a good reason.  Since they can pretty much get as much gold as they want, say, by visiting the elemental plane of gold, money has no real meaning.  

Unfortunately, this is where Frank Trollman thinks things should be different.  You can use money to buy items of a certain value.  After that, you need to use things that have 'real value'.  Things like souls or other 'planar currency'.  These are things like the raw essence of chaos, and that you can really use to make purchases of ultra-powerful magical items.  

So campaigns are not better without magic item shops.  If you think so, ask yourself this - why would players want to be able to buy magic items?  If you spend enough time thinking about it, you'll understand why they can make the game better.  But of course they need to be done with some consideration.  Good DMs should be able to handle it.  Crappy DMs who are too afraid of 'powerful characters' probably can't.  

Quote from: StormBringer;596417And spending thousands on defenses is already part of the game; viz. 1st Edition AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide

Yes.  And being able to turn magic items directly into gold, say, instead of using to equip hirelings, can help you get to that part of the game faster.  Even before name level.  What's your point?  Dumb ass.