Quote from: StormBringer;595310I would definitely agree with the magic items as high art or grey market analogue.  Correlations with the cyberpunk 'fixer' abound.

yes, my main game is pretty guild intensive, so anyone selling or moving said stuff is involved with some organization or three.  And still, only the small stuff is available in any traditional mercantile sense, though scrolls are a bit of an exception in Celtricia.

Quote from: amacris;595389An unstated point regarding the market for magic items is how difficult they are to appraise. In the real world, merchandise that can be easily appraised in value tends to be easy to buy and sell. Merchandise that cannot be easily appraised has considerably lower re-sale value when not brand new and coming from a reputable seller.

In ACKS, there is no "Identify" spell and, indeed, no reliable way to identify an item's properties at all. The best you can hope for is time-consuming and expensive magical research on the item, which requires a high-level mage and considerable expense. This makes selling items very challenging. "It's a ring of wishes!" "Sure it is, buddy." How do you prove it?

Thus we wrote "ACKS assumes that the market for magic items is illiquid and inefficient. Most magic items found by adventurers were created long ago, and are of dubious origin and uncertain ownership history, which drives their price down."

Using the Magic Item Transactions by Market Class table for a huge city, in a typical month you'd find 7 buyers for a potion or scroll, 2 buyers for a minor item, and have a 10% chance of finding someone willing to buy a 10,000gp+ item.

Pricing for Magic Item transactions:
Commission Specific Item: 3 x base cost + provide any necessary material components
Buy Existing Item: 2 x base cost to create item
Sell Item You've Made: 2 x base cost (known creator, known powers)
Sell Item You've Looted and [Claim to Have] Identified: 1 x base cost (dubious origin, unknown powers)

How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

In the fiction it is normal for magic items in the hands of powerful or renown NPCs or characters to be well known so from The Song of Fire and Ice the Valerian steel blades are heirlooms handed down through familes, the Green Destiny in Crouching Tiger is a renown weapon of power, In the Heroes Whirrun of Bligh weilds the Father of Swords,  in Dying Earth a lot of the major Antagonists we meet have a powerful item but they are willing to show them off so they build up a reputation.
What do you do with items that have a reputation (and I personally think all items should have a rep even if the PCs don't know about it or the general population has forgotten)?

Quote from: jibbajibba;595398How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

In the fiction it is normal for magic items in the hands of powerful or renown NPCs or characters to be well known so from The Song of Fire and Ice the Valerian steel blades are heirlooms handed down through familes, the Green Destiny in Crouching Tiger is a renown weapon of power, In the Heroes Whirrun of Bligh weilds the Father of Swords,  in Dying Earth a lot of the major Antagonists we meet have a powerful item but they are willing to show them off so they build up a reputation.
What do you do with items that have a reputation (and I personally think all items should have a rep even if the PCs don't know about it or the general population has forgotten)?

Great point. When I run, items of +2 or higher bonus, major miscellaneous items, and powerful charged wands and staffs will have backstories. Lesser items, +1 items, potions, and scrolls tend not to get much (if any) backstory.

In ACKS, an item with a reputation/backstory has a chance to be identified by a bard, sage, or other character with Loremastery class power. Loremastery reveals the item's name, origin, and reputed powers, but not charges, magical bonuses, or game mechanics. E.g. "this the spear Feeder of Crows, wielded by Marcus Odysius from 325 BE to 335. The spear is said to pierce steel like cloth and have claimed the lives of a score of men".

Quote from: jibbajibba;595398How do you deal with items that have a reputation.

Fun mercantile fact: it is almost always cheaper to assassinate the shmucks in possession of such an artifact, or perhaps simply have it stolen from then, than to pay a halfway fair price. If you're in any position of local political power, having them thrown into the dungeons on trumped-up charges and confiscating their possessions is even cheaper and actually less risky, too. If you are any sort of of wizard, sorcerer, warlock, mage or cultist, a creature summoned from the Realms Beyond makes an ideal non-negotiated ownership transfer facilitator.

Quote from: Premier;595432Fun mercantile fact: it is almost always cheaper to assasinate the shmucks in possession of such an artifact, or perhaps simply have it stolen from then, than to pay a halfway fair price. If you're in any position of local political power, having them thrown into the dungeons on trumped-up charges and confiscating their possessions is even cheaper and actually less risky, too. If you are any sort of of wizard, sorcerer, warlock, mage or cultist, a creature summoned from the Realms Beyond makes an ideal non-negotiated ownership transfer facilitator.

Technically many of the most powerful magical items should be royal or noble heirlooms. If they aren't, the person that holds them often ends up becoming noble or royal. Governments don't tend to like random mercenaries wandering around with weapons powerful enough to give an edge to anyone who wants to overthrow them. Many a Roman general came to a bad end for being too successful.

Quote from: The Traveller;595439Technically many of the most powerful magical items should be royal or noble heirlooms. If they aren't, the person that holds them often ends up becoming noble or royal. Governments don't tend to like random mercenaries wandering around with weapons powerful enough to give an edge to anyone who wants to overthrow them. Many a Roman general came to a bad end for being too successful.

Quite true. Even in my space-empire setting, the relics, powerful items, and 'artefacts' are owned, controlled or in the possession of the Imperial family, or in the Great Archive, or in private museums of members of the Regal and Ancient Houses.

Few of these are ever used, but some were lost during the old wars, which could be uncovered. That doesn't mean that the finder will know what they do, if anything. If they can ind references to them somewhere, or images of them from the past, they can identify the item by name, and possibly gain clues to what it does.

If a PC is granted access to any such of these, other than by stealing it, then it is a very carefully controlled loan. Frankly, the player greed will usually punish them, as most of these have some sort of side-effect (often corruption) when using them, or when touching them, or having them in your possession. Some of the dangers are downright awful or terrifying.

A person who tries to use 'The Law of Saeros' (an object that banishes an entity by name into a dimensional prison, within a space between the realms of the living and the realm of the transition of death), without the authority or right may find themselves trapped within it themselves.

Anyone who wears Saerena's Crown that isn't either Saerena, or her legal heir, will find that it slowly, but physically, infiltrates your brain, filtering what you hear and see, and manipulating you; and draining your sanity at the same time. It will also reform reality and physical laws, but it does so with spoken word (even accidental), plus conscious and subconscious thought, so if you don't know how to control these aspects, you're in for a world of fun.

Have you ever used the words, in sarcasm 'I wish I was dead!'? Well, now you are!

Lesser items of antiquity are owned by families on noble houses as heirlooms. These might be given to characters by earning favour, especially loyal agents of that house.

I always allow characters can work to make their own items. It is important to note that Zoria is a skill-based game that uses classes, but places no restrictions on who can cast spells. Anyone can learn spells, or mystical theory, and other mystic skills. Non-mages have no MEA, but they can tap into external MEA sources, use mystical elements, or use their physical body or spirit as energy for spellcasting.

Additionally, items that grant a perpetual spell-effect are less-important in the system, as it is possible for some mages to make spells perpetual without an item. At 9th level, a Generalist Wizaed gains the feature 'Permanent Effect', which allows them to spend ten-times the normal MEA cost of a spell to make it permanent. The spell must have a duration longer than zero for this to work though; most damaging spells have a duration of 0 (e.g. Instantaneous).

'Buff' spells do not, so if you grant yourself 2d4 Reasoning, and make it permanent, it stays until dispelled or dismissed. (This is an example of why you would play a mage in a game that allows anyone can learn spells; only this class/profession gains that ability, and each profession has unique abilities).

Making magical items such as the classical Sword of Fire is another matter. Just making a +1-enhanced sword might work, but giving it special abilities would not, unless you create a spell that gives an item that ability. There are always methods to make items.

Of course, the same wizard could also make a spell that gives a blade the 'Vorpal' quality for a segment, and place it on a weapon, selling it; they could also ensure that if the weapon was ever used against them, it instantly killed the wielder instead.

Keep in mind that to do this, the wizard would need 50x10 (500) MEA. If he is gaining 5d6 MEA per level with a Reasoning score of 20, then he would only have around 158 MEA (on average) by level nine, and that is assuming he is extremely intelligent. As such, he would need mystical materials, or an MEA battery, which requires extremely rare materials, or some other means of amassing 500MEAt to cast the spell.

Someone might make such at item as a testament to their life by Soulstriking when they know they are about to, or soon to, die. That would add their Constitution score to their MEA pool, and then multiply it by their Soul statistic (not modifier). Assuming the same wizard with an MEA pool of 158, a Constitution of 12, and a Soul of 9, he would have 1,530 MEA to spend for one, final, devastating spell; no resurrection possible, and no afterlife. (Soulstrikes burn up your entire soul to empower magic.)

Anyhow, there really isn't a demand for this sort of item outside the black market. The Empire would frown on someone trying to openly sell weapons more powerful than those assigned to the militia.

If something like this happened, the emotions of the mage at the moment of his death will leave an imprint on the item that taints it somehow. Taint is not always bad: It depends on your perspective, as it can represent corruption, depravity, righteousness and purity. The item may also have a psychic imprint of sadness, joy, or drive you insane. It takes a very emotional or extreme mental reaction to perform a soulstrike.

This would work as a different dynamic for other systems using my setting, but the point remains that I don't usually use normal store-like settings for items, aside from trinkets, minor one-shots, elixirs, and luxury (hedonistic) objects; and objects that provide transcendental space, although this is also commonly available in late-era periods via technology as well.

There are businesses that will craft objects, often techno-mystical or techno-psychic for you, but they don't keep most on hand, except for very common things, such as psychic-link locks that only allow one person to fire an energy gun, or one person to use a specific computer. They are a circuit that is attuned to one mental imprint, and thereafter, a device to which they are attached will only work for the person that imprinted them.

You can also buy a fixed-genome coder and fixed-genome lock to do the same with genetics, and an aura-link lock (a techno-mystic item) that reads your unique spiritual aura.

The truly paranoid will use all three, in addition to whatever security measures they want to employ to protect their devices. (X|S)

Quote from: MagesGuild;595612If a PC is granted access to any such of these, other than by stealing it, then it is a very carefully controlled loan. Frankly, the player greed will usually punish them, as most of these have some sort of side-effect (often corruption) when using them, or when touching them, or having them in your possession. Some of the dangers are downright awful or terrifying.

BORING!!!  

This is a type of behavior that I've seen in lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party, but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not a game.

If the item has serious drawbacks, most PCs would prefer not to use it.  If the PC must use the item to succeed, we're clearly on a railroad, even if it is well-intentioned.  It's different if the PCs decide that they'd prefer to use a dangerous item as a reliable way to accomplish their goal, but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

My opinion, anyways.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

Can't say I found the Lord of the Rings terribly boring. Its a useful enough tool as long as its not overused, preferably kept for the big stuff and with lots of routes to reach the one goal to rule them all.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;595649BORING!!!  

This is a type of behavior that I've seen in lots of DMs.  They want to make powerful items available to the party, but they're afraid of abuse.  So the items come with so many strings that you end up in the mother of all railroads.  It becomes a novel, not a game.

If the item has serious drawbacks, most PCs would prefer not to use it.  If the PC must use the item to succeed, we're clearly on a railroad, even if it is well-intentioned.  It's different if the PCs decide that they'd prefer to use a dangerous item as a reliable way to accomplish their goal, but if it is the only solution, then it's really, really, boring.  

My opinion, anyways.

Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Quote from: The Traveller;595652Can't say I found the Lord of the Rings terribly boring. Its a useful enough tool as long as its not overused, preferably kept for the big stuff and with lots of routes to reach the one goal to rule them all.

That's my point.  It's fine for a novel, because the author is orchestrating both the actions of the protagonists and the actions of the antagonists, with the intended result of making a dramatic story.  It's possible for a dramatic story to emerge in a game, but choice needs to be more than an illusion.  Not every character in a novel needs to wrestle with what to do and how to do it, but that tends to be an important part of the game.

It starts with 'as a character, you don't have to go on an adventure you don't want to'.  Now, a bad DM will run a specific adventure regardless of whether the players want to play, and anyone that sits out sits out of the game.  But while the DM might be within his rights to decide what game he's going to run, it's still the sign of a bad DM.  Players should have choices.  

Giving them items that are crappy items or have terrible consequences either allows them to choose the item or requires it.  If it is a choice, smart players will choose not to use them.  If it's not a choice, it's bad adventure design.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;595655Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Yeah, cause we're playing a SEAL team that is expected to return to civilian life?  

No, we're playing as career adventurers.  They're 'on duty' all the time.  Whether they're relaxing at the King's Ball or delving into the dungeon, they're looking for something to happen.  And because it's a game, most of the time something will be happening.  

Now, I'm not saying that the PCs should always have access to particular items.  It's fine to have an item that is useful for a specific quest and then it ceases to be useful.  It's also okay for the PCs to get an item and then decide that it is better to destroy that item rather than allow it to fall into the wrong hands.  It's absolutely fine to give PCs a reason not to over-use a particular item without making it so that using it too much gives you testicular cancer.  But generally, when I see that type of behavior, I see it from DMs that don't trust their players.

Considering how much people here like to say 'show me where the bad DM touched you' or 'you just need to trust your DM', I'd say it goes both ways.  If the DM can't give the party a 'fun' item without worrying about the consequences all the time, that's a sign that the DM has problems, not that I can't think 'in-character'.  

Magic should be 'special'.  Not every game could support a 'shop', but most have magic common enough that it could, and logically should.  If every item is 'cursed', than nobody would be expected to use magical items to begin with.  I see that as throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Quote from: CRKrueger;595655Yeah because the SEALS get to take their weapons, armor and insertion vehicles home with them for those crazy weekends on Lake Havasu.  Larry Ellison hands over the keys to his 300ft yacht to the Oracle salesman of the year, don't bother returning it or anything.

Is it possible for you to ever think in-character about anything? Jesus Wept.

Yes, and magical items or artefacts in myth and legend never had any drawbacks.  They worked exactly as they said on the tin every time, and no one was corrupted or suffered any kind of setback whatsoever using them.  Artefacts having deleterious effects on the user is wholly an invention of Vintage AD&D Gaming.

Just for reference I do not think all items shoudl have downsides in and of themselves.
I do think that powerful items should have a reputation and indeed much like amarcis says a lore check should reveal it's history and backstory with degrees of success giving more detail and hints about powers etc.

I do think that once a PC starts to demonstrate their ownership of the Green Destiny, One ring of Power, etc that they will attract the attention of NPCs of interest. So the downside of owning the Father of Swords isn't so much that it gives you testicular cancer so much as it attracts thieves, bravos and assasins which is an in game, in character downside as opposed to a meta downside.


Tieing this thread back to Traveller's thread on shoul low level magic items actually be 'magical at all'? I think there is possibly an ideal system where low level items like +1 or maybe +2 weapons, potions etc could be created using materials, so a certain sort of rare metal creates these arms and weapons valerian steel, adamantine, mithril. Or a certain mix of herbs and rare creature parts, creates potions. Bu thte more powerful items are created my mages with great skill and are unique.

So you have a market for lesser items which is really about quality production with skilled artisans searching for rare materials.

Then at the top end you get the power items whch you treat like aretfacts and each has a backstory etc.

At the end of the day, the only realistic answer is "it depends on the setting." Glorantha? Yeah, fits. A Viking campaign? Not so much. And so on.

DeadDM, it kind of depends on the specifics. Let's say you've got a highly lethal combat system. PCs die every other session or so, even with only one fight a week. And here's a magic item that more or less automatically wins fights but drags you down to hell after being used 3 times.

People will use that, even given a choice, because they can predict when the drawback of using it will occur, but not when the drawback of *not* using it will occur. Hell, they may even use it all three times if the third fight especially matters to their character. Maybe to avoid a TPK? Save a town the party likes? Point is stakes can be high without relating them to individual character death.

Quote from: StormBringer;595703Yes, and magical items or artefacts in myth and legend never had any drawbacks.  They worked exactly as they said on the tin every time, and no one was corrupted or suffered any kind of setback whatsoever using them.  Artefacts having deleterious effects on the user is wholly an invention of Vintage AD&D Gaming.

Is that what you think I said?  Stop being a dumbass.  

Rarely, it might make sense for an artifact to have some dolorous side effects, but usually it's used as gamist block to keep PCs from having fun.  Better not to include such artifacts.  It's 'fun' for the DM, not the players.  There are plenty of reasons why the PCs wouldn't want to abuse an artifact besides 'curse'.  If you can't think of any, than you're the ones that lack creativity.

As for artifacts from myth and legend that have intrinsic ill effects, I'd be curious to know which ones you mean.  In a general sense, the 'corruption' you associate with certain powerful items is allegorical for 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'.  The question becomes whether the item itself causes corruption, or just using the item.  Honestly, allowing a player to get 'corrupted' by overusing the item without any mechanical effects seems appropriate.  If you have a 'superweapon' that kills people outside of your intended area, dealing with the consequences of that 'in-game' could be fun.  Rolling a sanity check, no thank you.  That's boring.  

It's specifically a gamist curb on power when there are other ways to address it.  Other ways that are consistent with the game world.  

There is a place for 'cursed artifacts', but it should be rare, and it should have a very good reason for existing.  It should also be fun for the players, not just the DM.  

JibbaJibba has the right of it - in-game consequences are appropriate, but curses and sanity checks are meta-concepts.  They're a crutch, and a weak one.