So, what are you thoughts about what we know?

It's too early for me to give you anything substantive. I like that it has generated discussion, that much I can say. But then I like to communicate, and talk, and just shoot the shit.

No matter the concerns I have, and have expressed in other threads, I won't make a decision until I have final product in my hand.

I'll buy the PHB and see how it's different and go from there.

To do otherwise would be...let's see...parochial and closeminded. :haw:

I think that by and large what has come out of both Wizards itself, and the rumor mill, is so self-contradictory and vague is to be virtually worthless.

What little I have seen however that actually comes straight from the horse's mouth at Wizards, as opposed to idiots like Brad Walker who like to run about making wild guess and stating them as fact, suggest that they're making a collossal mistake and catering to a niche audience of malcontents instead of playing to the mainstream audience that is their bread and butter.

I am not hopeful, based on what little I've heard, whether it's press releases that read like they're tagging bullet points of 3.x hater posts, anti-Western fantasy snark in TBO9S, all the wrong people praising SWSAGA, or even the choice of Mike Mearls as a lead designer with way too much time invested in following the minority voices on Internet forums.

What I am seeing gives strong indication that they've fallen squarely into the forum trap that afflicts so many vidgames, especially MMOs, catering to the whims of the small group of vocal whiners who populate the Internet forums, while forgetting entirely about the silent and satisfied majority of players.  

And that's just damn sad.  I'd really hate for RPGs to go the way of hex-and-counter wargames, and if D&D of all things has fallen straight for aiming at the Internet hardcore, then that is exactly what will happen.

It's early yet, but I like much of what I've heard. Still some misgivings - such as the roles of monsters, the discussion of which seems to indicate they may not be as customizable as in 3e, but that could be just my (mis)reading of it. But overall, I like the general attitude by the designers. The video of the Mearls interview especially made me feel more confident that I'll like this new edition.

I like most of what I've heard so far, mainly because it's causing J Arcane such intense grief.
:evillaugh:

Seriously, I like what is being said about 'streamlining' the system, making prep work less of a chore, making the game move more quickly (especially combat), weakening the dependency on magic items, and extending the 'sweet spot' by inflating the level range to 1-30.

I dislike the possibility that all classes will have ersatz spells, and the whole 'per encounter' approach to resource management.

On balance, I'm cautiously optimistic.  I'll definitely buy the PHB, even if I end up sticking with the RC, C&C, and RMC.
:cool:

Honestly, I don't like any of it. But then, the only 3.x I liked was pre-2002 corebooks 3.0 sans multi-classing, so I'm hardly stunned by the sudden turn of events or anything.

Quote from: J ArcaneI am not hopeful, based on what little I've heard, whether it's press releases that read like they're tagging bullet points of 3.x hater posts, anti-Western fantasy snark in TBO9S, all the wrong people praising SWSAGA, or even the choice of Mike Mearls as a lead designer with way too much time invested in following the minority voices on Internet forums.

I think it's a bit nuts to equate "I like SW Saga" or "I like Bo9S" with "3.x Hater."  It is possible to like D&D 3.x and still want 4e to be a little different.

KoOS

Far too early to tell yet isn't it? A couple of days since the announcement. I'll wait untill more details are released until i have more to say. I haven't got either Bo9S or the new Star wars saga game, so i remain blissfully ignorant until more is revealed.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI think it's a bit nuts to equate "I like SW Saga" or "I like Bo9S" with "3.x Hater."  It is possible to like D&D 3.x and still want 4e to be a little different.

KoOS

You've read me all wrong.  Your cause and effect is out of order.

If the same people repeatedly trash a game you enjoy, and go on and on about X game is better, are you really going to consider them a reliable source of opinion regarding a game?  

Time and time again, the same people show up, bagging on 3.x, misrepresenting or just flat out lying about the game, and going on and on about how True20/C&C/RC/Megaultrasuperlitekawaii20/etc, or whatever their favorite set of pet houserules is "better" than 3.x.  So yeah, I'm gonna question their judgement when they go on to make exactly the same statements as if from a script about SAGA.  

Further more, read the goddamn press release they posted on TMP, and then compare it with these people's posts.  Watch that stupid fucking video.  The Tome of Battle comment is based on a quote from the actual goddamn book.  It's like I'm living in bizarro land, where suddenly these idiots have managed to hijack Wizards, so instead of reading this shit on webforums, I'm hearing the very same things from the mouth of the beast itself.  

Now explain to me how in the hell that's not supposed to concern me, who loves D&D just fine, and whose tastes could not possible get more mainstream when it comes to what appeals to me about the game?

I don't have nearly enough to form an opinion.

Things like, "all characters will have abilities they can use a limited number of times per encounter/day" -- I can see that being good, or not being good.  I would have to see the actual implementation to decide one way or the other.

So I probably won't decide until May 2008 when the books come out.

I'm optimistic that it'll be a good game.  Most of the things I've heard so far erode that optimism.

It sounds like it could be a lot different from classic D&D... which makes me think about which is more D&D -- the game with the same name, or a game with a different name but a similar feel + gameplay (eg. C&C).

This week's news did make me want to buy a D&D book though!  I just bought the Moldvay edition Expert Rulebook on Ebay.

J Arcane, what did you play before 3e came out? I mean, lots of stuff probably, but what was your go-to game?

I'm quite optimistic.  I like most of what I've heard.

I think people are reading way too much into the stated SWSE/Bo9s/Mearl-Iron-Heroes influences to conclude "D&D is going fucking Exalted/Anime!" or some such.

Personally, as I expressed in the "Everyone a fucking wizard" thread, I think we're mainly going to see a set of fixes to mechanics that were forgotten about in the 3e upgrade.  These mechanical changes will change the flavour of the game, but not to a drastic effect.

I'll even make a bold prediction (just because I can): D&D 4e will feel more like 1e than 3.x ever did.

I think it will run faster than 3e, and will be more like 1e in that sense.

We'll see.

J Arcane?