Hey guys, I have been hanging out on the forum for a while and finally got myself to register a profile.
This post is mostly intended for Glorantha veterans who have a bigger picture of the game world than I.
Recently, I have been motivated about the Runequest Glorantha. I used to play Runequest a few times
in the 90´s and early 2000´s. Even participating in a few LARP events set in Glorantha and playing
one shots in RPG events. I never got too deep in the lore of it, until now. I have owned Glorantha
game material for a long time, though it has mostly just been gathering dust, if anything else.
Anyhow, now that I have started reading the game material with an intent (and have also ran a few
sessions, both in Sartar and Sun County) Glorantha has started to rub me the wrong way, so to say.
Don´t get me wrong, I absolutely love some of the ideas in the game world and absolutely abhor the
others. The prevalence of feminism and matriarchal power is just unbearable to me for I see TTRPG´s
as just about the only good escapes from this misandry in society and culture. I see it as kind of SJW
before SJW was a thing in RPG´s. Though, like mentioned earlier, I do see a huge potential in Glorantha,
if tweaked heavily. My problem rises from that since the mythology of it is so vast, small changes in the
early mythology might cause a snowball effect in later years.
I thought about posting this on the official Chaosium forum, though I decided against it for I would have
likely been banned from it due to their SJW/feminist/LTBTQ agenda, so I posted it here instead.
To counter what I see as a problem, I have pondered on several things:
1) Playing in Dara Happan culture, where Yelm is still the boss and/or Orlanth never overcame him and
Yelm´s men did sell Ernalda to troll slavers, what would that entail? Has anyone done this? There doesen´t
seem to be a lot of game material to cover this and I don´t know where to start. Any ideas?
2) What if Genert did not have daughters, but sons, whom form the Genertela and thus maybe minimizes the
the need for feminine Earth cults and their priestesses.
3) Does the game really need Feathered Horse Queen to grant the kingship to a ruler of Dragon Pass?
And if not, then what do you see as happening to the game world if FHQ´s never existed?
3) Vingans, Maran Gorians, Kallyr Starbrow, Leika Black Spear and other female warrior groups and
individuals, are they really essential in your oppinion?
4) Do the Uz/Troll culture need to be matriarchal, and if not, how to go about it? I mean, Only Old One/Ezkankekko,
Arkat the Troll and so forth, which basically were big bosses in not only Uz society but beyond, were
not female, which in my reasoning, kind of lessens the need for matriarchal power structure. What
if Kyger Litor was male instead, what would that entail?
5) It´s easy to do away with all the non-binary sexes and ways of marriage but would this cause any
problems?
6) It seems to me that almost all gender roles are twisted in the starting cultures of the core book. I mean in just
about all of them, women are the rational ones and males the emotional ones. I mean, it would basically mean
that "women" are the ones with testosterone dominancy ja "males" the ones with estrogene dominancy. Wouldn´t
that basically mean that in time, the genetic makeup of the gender are on a collision course with the chromosomes.
Yes, I know, it´s a fantasy game, though I still see this as silly, I mean that would basically mean that males give
birth and nurture the children and women are the warriors and earners, right?
Anyway, I know I had some other things in mind but I can´t come up with anything more. I´d love to hear your
thoughs on these, thanks!
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 07:59:02 AM
Hey guys, I have been hanging out on the forum for a while and finally got myself to register a profile.
5) It´s easy to do away with all the non-binary sexes and ways of marriage but would this cause any problems?
Well...what about Androgeus? If there is somebody non binary him/her/it would be at the top of the list.
Personally, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The place is Bronze Age. There are going to be Paternal and Maternal cults and cultures. It's
your Glorantha: Change whatever you don't like, tell people that what they heard might not be quite true, and if they are total grognards about changing the story, invite them to leave or run there own Glorantha (or both).
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast on September 11, 2022, 08:40:26 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 07:59:02 AM
Hey guys, I have been hanging out on the forum for a while and finally got myself to register a profile.
5) It´s easy to do away with all the non-binary sexes and ways of marriage but would this cause any problems?
Well...what about Androgeus? If there is somebody non binary him/her/it would be at the top of the list.
Personally, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. The place is Bronze Age. There are going to be Paternal and Maternal cults and cultures. It's your Glorantha: Change whatever you don't like, tell people that what they heard might not be quite true, and if they are total grognards about changing the story, invite them to leave or run there own Glorantha (or both).
Thanks for the reply.
In all honesty, Androgeus and IRL Bronze Age are not my main concern here, for I don´t
intend to make my Glorantha in the image of our world in a sense of maternal cults, but mostly as an escape from
our world as mentioned in the original post. I also have a regular group of players with same values as I, so the concern
regarding the binarism and what not is mostly on how it would affect the game world instead of how it would
be seen by HC Glorantha fanboys.
I'm far from an expert on Glorantha, but I suspect you would probably be better off just not using the current version of the setting, rather than trying to edit the wokeness out of it. I did a brief read-through of the "Runequest & Glorantha" corebook not that long ago, and it might be the single most woke RPG book I've ever read. So you'd probably have to change a lot. In my experience, selectively editing an existing setting tends to confuse players, as they have to remember when reading the book which things are canon and which aren't. If I were you, I would do one of three things:
1. Get a hold of an older (hopefully less woke) Glorantha sourcebook, and then tell your players "We're using the rules from the new book, but the lore from the old one"
2. Find another setting to run. If you want an extremely un-woke setting which is at least heavily inspired by the bronze age, you could look at converting material from the Tales of Gor RPG, but there's also been plenty of Runequest settings published over the years.
3. Just homebrew your own bronze-age fantasy setting.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 11, 2022, 09:48:45 AM
I'm far from an expert on Glorantha, but I suspect you would probably be better off just not using the current version of the setting, rather than trying to edit the wokeness out of it. I did a brief read-through of the "Runequest & Glorantha" corebook not that long ago, and it might be the single most woke RPG book I've ever read. So you'd probably have to change a lot. In my experience, selectively editing an existing setting tends to confuse players, as they have to remember when reading the book which things are canon and which aren't. If I were you, I would do one of three things:
1. Get a hold of an older (less woke) Glorantha sourcebook, and then tell your players "We're using the rules from the new book, but the lore from the old one"
2. Find another setting to run. If you want an extremely un-woke setting which is at least heavily inspired by the bronze age, you could look at converting material from the Tales of Gor RPG, but there's also just been plenty of Runequest settings published over the years.
3. Just homebrew your own bronze-age fantasy setting.
Thanks for the reply.
You are right, I do have to change a lot, though I am ready for it, for like mentioned in the original post, I do love parts of the lore very much. My
group of players are in favor of changing the lore (even if one of them is a Glorantha GM himself and runs it mostly in vanilla) though they did
mention that they would rather roleplay the changes in lore than just be dictated by the GM, fx. they would rather defend Yelm and kick
the ass of Orlanth, than just be told that "this is how it went". It would involve quite high-powered campaign though.
1) I do have a quite a pile of older Glorantha sourcebooks, though the situation lore-wise is pretty much the same, even if not as "in your face".
2) I already run Hârn, which is not woke to say the least. Tales of Gor is new to me, seems to be pulpy in nature, I will check it out.
3) Yeah, that is an option, though I would assume it would take even larger effort and time than converting an existing one :(
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
1) I do have a quite a pile of older Glorantha sourcebooks, though the situation lore-wise is pretty much the same, even if not as "in your face".
That's a pity. I've tried to get into Glorantha a few times, and even though on paper its full of elements I should love, something about it has always bumped me. Maybe that's what it was.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
2) I already run Hârn, which is not woke to say the least. Tales of Gor is new to me, seems to be pulpy in nature, I will check it out.
Gor is much more in the realm of sword-and-planet/soft-sci fi than it is of fantasy, but I find it hits the tone of a bronze or iron age adventure setting better than most other worlds that try it. I will warn you that the setting comes with a bit of baggage of its own (there's been some controversy around the sexual politics of the author), but if it intrigues you, I'd recommend that you give the first novel, "A Tarnsman of Gor", a try. It'd probably be a cheaper starting place than the RPG book, it's an extremely solid science fantasy adventure, and it'll give you a pretty good idea of the setting. If you like it, then there's like 30 books out there you can read (plus the RPG line). If not, then you can trade the book in and move on having lost almost nothing.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
3) Yeah, that is an option, though I would assume it would take even larger effort and time than converting an existing one :(
Yes and no, I would say. Yes, in that writing up a whole homebrew world with the kind of detail that Glorantha now has would probably be an unfeasibly large undertaking.
No, in that you can work up the broad strokes of a world (tone, tech level, major factions, rough geography etc.) in an afternoon, and then build the rest out through the game. That might end up being less work than having to go line-by-line through a Glorantha sourcebook and figure out what edits you want to make, and then having to go back through and figure out what additional changes have to be made due to knock-on effects of the ones you've already made.
Is all of the feminism new or was it baked into the game from the start? I played a little of the first edition but its been so long I don't recall it then, other than the female associated cults. That and the Dragon Pass computer game (which while rather retro in style, is an interesting deep dive into the Orlanthi culture stuff).
Glorantha has always been somewhere where you can have your own interpretation of the lore - especially early on when so much was undefined. So it's no wonder that the latest writers are putting their own spin on the lore.
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is. But it also gives you a clear enemy that everyone can hate, so Broos are cool (to me).
The real secret to Glorantha is that it is complex - you can find almost any culture you want, and the cultures actually matter. So there are sexist cultures, non-sexist cultures, cultures that treat sex as holy, cultures that promote "gender roles", cultures that ignore them, all sorts. It's all there, and these cultures interact with one another. You can have a game that feels real, but it's a fantasy world. It's even got racism built into the rules (-10 cha when interacting with other races, at least in the original rules).
YGMV was Greg's way of saying, "If you don't like something that's been published, don't worry, your game can be different and no one can tell you 'You're doing it wrong' whilst pointing at the rulebook." If you want to run a game free from modern day interpretations of history, go for it. Glorantha will let you do it.
Quote from: Lynn on September 11, 2022, 02:13:55 PM
Is all of the feminism new or was it baked into the game from the start? I played a little of the first edition but its been so long I don't recall it then, other than the female associated cults. That and the Dragon Pass computer game (which while rather retro in style, is an interesting deep dive into the Orlanthi culture stuff).
A lot of the things that Angry Goblin is complaining about are present in the material at least as of 3rd edition published by Avalon Hill in 1984, and I'm pretty sure they were there in earlier editions. Goddesses are often important, like the Red Goddess who had shaken things up in recent times, or Cult of Ernaldi, which was the example cult in 3rd edition. Trolls were always matriarchal.
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2022, 06:16:21 PMA lot of the things that Angry Goblin is complaining about are present in the material at least as of 3rd edition published by Avalon Hill in 1984, and I'm pretty sure they were there in earlier editions. Goddesses are often important, like the Red Goddess who had shaken things up in recent times, or Cult of Ernaldi, which was the example cult in 3rd edition. Trolls were always matriarchal.
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Thanks, that's sort of what I thought. It always seemed to me that Runequest / Glorantha's strength and weakness came from the same place - a depth that could be 'unfathomable.'
Quote from: spon on September 11, 2022, 05:16:43 PM
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is.
Is that still in the present game?
Quote from: spon on September 11, 2022, 05:16:43 PM
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is.
Is that still in the present game?
[/quote]
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 11, 2022, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
1) I do have a quite a pile of older Glorantha sourcebooks, though the situation lore-wise is pretty much the same, even if not as "in your face".
That's a pity. I've tried to get into Glorantha a few times, and even though on paper its full of elements I should love, something about it has always bumped me. Maybe that's what it was.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
2) I already run Hârn, which is not woke to say the least. Tales of Gor is new to me, seems to be pulpy in nature, I will check it out.
Gor is much more in the realm of sword-and-planet/soft-sci fi than it is of fantasy, but I find it hits the tone of a bronze or iron age adventure setting better than most other worlds that try it. I will warn you that the setting comes with a bit of baggage of its own (there's been some controversy around the sexual politics of the author), but if it intrigues you, I'd recommend that you give the first novel, "A Tarnsman of Gor", a try. It'd probably be a cheaper starting place than the RPG book, it's an extremely solid science fantasy adventure, and it'll give you a pretty good idea of the setting. If you like it, then there's like 30 books out there you can read (plus the RPG line). If not, then you can trade the book in and move on having lost almost nothing.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 10:07:41 AM
3) Yeah, that is an option, though I would assume it would take even larger effort and time than converting an existing one :(
Yes and no, I would say. Yes, in that writing up a whole homebrew world with the kind of detail that Glorantha now has would probably be an unfeasibly large undertaking.
No, in that you can work up the broad strokes of a world (tone, tech level, major factions, rough geography etc.) in an afternoon, and then build the rest out through the game. That might end up being less work than having to go line-by-line through a Glorantha sourcebook and figure out what edits you want to make, and then having to go back through and figure out what additional changes have to be made due to knock-on effects of the ones you've already made.
Yes, you are right. I think I will just run a campaign set in Dara Happa before Lunar takeover or something :D I get away with less needless work.
Quote from: Lynn on September 11, 2022, 02:13:55 PM
Is all of the feminism new or was it baked into the game from the start? I played a little of the first edition but its been so long I don't recall it then, other than the female associated cults. That and the Dragon Pass computer game (which while rather retro in style, is an interesting deep dive into the Orlanthi culture stuff).
Thanks for the reply.
I guess that´s up to intepretation whether it is "feminism" or not, but basically in way too many (opinnion) Genertelan and Pamaltelan cultures men, even kings etc. have only the amount of power allowed by females, like fx. Feathered Horse Queen chooses (and thus controls) the King of Dragon Pass, who ever that is in any timeline. Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
Quote from: spon on September 11, 2022, 05:16:43 PM
Glorantha has always been somewhere where you can have your own interpretation of the lore - especially early on when so much was undefined. So it's no wonder that the latest writers are putting their own spin on the lore.
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is. But it also gives you a clear enemy that everyone can hate, so Broos are cool (to me).
The real secret to Glorantha is that it is complex - you can find almost any culture you want, and the cultures actually matter. So there are sexist cultures, non-sexist cultures, cultures that treat sex as holy, cultures that promote "gender roles", cultures that ignore them, all sorts. It's all there, and these cultures interact with one another. You can have a game that feels real, but it's a fantasy world. It's even got racism built into the rules (-10 cha when interacting with other races, at least in the original rules).
YGMV was Greg's way of saying, "If you don't like something that's been published, don't worry, your game can be different and no one can tell you 'You're doing it wrong' whilst pointing at the rulebook." If you want to run a game free from modern day interpretations of history, go for it. Glorantha will let you do it.
Thanks for the reply.
Well said, the game world is rich indeed and allows for all kinds of campaigns. I guess the main problem is, when/if I change one thing, how does it affect the big picture. I am not so deeply familiar with Glorantha to do it well.
Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: Lynn on September 11, 2022, 02:13:55 PM
Is all of the feminism new or was it baked into the game from the start? I played a little of the first edition but its been so long I don't recall it then, other than the female associated cults. That and the Dragon Pass computer game (which while rather retro in style, is an interesting deep dive into the Orlanthi culture stuff).
A lot of the things that Angry Goblin is complaining about are present in the material at least as of 3rd edition published by Avalon Hill in 1984, and I'm pretty sure they were there in earlier editions. Goddesses are often important, like the Red Goddess who had shaken things up in recent times, or Cult of Ernaldi, which was the example cult in 3rd edition. Trolls were always matriarchal.
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, it seems that the main plotline has been around for a long time.
Quote from: Lynn on September 11, 2022, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2022, 06:16:21 PMA lot of the things that Angry Goblin is complaining about are present in the material at least as of 3rd edition published by Avalon Hill in 1984, and I'm pretty sure they were there in earlier editions. Goddesses are often important, like the Red Goddess who had shaken things up in recent times, or Cult of Ernaldi, which was the example cult in 3rd edition. Trolls were always matriarchal.
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Thanks, that's sort of what I thought. It always seemed to me that Runequest / Glorantha's strength and weakness came from the same place - a depth that could be 'unfathomable.'
Unfathomable, couldn´t have said it better myself.
Quote from: spon on September 12, 2022, 09:27:42 AM
Quote from: spon on September 11, 2022, 05:16:43 PM
As to being f*inist/SJW, there's always been room in the game for playing that sort of game, but it was never so "up front" as it seems these days. But it really doesn't matter. There's so much that is so NOT that way inclined you can have endless fun.
For example, Broos worship the god of rape. If that's not "triggering", I don't know what is.
Is that still in the present game?
[/quote]
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
[/quote]
King of Sartar (the book) is pretty much the condensed the canon game lore and the story of how Thed became the goddess of rape is there atleast. I think it has not been mentioned in the RGQ material though.
Patriarchal Glorantha? Pretty sure to a lot of people that means "okay we know your Glorantha may vary, but this is objectively wrong and you are a bad person" ;D
Quote from: spon on September 12, 2022, 09:27:42 AM
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.
Quote from: TheShadow on September 13, 2022, 03:50:05 AM
Patriarchal Glorantha? Pretty sure to a lot of people that means "okay we know your Glorantha may vary, but this is objectively wrong and you are a bad person" ;D
Indeed, I am a bad person and this is exactly the reason why I didn´t post it on Chaosium forum ;)
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 13, 2022, 03:52:19 AM
Quote from: spon on September 12, 2022, 09:27:42 AM
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.
I checked the Glorantha Sourcebook and it has Thed mentioned, though the book does not mention about what Thed is a goddess of ::)
(p. 120, 123)
Quote from: jhkim on September 11, 2022, 06:16:21 PM
I'd leave open whether these qualify as feminism. To my mind, they reflect pretty well a lot of Bronze Age ideas rather than being modernist.
Agreed. I have rarely read much, if any, Glorantha Lore as being anything resembling modern feminism.
Plus, if we want to read it in modern tones, a lot of Orlanthi lore, especially around the history of Sartar is misogynist. Look at the requirement that female worshippers of Lhankhor Mhy or what Kallyr Starbrow had to do at various time to take on male roles.
What Glorantha does have is specific sexual roles and methods to step outside them, generally to the other sex's role. The exact parameters of both vary by culture. In both of those things, they parallel the real world, not Western feminism.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 02:35:23 AM
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating son.
At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gbaji, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.
That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 03:57:43 AM
Quote from: Naburimannu on September 13, 2022, 03:52:19 AM
Quote from: spon on September 12, 2022, 09:27:42 AM
Not sure, I'll have to check, but it's in MY game, YGMV :-) It's still in the wiki, but not on the Deliath page, so maybe it's been "Gregged". From the books I have, it looks like it's not mentioned when Thed is mentioned in passing, but I haven't found a write up of Thed or her cult yet. AFAIR, it was only mentioned in "printed" RQ2 in Cults of Terror.
There's a brief write up of Thed in the RQ3 Glorantha box set Cults Book as goddess of rape and broos. I got rid of my RQ3 Cults of Terror a few years back so I can't check there, and it doesn't seem to come up obviously in RQ3 Dorastor Lands of Doom.
I checked the Glorantha Sourcebook and it has Thed mentioned, though the book does not mention about what Thed is a goddess of ::)
(p. 120, 123)
That is correct for the box set of Cults and the Glorantha Classics cults compendium book.
In
The Guide to Glorantha on page 704 we have the following:
QuoteThed
Rape, Goddes of Broos
The accursed mother of the broos was an abused slave of Ragnaglar and one of the Unholy Trio. When she brought her children into the world, Thed inflicted on them all of her pain and hatred. She was the mother of Wakboth*, and his malevolence twisted and distorted her further.
Given
The Guide to Glorantha is the definitive resource as the last big thing Greg wrote, I'd say that's official.
I'd point out the entry for Sedenya, The Red Goddess is on the same page in the section on Chaos.
* Same page's entry for Wakboth gives him description of "Evil, the Devil".
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 02:35:23 AM
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.
At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.
That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
Thanks for the reply.
You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 14, 2022, 05:53:35 AM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 02:35:23 AM
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.
At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.
That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
Thanks for the reply.
You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.
Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on September 14, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 14, 2022, 05:53:35 AM
You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.
Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.
I'd second this. Two of the ideas in your initial posts (1 & 4) require such deep changes as to render everything short of maps useless in their face. Two others (5 & 6) would mean ignoring Greg's principle sources and goals in creating Glorantha (every single scrap of world mythology he could get his hands on). I honestly think the fundamental issue you are facing is Glorantha is a world built on a foundation of wide reading in mythology, much of it not part of the Western literary tradition, instead of some form of fantasy literature.
As was pointed out up thread, there are several settings for Mythrus (essentially the prior edition of RQ because it came back to Chaosium) that might serve you better. The Mythic series covers some real-world cultures (Britain, Rome, Constantinople) that would be a better match as well as Lyonesse by Jack Vance.
If you must have Glorantha then I'd recommend trying:
1. Playing in the Second Age with Mongoose materials. The God Learners and the Empire of the Wyrms's Friends have more male centric setup.
2. Playing in the far West or East of Genertela, which seem to have societies closer to what you want. The best resources here are
The Guide to Glorantha (which I suspect is deeper than you'd like to go) or some fan items published under the Jonstown Compendium license.
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 11, 2022, 07:59:02 AM
6) It seems to me that almost all gender roles are twisted in the starting cultures of the core book. I mean in just
about all of them, women are the rational ones and males the emotional ones. I mean, it would basically mean
that "women" are the ones with testosterone dominancy ja "males" the ones with estrogene dominancy. Wouldn´t
that basically mean that in time, the genetic makeup of the gender are on a collision course with the chromosomes.
Yes, I know, it´s a fantasy game, though I still see this as silly, I mean that would basically mean that males give
birth and nurture the children and women are the warriors and earners, right?
Last comment.
As soon as you mention hormones and chromosomes I think you're missing the point of Glorantha. It is a world built in myth, mostly ancient myth with maybe a tiny bit from Axial Age religion. So much of how the world works cannot be explained in any way but magical and mythological. That is why everyone has magic.
Getting away from gender, consider the Morokanth and their Herdmen. There are mystical means to give Herdmen sapience and convert normal humans into Herdmen. Herdmen are grazing animals. There is no way humans can survive as plains grazers, yet there is an entire tribe of humans in Glorantha who, due to losing the drawing of lots after the death of Genert, were to be the fed upon. Not only do they exist, but they can be mystically converted back and forth with regular humans. While there are herbivorous optimized hominids in the fossil record they are not fungible with modern humans via some mystical ceremony. Meanwhile, there is a magical way for Morokanth, tapir-like creatures who won their drawing of lots, to obtain a thumb.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on September 14, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 14, 2022, 05:53:35 AM
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 02:35:23 AM
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating sun.
At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gjabi, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.
That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
Thanks for the reply.
You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.
Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.
Thanks for the reply.
I´v considered Mythras, however since I have a ton of Glorantha-related products already, it would be of little use or they would be for idea mining, which would be almost the same as reworking Glorantha anyways. Considering Dragon Bane, especially since it´s not available any time soon, I´d have to come up with other ways anyhow.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 09:02:17 AM
Quote from: Godsmonkey on September 14, 2022, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 14, 2022, 05:53:35 AM
You are right of course, they might not be "modern feminism", though as you pointed out, too much feminocentrism for my taste.
Instead of reworking all of Glorantha, maybe use a different RQ derived game like Mythras? Heck, the new Dragon Bane kick starter has Ducks in it, if that's your jam.
I'd second this. Two of the ideas in your initial posts (1 & 4) require such deep changes as to render everything short of maps useless in their face. Two others (5 & 6) would mean ignoring Greg's principle sources and goals in creating Glorantha (every single scrap of world mythology he could get his hands on). I honestly think the fundamental issue you are facing is Glorantha is a world built on a foundation of wide reading in mythology, much of it not part of the Western literary tradition, instead of some form of fantasy literature.
As was pointed out up thread, there are several settings for Mythrus (essentially the prior edition of RQ because it came back to Chaosium) that might serve you better. The Mythic series covers some real-world cultures (Britain, Rome, Constantinople) that would be a better match as well as Lyonesse by Jack Vance.
If you must have Glorantha then I'd recommend trying:
1. Playing in the Second Age with Mongoose materials. The God Learners and the Empire of the Wyrms's Friends have more male centric setup.
2. Playing in the far West or East of Genertela, which seem to have societies closer to what you want. The best resources here are The Guide to Glorantha (which I suspect is deeper than you'd like to go) or some fan items published under the Jonstown Compendium license.
I don´t mind shitting on the original sources tbh.
1. I actually got my hands on Dara Happa Stirs, I think I will move forward with that for starters as you said. Sun County is pretty decent also.
2. The Guide to Glorantha is fine, I have it currently and I am more than happy to expend the sweat if it gets the work done to my taste. I´v gone
through Jonstown selection, and it seems to me that there wasn´t much I could use immediately without tweaking, I´m afraid.
I never liked glorantha/bronze age but really liked RQ2e. When Harn came out I vastly preferred the setting and conversation was easy.
Glorantha has become a shitshow.
Thus, the solution is (a) build your own Glorantha, or (b) go back to an earlier version.
I'd go with the original Runequest for lore and whatever edition that you like for mechanics. I don't think Glorantha improved with age, especially when it went from a cool game setting into a weirdo nerd cult.
However, you might find there's no way to run the Glorantha you want because the people who want to play Glorantha may be looking for exactly what you don't want in your Glorantha.
My view is:
(1) If you want non-woke Glorantha get an earlier edition, I think 2e Runequest and the supplements are best. But it was always a hippie new age type setting in Greg Stafford's vision.
(2) If you want an anti-woke bronze age type setting then Tales of Gor fits your desires. It's basically the mirror image of modern feminist fantasy, it's an anti-feminist fantasy.
Neither of these - or the woke current Runequest - are at all realistic depictions of bronze age cultures, though I think old Runequest has a sort of 'truthiness' feel to it that allows for suspension of disbelief. Eg there were no real world matriarchies, but there were real world fantasies of matriarchies, myths of matriarchal cultures, beliefs in powerful goddesses etc, stuff that in Runequest is 'real' in world.
Quote from: PulpHerb on September 14, 2022, 12:03:11 AM
Quote from: Angry Goblin on September 13, 2022, 02:35:23 AM
Red Goddess is above the emperor of Lunar Empire. Notchet is the largest/richest city governed by a Queen and feminine Earth cult. And these are only couple of examples.
The Goddess of the Red Moon is superior to the Emperor of the Empire she created and who is her eternally reincarnating son.
At the same time the Goddess of the Red Moon is considered a force of chaos that threatens the world and threatens to restore Gbaji, through the worship of Nysalor, to the world.
That doesn't sound like modern feminism. If anything, it sounds like a Jordan Peterson lecture. That might not be to your tastes, but I wouldn't label it the spawn of Andrea Dworkin.
I think Stafford & Peterson both read a lot of Carl Jung. Joseph Campbell too.
Glorantha is really not set up for a traditional Judeo-Christian patriarchal worldview. It deliberately sets its face against 'D&D RPG fantasy' - or Tolkien & CS Lewis style literary fantasy. Likewise it's also not particularly compatible with the feminist anti-patriarchal 'woman are wonderful' fantasies, either, though clearly modern Woke Glorantha has been twisted in that direction.
Not sure about Glorantha, but I find that people often misunderstand what powerful goddesses mean in terms of culture. Imagine if we did not understand the language of ancient Athens, but we found numerous statues of of Athena, maybe even some signs that the Parthenon had once held a huge Athena Parthenon. Of course tons of people would immediately think that the city was a matriarchy, or matrilineal, with powerful priestesses, and a female ruler.
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 18, 2022, 10:35:01 PM
I never liked glorantha/bronze age but really liked RQ2e. When Harn came out I vastly preferred the setting and conversation was easy.
Thanks for the reply, can´t argue with that ;D
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:16:53 AM
Glorantha has become a shitshow.
Thus, the solution is (a) build your own Glorantha, or (b) go back to an earlier version.
I'd go with the original Runequest for lore and whatever edition that you like for mechanics. I don't think Glorantha improved with age, especially when it went from a cool game setting into a weirdo nerd cult.
However, you might find there's no way to run the Glorantha you want because the people who want to play Glorantha may be looking for exactly what you don't want in your Glorantha.
Thanks for the reply.
As you said, a shitshow, truly. It seems to me that the whole lore has been retconned so many times that it is a project of itself to dig up what is original anymore. Glorantha indeed is not like wine, unless we mean that it has turned into undrinkable vinegar by now.
Quote from: Trond on November 19, 2022, 01:11:58 PM
Not sure about Glorantha, but I find that people often misunderstand what powerful goddesses mean in terms of culture. Imagine if we did not understand the language of ancient Athens, but we found numerous statues of of Athena, maybe even some signs that the Parthenon had once held a huge Athena Parthenon. Of course tons of people would immediately think that the city was a matriarchy, or matrilineal, with powerful priestesses, and a female ruler.
I agree with that. Or the Virgin Mary in Catholicism. In the Wilderlands of High Fantasy Athena is the main goddess of the uber-sexist city state of Antil; it took me a while to get my head around that.
Quote from: S'mon on November 19, 2022, 05:38:32 AM
My view is:
(1) If you want non-woke Glorantha get an earlier edition, I think 2e Runequest and the supplements are best. But it was always a hippie new age type setting in Greg Stafford's vision.
(2) If you want an anti-woke bronze age type setting then Tales of Gor fits your desires. It's basically the mirror image of modern feminist fantasy, it's an anti-feminist fantasy.
Neither of these - or the woke current Runequest - are at all realistic depictions of bronze age cultures, though I think old Runequest has a sort of 'truthiness' feel to it that allows for suspension of disbelief. Eg there were no real world matriarchies, but there were real world fantasies of matriarchies, myths of matriarchal cultures, beliefs in powerful goddesses etc, stuff that in Runequest is 'real' in world.
Thanks for the reply.
The hippie/new age stuff truly shows through, "going back to divine feminine" type of stuff *puke* As we didn´t have enough of that poison around as it is. Second recommendation for Gor already, not bad 8) I am not necessarily after authentic bronze age.
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:16:53 AMHowever, you might find there's no way to run the Glorantha you want because the people who want to play Glorantha may be looking for exactly what you don't want in your Glorantha.
This is IMO the most important point. Anyone who wants to play a game set in Glorantha wants it to be Glorantha from the books. Anyone who doesn't care about Glorantha won't care either way. So there really isn't an audience for a modified version of Glorantha.
I started playing Runequest in 1984 and used Glorantha as my main setting until about 1993. I own a nearly complete set of books from first, second, and third edition including unpunched copies of the White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods boardgames. So I'm not a neophyte when it comes to Gloranthan lore.
I will ALWAYS recommend creating your own unique setting over buying and using someone elses.
That being said, I don't use Glorantha anymore and I'm much happier because of it. I have my own psuedo-Roman ancients setting but it's more based on the occupation of Britain than the invasion of Gaul. It has everything I want and nothing I don't and I no longer feel the need to read 300 page books just to keep up to date.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 23, 2022, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:16:53 AMHowever, you might find there's no way to run the Glorantha you want because the people who want to play Glorantha may be looking for exactly what you don't want in your Glorantha.
This is IMO the most important point. Anyone who wants to play a game set in Glorantha wants it to be Glorantha from the books. Anyone who doesn't care about Glorantha won't care either way. So there really isn't an audience for a modified version of Glorantha.
I started playing Runequest in 1984 and used Glorantha as my main setting until about 1993. I own a nearly complete set of books from first, second, and third edition including unpunched copies of the White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods boardgames. So I'm not a neophyte when it comes to Gloranthan lore.
I will ALWAYS recommend creating your own unique setting over buying and using someone elses.
That being said, I don't use Glorantha anymore and I'm much happier because of it. I have my own psuedo-Roman ancients setting but it's more based on the occupation of Britain than the invasion of Gaul. It has everything I want and nothing I don't and I no longer feel the need to read 300 page books just to keep up to date.
Just curious. Did you see my Bronze Age setting? I came up with it because I started to doubt if I will ever get into Glorantha. Feedback is very welcome :D
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 23, 2022, 01:46:00 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat on November 19, 2022, 02:16:53 AMHowever, you might find there's no way to run the Glorantha you want because the people who want to play Glorantha may be looking for exactly what you don't want in your Glorantha.
This is IMO the most important point. Anyone who wants to play a game set in Glorantha wants it to be Glorantha from the books. Anyone who doesn't care about Glorantha won't care either way. So there really isn't an audience for a modified version of Glorantha.
I started playing Runequest in 1984 and used Glorantha as my main setting until about 1993. I own a nearly complete set of books from first, second, and third edition including unpunched copies of the White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods boardgames. So I'm not a neophyte when it comes to Gloranthan lore.
I will ALWAYS recommend creating your own unique setting over buying and using someone elses.
That being said, I don't use Glorantha anymore and I'm much happier because of it. I have my own psuedo-Roman ancients setting but it's more based on the occupation of Britain than the invasion of Gaul. It has everything I want and nothing I don't and I no longer feel the need to read 300 page books just to keep up to date.
Thanks for the reply!
In my group, the modified "anti-progressive" Glorantha was well received so I lack the experience you mentioned. They even bought a bunch of Glorantha/Runequest t-shirts from RedBubble to play in ;D ;D ;D but anyhow, you are right of course, when you make a game by yourself you get to choose exactly the elements you prefer to have.
Quote from: S'mon on November 19, 2022, 05:48:32 AM
I think Stafford & Peterson both read a lot of Carl Jung. Joseph Campbell too.
Glorantha is really not set up for a traditional Judeo-Christian patriarchal worldview. It deliberately sets its face against 'D&D RPG fantasy' - or Tolkien & CS Lewis style literary fantasy. Likewise it's also not particularly compatible with the feminist anti-patriarchal 'woman are wonderful' fantasies, either, though clearly modern Woke Glorantha has been twisted in that direction.
I know Stafford read a lot of Campbell. I can't speak for Peterson nor about Jung for either, but it would track.
I'd say anything before Greg's death isn't going to be too woke infected and, yes, it is not setup for either a Christian influenced world or any modern ideology. I'm not sure how accurate it is to the pre-Christian west or other parts of Classical and older civilization and even saying "Glorantha is" for the period Greg was in charge is hard to do, but I will say done right it is as alien to modern Americans as Tekumel is.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 23, 2022, 01:46:00 PM
I started playing Runequest in 1984 and used Glorantha as my main setting until about 1993. I own a nearly complete set of books from first, second, and third edition including unpunched copies of the White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods boardgames. So I'm not a neophyte when it comes to Gloranthan lore.
Very jealous of the Nomad Gods copy. I can't understand why it has never been reprinted.
I played exactly once at a meeting of the Gold Triangle Conflict Gamers when I was in the sixth grade, so circa 1979.
Quote from: PulpHerb on December 06, 2022, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 23, 2022, 01:46:00 PM
I started playing Runequest in 1984 and used Glorantha as my main setting until about 1993. I own a nearly complete set of books from first, second, and third edition including unpunched copies of the White Bear Red Moon and Nomad Gods boardgames. So I'm not a neophyte when it comes to Gloranthan lore.
Very jealous of the Nomad Gods copy. I can't understand why it has never been reprinted.
I played exactly once at a meeting of the Gold Triangle Conflict Gamers when I was in the sixth grade, so circa 1979.
This might interest you:
https://therewillbe.games/forum/boardgames/208540-dragon-pass-nomad-gods-getting-a-reprint
https://www.dicebreaker.com/companies/chaosium/news/white-bear-red-moon-nomad-gods-new-editions?
Thanks. I missed those. They're nearly two years old, but here is hoping.
And hoping none of the modern Chaosium leaks in.
I still have my AH Dragonpass, but would love these.
There is one minor error. Nomad Gods has gotten one edition, in French, since the 70s. Every now and then, I try to find it as the map alone is gorgeous.
(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/32468/les-dieux-nomades)
With the rulebook in print and the Vassal module out, I guess you could build your own copy. I've worked on that with PRESTAGS plus Musket & Pike, Grendider, and Rifle & Sabre but my maps are still very sad.
Quote from: S'mon on November 19, 2022, 05:48:32 AM
Glorantha is really not set up for a traditional Judeo-Christian patriarchal worldview. It deliberately sets its face against 'D&D RPG fantasy' - or Tolkien & CS Lewis style literary fantasy. Likewise it's also not particularly compatible with the feminist anti-patriarchal 'woman are wonderful' fantasies, either, though clearly modern Woke Glorantha has been twisted in that direction.
I don't know Glorantha, but Stafford was only one step removed at most from Marion Zimmer Bradley, so I expect there's probably some room for feminist neopagan spins on his work. He definitely had room for it in Pendragon.
I suspect that has a lot less to do with MZB than the fact both were doing Arthur in the 70s and 80s. That stuff is a lot older in 20th century Arthuria no matter how "groundbreaking" Mists of Avalon was supposed to be.