So, which is your favorite character creation system for an OSR game? Just for the sake of this thread, let's say Traveller is not "OSR", I'm talking about the D&D-variation family of games here. Though I suspect taking Trav out of the running just means a shitload of people will pick DCC.
I'm a bit of broken record on this but: Beyond the Wall. The chargen is one of the best things in the game as it uses random but balanced playbook charts that assign background and history which ties the character to the setting, NPCs, adventures in the future, other PCs and even grants stat bonuses.
It is great for what it is intended to do: quickly put a character and party together tied to the setting and each other with adventures built right into the chargen.
Traveller is not OSR because it is OG old school.
I will enthusiastically second Beyond the Wall. It is brilliant at what it does. Character generation actually produces a "character" not just a collection of numbers.
I think Beyond the Wall is pretty slick as well.
If it's got to be D&D or its close relatives, I'll just roll 3d6 in order and live with the consequences. But the only other D&D variants I remember are "roll 3d6 and arrange to your liking," which I can live with, and "roll 4d6 and drop 1 die" (which I have never seen mean anything but drop the lowest die), which I never cared for. What other methods are there?
Yes, Beyond the Wall.
Beyond the Wall is clearly the best for providing interesting background, but I have it in a tie with B/X for those times you just want to get the character done and start the game.
I've never understood the obsessions with the 3d6 in order thing. I started playing in '78 and we did the 4d6 drop 1 thing before the DMG had even came out. Beyond that, D&D (at least basic) has a different ability score modifier system, where you start getting a bonus at 13, while in AD&D, it's 15.
As to OD&D, monsters are pussies, a Balrog has 8+8 hit dice which makes one a challenge for eh, 4th level parties? Abilities matter less there because monsters are such wimps. Unfortunately that carried over to AD&D 1e, but was corrected in 2e and later editions..and 1e also introduced devils, who were designed for AD&D and not carried over from OD&D as is and the devilish equivalent of the Balor/Balrog, the Pit Fiend has 13 HD.
But I digress. I guess Beyond the Wall wins by default, since basically every OSR game uses the same method, roll dice, pick class/race. But the problem with life path generation is that it creates a character for you, not the character you want to play. For some that's a plus, for others it's a minus.
The best part of BtW's character creation system is the part of it that ties the PC into the other PCs.
3d6 in order. Strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, charisma. 3d6 x 10 for gold.
Yeah the DCC full creation process is fun. I like the lucky sign, job, and , random item for what they can be combined to tell a story.
Some of those charts are in dire need of these expnasion though. There are some other alternative "occupation" charts in some of the manuals.
The funny part is the number of demi-humans we end up with even random rolling occupation in DCC.
I think I need to try Beyond the Wall, sounds interesting.
The most interesting character creation is usually some form of Lifepath character creation. If you're going to focus only on OSR, only Beyond the Wall has a Lifepath system, unless there's one somewhere I missed, which is certainly possible. Its chargen suits the subject material perfectly with the creation of the PCs village and their inter-relationships. Quite detailed for such a stripped down, D&D chassis. For Lifepath plus perfect Form Meets Function, it gets a Gold Medal.
AS&SH, being an AD&D variant, has detailed interesting classes that are different from standard AD&D. With the class structure and evocative artwork, it gives you that vibe you had when you first looked at the PHB, but it's new material and much more S&S.
I'd have to give a Gold Medal tie to ACKS chargen. Being a B/X variant, it has simple, modular Basic-style Race+Class combo classes.
Where ACKs excels is with the Player's Companion where every option in chargen is assigned relative values and used to create new classes. You know how some people say "You need a few very broad classes or a hundred specific ones?" Well, in ACKS, making those hundred specific classes to perfectly match your setting is a snap. Brilliant design.
Honorable mention goes to Sine Nomine in general. From all the various options available in the Stars Without Number/Other Dust/Polychrome games, to the new classes of Spears of the Dawn, to Silent Legions to Godbound, Kevin Crawford is doing More with Less, taking a basic D&D frame, and doing something different and interesting with it each time.
Beyond the Wall.
I know it's not D&D and thus outside the criteria, but aside from Traveller my favorite PC generation method was FASA Star Trek. You ended up with a PC with a cool history and justification for his skills. We used to roll them up and see where PCs overlapped and decide on prior mutual assignments to ships, which sometimes would be cool when three PCs who served together on the U.S.S. Saratoga 10 years ago ran into the mysterious wreckage of the U.S.S. Saratoga in uncharted space and played back the final log of their old captain.
Quote from: RPGPundit;966400So, which is your favorite character creation system for an OSR game? Just for the sake of this thread, let's say Traveller is not "OSR", I'm talking about the D&D-variation family of games here. Though I suspect taking Trav out of the running just means a shitload of people will pick DCC.
Ha! I was gonna say DCC.
True, though. Traveller is not OSR.
Roll 36 times (3d6, 4d6 drop low, whatever the DM prefers), recording consecutively. If you add another attribute like COM or Perception than increase to 42. The player can pick any consecutive string of numbers within the larger list. The end wraps with the beginning, so you could start your character stats on roll #34 and it would be (for example) #34 STR, #35 INT, #36 WIS, #1 DEX, #2 CON, #3 CHR if using the 1E AD&D stat array.
You can't switch numbers in or out. But by allowing the player to start their stat array anywhere on the string they get to pick whatever is most important to them overall while accepting what fate gives them for the rest. If they roll an 18 on #34 and want an 18 STR fighter, they will start the array on that number. Their 2nd highest stat might be wisdom because roll #36 happens to be the 2nd highest roll in that ministring - something pretty rare in a fighter arranged to taste. Or they might look for the string of six that has the best overall stats instead of one that has a a couple of high stats paired with some crappy ones. Or they might see a string of six that allows them to qualify for a desired sub-class.
I like it.
When I am playing OD&D or B/X, 3D6 in order. It is one of the main reasons for playing the old games...
Since everyone and their mother has already said Beyond The Wall (which would also be my first response), I'll throw Crypts and Things 2E into the ring. Not as intricate/in-depth as BtW, nor does it create bonds between your and other players' PCs, but still provides a fun glimpse into your character's history.
You make three rolls. The first determines where you come from in Zarth (the game's default setting). For the second, you roll on a table that provides some history and bonus based on your homeland. For the third, you roll on another table that does the same thing but based on your class.
The tables are nice, but all the tables are a D8 roll (except for one which is a D10 but only has 5 options, so basically a D5). I would have liked to see more choices (a D20 for the homeland and class history/bonus tables would have been nice, but that'd be a lot to come up with). Even 2 more options per table would have been nice.
EDIT-Hmm...I've toyed with the idea of making some Sword and Sorcery flavored playbooks for Beyond the Wall. It just occurred to me that I could probably crib a bunch of stuff from Crypts and Things' tables for that purpose.
The other not quite OSR character generation that I really find fun is Gamma World/Metamorphosis Alpha if you use random mutation generation. There is something about the swinginess between awesome power and near helplessness that makes creating characters a hoot. Early editions of Stormbringer had this same feature. You might get a Melnibonean Warrior-Noble-Sorcerer-Priest (near demigod) or you might get a blind, amputee begger.
These are not particularly mechanically interesting character creation systems, they are just fun to play with.
I thought Beyond the Wall was a Pendragon supplement.
It is. The other BtW is fully titled Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures published by Flatland Games.
Just been reading White Star Companion today, basking in the awesomeness that lets you play a King of the Impossible who'll Save Every One of Us - I note it has a great looking lifepath section that can give you your own secret planetoid base - or kill you in chargen. :D
Quote from: S'mon;966950Just been reading White Star Companion today, basking in the awesomeness that lets you play a King of the Impossible who'll Save Every One of Us - I note it has a great looking lifepath section that can give you your own secret planetoid base - or kill you in chargen. :D
And...sold!
Dark Albion has characters roll on random tables for social class origin, and for a random pre-campaign event.
In Lion and Dragon, this is expanded to include early/family careers too.
Quote from: JeremyR;966567I've never understood the obsessions with the 3d6 in order thing.
So the new definition of an obsession is "something someone else likes that I don't"? Have you called Merriam-Webster?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;9665723d6 in order. Strength, intelligence, wisdom, constitution, dexterity, charisma. 3d6 x 10 for gold.
That's what we do if and when we play D&D or its spawn.
I'm a huge fan of 3d6 in order, guys, but that doesn't mean you can't also do stuff like 'prior history tables'.
Point buy from the Rules Cyclopedia. :) Funny thing is, when I started running my Mystara 5e game I was going to use point buy, but the players coming from BECMI/RC D&D just started rolling 3d6 a bunch of times, so I went with that.
ok so now i have to ask - how does Beyond the Wall do PC generation?
My pick - for most fun - is DCC and the funnel. But not for a more serious, longer campaign, where I want to choose my PC.
Quote from: Psikerlord;969213ok so now i have to ask - how does Beyond the Wall do PC generation?
Two stats starts at 10, the rest is 8. Then you pick your Storygame style playbook and randomly roll (or choose if allowed) on the life path options, each of which will give a series of +1 to +3 to specific stats. Some of them also help determine some of your gear and skills as well.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969224Two stats starts at 10, the rest is 8. Then you pick your Storygame style playbook and randomly roll (or choose if allowed) on the life path options, each of which will give a series of +1 to +3 to specific stats. Some of them also help determine some of your gear and skills as well.
hmm ok I think I understand better, thanks - are the life path options random them by default? I assume they are things like; apprentice blacksmith add +2 Str, or studied in the library a lot gain +2 Int, that sort of thing?
I shall have to try and check this out further
Quote from: Psikerlord;969231hmm ok I think I understand better, thanks - are the life path options random them by default? I assume they are things like; apprentice blacksmith add +2 Str, or studied in the library a lot gain +2 Int, that sort of thing?
I shall have to try and check this out further
It's got several tables with about 6-8 choices each (rolled with D6 and 8's natch) with some using D10s or 12s, but they're somewhat 'focused' into what they assume would be logical choices for the archetype you're looking into (Like the Nobleman's Wild Daughter, or the Would-be Knight, so on and so forth.)
I THINK they're free, I know I managed to get most of the stuff and I'm pretty poor, due to being crippled.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969243It's got several tables with about 6-8 choices each (rolled with D6 and 8's natch) with some using D10s or 12s, but they're somewhat 'focused' into what they assume would be logical choices for the archetype you're looking into (Like the Nobleman's Wild Daughter, or the Would-be Knight, so on and so forth.)
I THINK they're free, I know I managed to get most of the stuff and I'm pretty poor, due to being crippled.
Thanks Christopher, yep I'll do a search for some, and Krueger put me onto a great explanatory thread too. Does look like a very fun char gen and shared village building system.
Quote from: Psikerlord;969415Thanks Christopher, yep I'll do a search for some, and Krueger put me onto a great explanatory thread too. Does look like a very fun char gen and shared village building system.
I hope you like it, I know I do. :)
Yay another BtW convert in the works.
It has just occurred to me after rereading the Would-Be Knight's playbook that it is in fact NOT an old styled game, and is in fact a 'Storygame' due to it's use of Fortune Points, which can be used to alter events and die rolls. I withdraw my statement, and apologize.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969618It has just occurred to me after rereading the Would-Be Knight's playbook that it is in fact NOT an old styled game, and is in fact a 'Storygame' due to it's use of Fortune Points, which can be used to alter events and die rolls. I withdraw my statement, and apologize.
So that's your schtick now? Carrying crossthread butthurt around to threadcrap troll every conversation possible in your crusade against the grognards? Pathetic.
Quote from: CRKrueger;969621So that's your schtick now? Carrying crossthread butthurt around to threadcrap troll every conversation possible in your crusade against the grognards? Pathetic.
Huhn? Back to stalking me?
If Storygames are games that use mechanics that allow the change of dice rolls, or situations, that BTW is a storygame. It's not butthurt, it's applying a definition.
Personally, I disagree with the terminology, but if that's what we're using as a definition, then as it's basic, Beyond The Wall is one.
Doesn't mean I'll stop playing it, Scarlet Heroes and D&D 5e.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969626Huhn? Back to stalking me?
If Storygames are games that use mechanics that allow the change of dice rolls, or situations, that BTW is a storygame. It's not butthurt, it's applying a definition.
Personally, I disagree with the terminology, but if that's what we're using as a definition, then as it's basic, Beyond The Wall is one.
Doesn't mean I'll stop playing it, Scarlet Heroes and D&D 5e.
Except of course, you're completely rewording that definition Justin proposed. That definition isn't even close to what you're claiming. So you're willfully inventing this fake definition of Storygame no one used to follow this agenda you currently have and are spreading across multiple threads now that RPGs and Storygames are the same thing simply to troll because the oldsters have been putting a bug up your ass lately. The sulking tantrum even comes complete with the "What? I'm just innocently doing what you said...." Jesus, we're back in 6th grade.
Quote from: RPGPundit;969200I'm a huge fan of 3d6 in order, guys, but that doesn't mean you can't also do stuff like 'prior history tables'.
Prior history tables are fun. It's one of the great parts of FASA Star Trek.
Quote from: CRKrueger;969630Except of course, you're completely rewording that definition Justin proposed. That definition isn't even close to what you're claiming. So you're willfully inventing this fake definition of Storygame no one used to follow this agenda you currently have and are spreading across multiple threads now that RPGs and Storygames are the same thing simply to troll because the oldsters have been putting a bug up your ass lately. The sulking tantrum even comes complete with the "What? I'm just innocently doing what you said...." Jesus, we're back in 6th grade.
No, Storygames, according to Pundit is a game that empowers players to alter the game that the DM is running, and is categorized with mechanical tricks like FATE/Fortune Points/Bennies, there's also a world building system (sort of) in which the players add details to the 'village' that the PC's start at.
Beyond the Wall uses those mechanics as part of their system.
I was not using Justin Alexander's definition.
Pretty sure I heard an interview with one of the designers of BtW where he named AW as an influence.
Quote from: Voros;969684Pretty sure I heard an interview with one of the designers of BtW where he named AW as an influence.
The other game the company produces is PbtA. Beyond the Wall pretty much follows the AW design ethos for setting up a campaign and adventures, only it puts everything into an OSR engine. It's a great way for new players to get up and running, and give them a way to play short campaigns.
However, the setup is more giving them a fish, then teaching them to fish. With everything pre-packaged and set into tables, it's easy to get up and running, but those packages are gonna run out. I think after you got B/X say and ran B2 and X1, you were much more prepared to pick up from there than if you got Beyond the Wall and Further Afield.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969665I was not using Justin Alexander's definition.
Actually though, as your own post shows, you were using that definition. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?37103-Is-there-anything-that-trad-RPGs-can-use-from-specific-storygames&p=969617&viewfull=1#post969617)
You specifically quoted Justin's definition...
Quote from: Justin Alexander;969541Roleplaying Game = Game in which the mechanical decisions being made are directly associated to decisions being made by the player's character (i.e., the act of playing the game is literally playing the role).
Storytelling Game = Game in which the mechanics determine which player has the narrative control necessary to determine the outcome or details of the game world.
The argument can be made that these are related forms of games, but there's clear value in the distinction for the same reason that there's value in drawing a distinction between Poker and Twilight Imperium. Yes, they're both games (and The Terminator and The Mirror are both films), but claiming that there's no useful distinction between the two is just willful obfuscation.
and then said:
Quote from: Christopher Brady;969617So by this definition, Beyond The Wall and Other Adventures is a 'Storygame' because it has Fortune Points, and all the players, including GM, get together and build the world, namely the village, that the characters come from.
Huhn.
Here's a screenshot for you, if you don't remember...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/dkxlaw0mgog14y8/Capture2.PNG?dl=0)
Not being familiar with Beyond the Wall, I couldn't really judge if it's a storygame or not.
I won't judge BtW before I played it.
My current favorite char gen is the LotFP B/X variant, where you do 3d6 in order, keep if modifier sum isn't negative and possibly switch two. That way you are guaranteed playable characters. I like to combine this with the Dark Albion social status roll or something similar for other settings.
I'd like to contribute a method of my own (AFAIK): the Yin-Yang method of ability generation.
Take the usual ability order (SIWDCC) and roll for one ability, then subtract the result from 21 for the second ability; repeat three times.
So, by default, the strong character will be "archetypal" (or "cliche'd" if you dislike the idea); the dumb brute versus the weak wizard or scholar; Fighter versus Magic-user; Wisdom x Dexterity: careful consideration and patience versus quick action; Cleric versus Thief; Constitution x Charisma: the rugged, stoic type versus the sweet-talking singer or swindler. Dwarf versus Elf, or Ranger versus Bard.
I allow swapping two or three scores.
Here are some examples or rolls:
- Strength 15, Intelligence 6, Wisdom 12, Dexterity 9, Constitution 11, and Charisma 10. Your typical Fighter: strong, a bit slow, but with enough courage and common sense. Maybe a soldier or tough knight.
- Strength 11, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Dexterity 7, Constitution 14, and Charisma 7. An average Cleric, hardy and strong-willed.
BTW, reading the AD&D PHB, there are some additional reasons to believe this is a deliberate pattern: a low Strength character can only be a Magic-User, while a low Intelligence character can only be a Fighter; a low Dexterity character can only be a Cleric, and for low Wisdom, a thief. On the other hand, special classes such as the Assassin, Illusionist and Monk break the mold.
http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2016/07/old-school-d-and-yin-yang-method-of.html