TheRPGSite

What it says on the label. You love some game, but it has flaws. Be brave enough to list them.

I'll start:

Torg. Great game, deep flaws.

The system is supposed to be a fast-paced cinematic action-movie game, but its core mechanic, that dominates and underlies all the other mechanics, is... a logarithmic chart, figured out to 100 entries. (Not + 1 = x10, but +5 = x10.)

Yes, the central core of the "Die Hard" RPG is ever larger numbers.

1 = 1
5 = 10
10 =100
15 = 1000
30 = 1 million
100 = 100 quintillion

This is why engineers, physicists, and mathematicians flocked to a gonzo cinematic game about cyberpriests with real miracles, spell-slinging dragons, and ninja-werewolves invading the real world. (That, and everything in the game is measured in SI units.)

Play centered around minutia of physics, not action movies. FAIL.

Where is the FAIL for your favorite game?

(EDIT: This thread's for Bedrock Brendan, by way of apology. He says it wasn't necessary, but I wanted to anyway.)

Microlite74's minimalism is beautiful, but it also puts a lot on the DM's shoulders. There's simply no time for flavor either.

GURPS as a system works great and it is straightforward. But as it is presented as toolkit sometimes it just takes way to much time to create stuff.

My bullshit storygame Other Worlds is quite dependant on the group's mood. Moreso than other games are because there is less structure to fall back on. If the alchemy of the night is good, Other Worlds works really well. The more freeform nature of it sort of harnesses that energy and makes it easier for people to express it. But if people are tired or otherwise uninspired, it can be a bit harder to get things flowing because you can't just default to 'make a stealth check, let's roll for wandering monsters, make a perception check', etc

Quote from: estar;626804GURPS as a system works great and it is straightforward. But as it is presented as toolkit sometimes it just takes way to much time to create stuff.

I've often got the impression that SJgames thinks giving too much guidance would make the game not generic.

Which is a shame. I know lots of folks who would like GURPS more if it was more playable, more baked, out of the gate.

Pendragon forces you to take actions with your character if have a high Personality trait. You cannot help to be Prideful or Lazy. While not a problem inherit with the game, it can become a problem with players who do not want control removed from the player's hands.

The game is incredibly deadly. A single critical hit will usually kill a character. You are often forced into combat against your will because of your 60-day guaranteed military service to the king.

The child death rate is borked. While I understand a majority of children died before coming of age the medieval era, but it's really a lot of bookkeeping to keep track of which children dies from an illness each year. The game can also instantly kill your wife because your roll was good. A simple house rule of allowing a CON check to check the death of the wife works, with a lose of 1d6 CON even if she passes.

You often have very little control over your own wealth. Fate, circumstance and luck play a huge roll in receiving libra every year. A higher Stewardship rating helps, but a bad season of weather can wipe out your livelihood.

Too many boring people play it.

Quote from: Piestrio;626809I've often got the impression that SJgames thinks giving too much guidance would make the game not generic.

Which is a shame. I know lots of folks who would like GURPS more if it was more playable, more baked, out of the gate.

Over the years, I advocated over on the SJ Games forums that they should do a powered by GURPS rpg for fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. That they shouldn't be a funky setting or over the top concept but be evocative of the leading systems of each genre (I would pick D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu).

But when it happens it runs 2 against for every 1 person who likes it. They give excuses like, we don't have the manpower. Which is halfway true due to the dominance of Munchkin sales.

Our freelancers are not interested, which is also technically true but when you look at their writing guidelines and templates you have to wonder how much that is a barrier. Discouraging interested people from writing for them. My own personal experience is that for other companies I don't have to jump through the hoops that they make their writers do.

It was also stated that GURPS is meant to compete with other generic RPGs by remaining as a toolkit. Also that tabletop RPGs are down. My own opinion is that GURPS lost ground faster than it otherwise would have due to the lack of ready to run products.

What really makes this issue sore for me is that due to my running a boffer LARP chapter, participating in the organization of conventions, and running game store events; I come into contact with a lot of gamers in Western PA. When I run GURPS everybody see how useful and and has a lot of fun with the system is but then big complaint I get that it it takes too much work to get going with it. Especially compared to the options of games like D20, Fate, and Savage Worlds.

I get annoyed when I pass this along to the SJ Games folks and they ignore what I have to say. I find it hard to believe they never heard of this. I don't have hard data beyond Western PA, but I travel for my company and visited enough game stores in other parts of the country. From talking to store owners and gamers, I think this is nationwide issue for GURPS.

Hero Games saw the light recently when they released their standalone Champions game. Chaosium has always kept the standalone versions of their Basic Roleplaying Game going.

My own game: Crime Network. It is supposed to be lethal (so you are always on edge about getting whacked) and we adjusted the lethality of the damage mechanics so it doesn't offer up the possibility of a one hit kill enough. I love playing the game but the lethality hasn't felt right. Basically should have modified the core mechanics a bit to bring it up (but was too worried about comparability issues).

Quote from: estar;626817Over the years, I advocated over on the SJ Games forums that they should do a powered by GURPS rpg for fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. That they shouldn't be a funky setting or over the top concept but be evocative of the leading systems of each genre (I would pick D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu).

But when it happens it runs 2 against for every 1 person who likes it. They give excuses like, we don't have the manpower. Which is halfway true due to the dominance of Munchkin sales.

Our freelancers are not interested, which is also technically true but when you look at their writing guidelines and templates you have to wonder how much that is a barrier. Discouraging interested people from writing for them. My own personal experience is that for other companies I don't have to jump through the hoops that they make their writers do.

It was also stated that GURPS is meant to compete with other generic RPGs by remaining as a toolkit. Also that tabletop RPGs are down. My own opinion is that GURPS lost ground faster than it otherwise would have due to the lack of ready to run products.

What really makes this issue sore for me is that due to my running a boffer LARP chapter, participating in the organization of conventions, and running game store events; I come into contact with a lot of gamers in Western PA. When I run GURPS everybody see how useful and and has a lot of fun with the system is but then big complaint I get that it it takes too much work to get going with it. Especially compared to the options of games like D20, Fate, and Savage Worlds.

I get annoyed when I pass this along to the SJ Games folks and they ignore what I have to say. I find it hard to believe they never heard of this. I don't have hard data beyond Western PA, but I travel for my company and visited enough game stores in other parts of the country. From talking to store owners and gamers, I think this is nationwide issue for GURPS.

Hero Games saw the light recently when they released their standalone Champions game. Chaosium has always kept the standalone versions of their Basic Roleplaying Game going.

That mirrors my experiences very closely.

The reason people don't like GURPS is exceeding clear. Too much work.

The GURPS fanbase and SJgames seem to simply not believe that this is the case.

One thing I've harped on a lot is taking Dungeon Fantasy and retooling it into a standalone game, GURPS Dungeon fantasy. 90% of the material is there it just needs to be collected and massaged.

This suggestion tends to send the forums into hysterics.

They seem to think the answer to getting more people into the game is more rules and products, which is coincidentally exactly what the most hardcore fans want :rolleyes:

GURPS is kind of a microcosm of the hobby as a whole and the dangers of catering to your most obsessive fans.

Let's see...

Palladium game lines are a blast to read, fun concepts, wedded to a game system that feels like pulling teeth. Palladium works as a "rules-lite/rules-medium" system, but as it's gotten older, it's getting bogged down trying to go "rules-heavy".

D&D becomes a game of "pretty princess dress-up" as you get to high levels; your personal capabilities become eclipsed by the gear that you're wearing. WoW did not start this trend.

WEG Star Wars, handles one-on-one combat well, multiple opponents, not so well. The "20 Kobold Rule" works even better in WEG's system, than D&D.

Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition

Great for customization, sheer variety of options both official and third party, and has a bountiful supply of interesting fluff and crunch.

But it's flawed, oh so very flawed.

1. Most unbalanced version of D&D out there, full progression spellcasters invalidate too many classes and prestige class options.  Many of the limitations of AD&D spellcasting were removed or minimized, leading spellcasters to dominate the game at mid-high levels.

2. Trap options which look good, but are actually not so hot, punish new players more than they reward system mastery.  These were intentionally designed into the game.  Problem is, the designers are not so forthcoming on which options are traps and defend these choices as "role-playing."

3. Superfluous and redundant options.  Too many undead creatures which fill the same niche, too many classes and prestige classes which overlap in both fluff and crunch.  For example, the eldritch knight and spellsword are both hybrid arcane spellcasters and fighters.

4. Challenge Rating system is not a good guideline for determining threats.  Especially with the early Monster Manuals (MM 2, Fiend Folio, etc).  Even the game designers just "winged it" instead of relying upon the mechanic eventually.

The Skill Purchase subsystem in Age of Heroes is too complex and thus is best handled on a spreadsheet. It's a good thing that's easily done.

I'd change it, but I found no other way to meet the designs goals.

Quote from: Piestrio;626821GURPS is kind of a microcosm of the hobby as a whole and the dangers of catering to your most obsessive fans.

If I wasn't acutely aware of how much work it is to properly create and promote your own RPG. I would try to make some type of standalone fantasy RPG that has what I like most about GURPS but recast into its own game.

Perhaps when I get through all the other things I want publish about hexcrawls, sandbox, and the Majestic Wilderlands.

Quote from: Libertad;626827Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition

Great for customization, sheer variety of options both official and third party, and has a bountiful supply of interesting fluff and crunch.

But it's flawed, oh so very flawed.

1. Most unbalanced version of D&D out there, full progression spellcasters invalidate too many classes and prestige class options.  Many of the limitations of AD&D spellcasting were removed or minimized, leading spellcasters to dominate the game at mid-high levels.

2. Trap options which look good, but are actually not so hot, punish new players more than they reward system mastery.  These were intentionally designed into the game.  Problem is, the designers are not so forthcoming on which options are traps and defend these choices as "role-playing."

3. Superfluous and redundant options.  Too many undead creatures which fill the same niche, too many classes and prestige classes which overlap in both fluff and crunch.  For example, the eldritch knight and spellsword are both hybrid arcane spellcasters and fighters.

4. Challenge Rating system is not a good guideline for determining threats.  Especially with the early Monster Manuals (MM 2, Fiend Folio, etc).  Even the game designers just "winged it" instead of relying upon the mechanic eventually.

I think the only problem with D&D 3.X is that it got away from saying "here are the options. Use your common sense as to what works for your game and reflects your setting."

The idea of Challenge Ratings is always a mirage anyway. Similar to the issue of trying to use points in GURPS to measure combat effectiveness. The number of different situation a versatile system like D20 could handle is so diverse that it is near useless.

It would have been better to just to write up some design notes on each monster and note the broad range of level i.e. low, mid, high

This'll be a work in progress, so let's start with the low hanging fruit first.

In Nomine:

Horrific core book editing. Pain in the ass to find anything as a new player, typos, cross-chapter embedded info, etc.

A LOT of Do-It-Yourself creation for mundane world objects. Extra weapons, skills, human corporeal-familiarity advantages, etc.

Waaay too many Check Digit tables in early books. A great idea best left to GM discretion, not defined mechanics.

Dissonance calculation is overly complex and in the end provides little usable GM info. There should've been a gradated setting ratio for increased encounter probability. Also the math ends up with areas so small as to be negligible.

Requires intense GM oversight for character creation. Not only should powers not be mixed and matched without discretion during char-gen, but not all PCs or NPCs can play together without contrivance.

Further, campaign long parties that can never separate longer than going to the bathroom need not apply. Your D&D dungeon crawl, WW coterie pack, etc. play style fits either as a short term fling, a joke, or a terribly strained collection of contrivances. Does not play well with gestalt style play.

Ethereals were squeezed in by Borgstrom design in a way like sardines go with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Crazy, beautiful, almost incoherent; magically translated by a co-author so strongly grounded in mechanics and setting that it just. might. work.

Kyriotates might actually be unplayable for the vast majority of tables. Scratch that. They are unplayable for the vast majority of GMs and players. Too much head explodey built-in for most people. ("I'm gonna roleplay a sparrow across town, the shower figment of a dreaming woman dreaming of her morning shower, and the elevator in a downtown highrise -- all at the same time!")

Quote from: Novastar;626823Let's see...

Palladium game lines are a blast to read, fun concepts, wedded to a game system that feels like pulling teeth. Palladium works as a "rules-lite/rules-medium" system, but as it's gotten older, it's getting bogged down trying to go "rules-heavy".

Beat me to it. What the Palladium house system needs isn't so much a new edition or a revision, as clarification and pruning. Disparate rulings can be seen in different games, and even in different books in the same game line. The core of the system is rock solid, almost OSR-ish in its closeness to TSR-era D&D.

Also, tables. Palladium badly needs tables for skill levels and hand-to-hand combat modifiers. You know, like they had back in 1e PFRPG and stopped doing for no good reason at all.

Most versions of D&D seem to be built around a small level range where casters and warriors can both provide relevant assistance in a fight, before which casters are glorified flashlights and after which warriors are only useful when enemies have magic resistance.
That this never starts at first level is, to put it gently, an Issue.

Exalted.  Oh, boy.  Most entire interplay mechanics are flawed at the base, and need be cut off at the root : Mass Combat is incomprehensible, Social Combat allows casual mind control or requires you to kill anyone that talks to you, and Craft is simultaneously boring and tedious.  Grappling is simple, and also prone to the most overpowered and unfixable builds in the game.  The basic combat system itself can work in some situations, but the line and especially its print-book components show serious signs of uncoordinated rush, including at least one author that was told to write mechanics without having access to the core book.  Spells and Charms are supposed to be a very technically specific thing, and authors ended up giving dozens of conflicting definitions to terms like "Mortal" or "Attack".  Charm quality varies so dramatically that it took two-hundred pages of errata to get things into a remotely workable order.  The modern team has gotten a lot better-organized, so I'm holding out hope for E3, however.

And there's the fluff, which is supposed to be (and usually manages to be) the strength of the game.  When it works, you have a fascinating setting like Malfeas or Yu-Shan or even Luthe or Halta, or character types that have a nuclear-powered hammer and a lot of problems that look like screws.

  When it doesn't, you have Ma-Ha-Suchi, who, along with his 30,000-strong beastman army, is supposed to represent a specific and monstrous threat to the Scavenger Lands, and will get spanked if his troops get in unlead combat with most any of the places he's threatening.  Or if a lone Raksha, or anyone that can Wyld Stunt, attacks his Wyld-assimilated troops in the Wyld Zone they're standing in and dependent on for food.  And he's spent 700 years to do this, when he could have just screwed a herd of goats as a hobby and spent the rest of his time doing something more effective than raping random peasants and cannon fodder soldiers.  But rape and cannibalism are like salt, so they add flavour to the story.  Right?  Nevermind that you need substance to the soup, first.

Quote from: Crabbyapples;626810Pendragon...The child death rate is borked. While I understand a majority of children died before coming of age the medieval era, but it's really a lot of bookkeeping to keep track of which children dies from an illness each year.

The latest word from Greg Stafford (either online or in the Book of the Entourage, I forget which) is that you should only roll for child mortality up through age 5. That would definitely ease things a bit.

(That's actually one of my pet peeves, though--Stafford's constantly tinkering with the rules, which is great, but it's a bit like having a GM who's always introducing new house rules into their game.)

My main beef with Pendragon (maybe not my favorite, but definitely solid Top Three) is that its dice-rolling mechanics are so wonky. Sometimes a natural 20 is a disaster, sometimes it's a critical hit. Or, say you get a bonus to your skill; you then roll a number equal to your original skill before the bonus. This would've been a critical if you hadn't gotten the bonus! Or how a bonus to skill translates to a bonus to your dice roll if it takes the skill over 20. My players have the hardest time wrapping their heads around this. "Wait, sometimes a bonus modifies my skill and sometimes it modifies my dice roll?"

I love the system in all its wonky glory, but it can be a bitch to teach to new players.

Cortex+ & Don't Rest Your Head: Too many dice.

Apocalypse World: Not enough 'gamist' elements.

AD&D/D&D.  It's too difficult to represent a lower magic S&S style on a per-character basis.

That's really my only main complaint.  It can be worked around with extreme effort, but anything else usually takes just minor tweaking to accomplish what you want.  It really is the toolbox of games -- that's why I love it so much.   Mage:the Ascension on a lite tone as a D&D casting system would be...obnoxiously fun if it could be relatively balanced.

Continuum and Narcissist

For being amazing games about time travel, rendered unplayable by book-keeping.

Also Narcissist was never published, crying shame.

Fantasy Craft: The magic system is still a little too generic and the magic supplement I hope will fix this (Spellbound) is too long in coming.

Leagues of Adventure/HEX: Compared to bennies/fate/action points of other systems, style point are a bit too weak requiring the GM to spend even more time remembering to award them.

Pathfinder: Is like its big brother in good and bad ways. The main bad way being character wealth by level is too much of a player entitlement and the resulting magic item economy makes some game setups untenable.

D&D 3.x: See pathfinder

FATE/Spirit of the Century/Bulldogs/Diaspora: Too many people don't "get" aspects.

Traveller: Doesn't use a 3D universe.

D&D 3.5E
- Emphasis on miniatures
- Abstruse rules for combat maneuvers (the unfamous "grapple") etc.
- No "Disadvantages" (negative feats, even if UA patched it a bit with the Flaws system)
- Cool fluff not supported by sound mechanics (look at The Complete Divine for a sad example)
- Idiotic and meaningless "spend XPs for...!" rules. I PLAY SINCE I WAS 14 AND I NEVER USED XPS, WIZARDS!

My players don't give a flying fuck about balance, so I was never bothered by it ^^

TSR-era D&D/AD&D

Why, oh why can they not develop a good multi-class system?  The closest they ever came was making the Fighter/Magic-user hybrid a whole race of its own (Elf).  Even then, the Elf only worked in the B/X era, being underpowered in the Rules Cyclopedia and simply surreal in the older versions.  

Think very carefully about the rates of magic item placement that the game seems to suggest.  It works fine with a lot less and tends to avoid odd problems in doing so.  In particular, when a player adorned with magic items dies, the rest of the party has a windfall.  Helped somewhat by inheritance rules present in some versions of the game.  

Ability score generation.  Could you just pick a method and stick with it?  I am happy with 3d6 in order.  If that is too harsh, there are a number of small tweaks.  Do we really need a dozen methods, with little evidence of what makes sense?

Marvel SAGA is fantastic.

Except for the handful of busted powers, horrible character creation system and awful, completely out of step with the genre, advancement system.

Still the most fun I've ever had with a superhero RPG.

Hero System:
Much of what's been described with GURPS, except I always found HERO easier.  The corebook(s) cannot actually stop a bullet, but they can at least slow a 9mm.  I only started to become disenchanted once 6th Edition came out, and at least as many rules and stats were added in as were taken out to "simplify" things.  The deciding vote was cast by my gaming group, which has been playing since Champions 4th Edition came out, when they saw my gigantic copy of Volume 1 and my slightly-less-gigantic volume 2 and said, "screw this."

As estar says, hopefully making Champions Complete as a standalone book will resolve some of that issue.

JG

Anima: Beyond Fantasy has absolutely atrocious organization and more than a few pieces of entirely inappropriately sexxed up artwork.

Rolemaster has similarly atrocious organization, compounded by the fact that 2e never fully convinced itself it was an actual game instead of being a disparate set of supplements for use with AD&D. Also, while I appreciate being given options, dumping 15 mutually exclusive optional ways to handle a situation that weren't even slightly playtested may or may not be better than presenting only like 4 of them that were... but it's a complete bitch to try to select what you're actually using for the campaign.

Tenra Bansho Zero spends too much being up in your face about the SUPER RAD HARDCORE OPTIONS LIKE BEING A HUMAN SOUL ENCASED IN AN INVINCIBLE SHELL OF IRON WITH DRILL ARMS, OR SOMEONE WHO HOSTS A COLONY OF BUGS INSIDE THEIR BODY YOU CAN PUNCH PEOPLE WITH that it makes it hard for folks to realize that those aren't the only options and it is in fact perfectly possible to play an entirely "normal" human being and have it roughly balanced.

Dragon Warriors was... no, I can't actually think of anything really wrong with it :p

Mekton Zeta has some pretty bad cases of maths breaking down, and would have benefitted from a simplified creation system. Something like Tactical Display damage system but for EVERYTHING. Also, one stat for all combats everywhere ever was a little bit lame.

Rolemaster.

Tied for my favorite game with a few others....but....

Too cumbersome a system for my taste in my old age.

Love the skill system, maneuver system, critical hits, spell system.

But the addition...it burns!

GURPS.  Each version of it grew another core book.  First, Man to Man was a single book.  Then renamed to GURPS with more stuff added.  By 3rd edition (revised), two compendium books were needed on top of the core book.  4th edition is now two heavy core books (what's with the heavy paper guys?!  My Chthonian Stars book is just as thick and is very light to hold without wrist sprain).

Even though I like how strength, fatigue, hit-points, and health work now in 4th edition, I've since learned that I don't like hit-points.  GURPS is a great set of rules if you are designing a computer simulation game like Fallout 3 or Skyrim.  But I don't want to play GURPS manually with paper and dice.

Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

Mutants & Masterminds

Greatest superhero RPG I know of which can emulate all sorts of guys, from Superman to the Punisher.

Flaws:

Defense/Toughness trade-off is easily abusable by buying up Impervious Toughness or Impenetrable Force Fields.  Who cares if you can't dodge attacks if you can absorb them all?

Skills all cost the same, but some of them are super-useful/vital to any superhero (Notice, Sense Motive), others highly situation (Profession).  Additionally, certain super-powers can invalidate skills, and produce greater effects at a lower cost of Power Points.

Game doesn't handle well at all under low Power Levels (below 6), but this is a minor gripe and a relative non-issue, considering that 6 is around the most "down-to-Earth" superheroes.  For comparison a SWAT officer is PL 5, a gang member PL 3, and a bystander PL 0.

Quote from: Reckall;627331Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

It uses Constitution for stat rolls when you are blinded.



I am a huge fan of Call of Cthulu, and Elric. Love the system.

Quote from: Libertad;626827Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition

Great for customization, sheer variety of options both official and third party, and has a bountiful supply of interesting fluff and crunch.

But it's flawed, oh so very flawed.

...

Yes, to all of the above, and if I may...

5. Throngs of asshats that are loyal to it, and particularly to the most munchkin aspects, just waiting to dogpile in with the badwrongfun, making it almost impossible to discuss in public.  E.g. mention 'toughness' as a feat choice.

Quote from: Reckall;627331Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

From my PoV, I found it unapproachable.  I liked the theme, the power level, and the concept of monsters that had combat stats that didn't matter (you weren't supposed to fight them).

But without buying and reading a few dozen novels/source books, some red candles, and smearing on the black eyeliner, I wasn't sure how to 'get started' and accurately capture the setting.

Vis-a-vis Vampire, et al.

Quote from: Reckall;627331Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

There are some clunky mechanics in CoC that haven't aged that well, when you compare them with some of the options that have emerged in other BRP-style games. A few tweaks would be nice - from what has basically remained unchanged in ~30 years.

Quote from: Reckall;627331Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

I absolutely love this game, but to call it flawless...? For one, I don't think there's any mention of opposed skill rolls. You're either not supposed to use them, or handle them applying "common sense" and house rules.
I wouldn't call this sucking, though.

I like MHRP, but milestones and unlockables are time consuming to get right and at the moment I'm considering ripping them out and coming up with an alternate xp system or just leaving it out entirely and going with a session based thing like the Leverage game.

Amber Diceless RPG upsets player's immersion sensibilities.

Because there is no big-number-heavy character sheet to hide behind; "It's not me, it's the character!" when you're doing back-stabbery and mischief, can be harder to justify.

You need a very mature group not to take Amber too personally.

//Panjumanju

Lets see.

Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP): No support for differing power levels, it could use a pass to clean up the superpowers, limitations are somewhat more absurdly limiting than most comic book superhero limits on powers. It is also sadly OOP, and was printed as a softcover set of books rather than sturdy hardcovers. (Imagine an AD&D1E early print hardcover of this game..seriously.)

Talislanta 4e: Common complaint is no character construction system, just archtypes, but that is fine by me. My complaint is that it needs a quickstart primer for the players since the world is FULL of so much. That's about it really.

I won't do my own games, even though they surpass these, because as a designer I know far too many of their flaws.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;627369I absolutely love this game, but to call it flawless...? For one, I don't think there's any mention of opposed skill rolls. You're either not supposed to use them, or handle them applying "common sense" and house rules.
I wouldn't call this sucking, though.

Wait, what?

My trusty old copy of 5.5e has the BRP opposed roll resolution table (the good old Resistance Table) at page 50.

Basic Fantasy Roleplaying (BFRPG) sticks a bit too close to its roots. It adds in good stuff like ascending AC, but keeps things like crappy thief skill percentages because that's how it used to be done. I don't mind percentages, but when your average skill is 20%, what's the point?

They also won't add more than the regular D&D races (human, elf, dwarf, and halfling). I'd love to see a few more included.

A few more armor types would also be nice.

Star Wars SAGA Edition

Great game, non-Jedi and Jedi characters can be in the same group without much friction (unless you introduce a bunch of splats), ascending defense and offense by level means that you'll need to do minimal rules tinkering to make characters level-appropriate.

Flaws:

Skill Focus (Use the Force) is overpowered at early levels, so is the Force Lightning Power.  Certain talents are very useful (Deflect for Jedi, Fool's Luck for Scoundrels), others very weak and/or situational.  Same for skills (I can't recall ever using Endurance, yet Initiative and Perception are vital).

Game designers haven't extensively play-tested high-level combat, and I've heard that there's some bugs and unexpected stuff up which can slow down the game.

Unless your PC's starship has a lot of gunnery positions and/or miniature fighter pilots, it's possible that PCs may sit out the cool starship battles.

Quote from: Reckall;627331Speaking of flawless games, I can't seem to find a flaw in Call of Cthulhu.

Even my group that loves CoC finds the advancement mechanism problematic.

Quote from: The Butcher;627403Wait, what?

My trusty old copy of 5.5e has the BRP opposed roll resolution table (the good old Resistance Table) at page 50.

Er, if you are talking about the resistance table I know of, that handles opposed ATTRIBUTES instead of opposed skills.

Elfquest had a method of getting opposed skill checks out of BRP, but it didn't work all that great IIRC.

Fringeworthy, FTL2448, Bureau 13

Fun settings, invocative material, easy to play.  

What?  Easy to play?  Have you seen those rules?  It looks like a puppy shreded the manuscript and the just shoveled it all together.  There is very little organization in the rules.  Note true.  There is a great organiztion, IF YOU ALREADY KNOW THE RULES.  

And really, the skill system and a bulk of the game runs on ONE CHART of skill difficulties.  Rather than being pointed out or heralded as important, it is always burried between the character creation and some other unrelated subsection.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;627421Er, if you are talking about the resistance table I know of, that handles opposed ATTRIBUTES instead of opposed skills.

Shit, you're right. :o

Quote from: Silverlion;627400Lets see.

Marvel Superheroes (FASERIP): No support for differing power levels, it could use a pass to clean up the superpowers, limitations are somewhat more absurdly limiting than most comic book superhero limits on powers. It is also sadly OOP, and was printed as a softcover set of books rather than sturdy hardcovers. (Imagine an AD&D1E early print hardcover of this game..seriously.)

Talislanta 4e: Common complaint is no character construction system, just archtypes, but that is fine by me. My complaint is that it needs a quickstart primer for the players since the world is FULL of so much. That's about it really.

I won't do my own games, even though they surpass these, because as a designer I know far too many of their flaws.

For what it's worth, there's the Four Color RPG system - http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/50837/Four-Color-System-(Core-Rules) - which is a generic version of the old Marvel system

Quote from: The Butcher;627431Shit, you're right. :o

Still a simple solution to opposed skills - blackjack. Highest level of success (Critical > Special > Success > Failure > Critical Failure) and if there is a tie highest roll wins.

Mostly how favorites are perceived than anything else.  Examples.  I dislike that the Third Imperium is considered Traveller by many.  I dislike that if one likes AD&D 1 some will default to thinking that you are a Gygax super-fan-booster-fanatic. barf  I dislike endless game fanaticism of all sorts tied to so many games.

Quote from: Kuroth;627437Mostly how favorites are perceived than anything else.  Examples.  I dislike that the Third Imperium is considered Traveller by many.  I dislike that if one likes AD&D 1 some will default to thinking that you are a Gygax super-fan-booster-fanatic. barf  I dislike endless game fanaticism of all sorts tied to so many games.

In other words, fans are what make RPGs suck.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;627438In other words, fans are what make RPGs suck.

Sometimes

Quote from: Kuroth;627437I dislike endless game fanaticism of all sorts tied to so many games.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;627438In other words, fans are what make RPGs suck.

Quote from: Kuroth;627439Sometimes

Well, kinda the point of this thread was to get people talking about games they love, in a way that differs from "my game rules, everyone else's sucks."

On that level, I think it's been a success. Here's my second contribution:

Shadowrun, 1st edition. Broken Matrix rules (both sets.) Poorly organized.

And staging. I love SR1 staging, I miss SR 1 staging, but it did have some oddities (hello 6L1 supa-killer pistols) and was way too complicated.

I really enjoy Traveller, but dislike how the Third Imperium became integrated into the game.  I really enjoy AD&D 1, but I dislike the confusion that AD&D 1 creates for itself by combining a toolbox approach with an attempt to offer a unified system.  Better?

Savage Worlds

Lives right up to it tagline of FAST! FURIOUS! FUN! until you are tracking Power Points and bullets in combat.

And so help me God, if I see zombies or Atlantis again...

Quote from: Infornific;627435Still a simple solution to opposed skills - blackjack. Highest level of success (Critical > Special > Success > Failure > Critical Failure) and if there is a tie highest roll wins.

True but it hasn't been mentioned in any of the editions of CoC.

Also, the resistance table is only useful in the case of no more than two opposing Characteristics and it also makes the assumption that it's clear which opponent is the passive or defending one.

Regarding CoC, I thing that this thread should distinguish between "flaws" and "suckage". I don't remember a single game at CoC where the rules let us stumped. Some things can be done better? Sure, but I wonder to what price for the overall playability.

CoC is *the* game where I always thing about the game and almost never about some knotty rules.

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;627369I absolutely love this game, but to call it flawless...? For one, I don't think there's any mention of opposed skill rolls. You're either not supposed to use them, or handle them applying "common sense" and house rules.
I wouldn't call this sucking, though.

There's playing chess with Death, and then there's playing chess with Azathoth.

JG

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;627450And so help me God, if I see zombies or Atlantis again...

In any GAME, ANY GAME!

Quote from: mcbobbo;627363From my PoV, I found it unapproachable.  I liked the theme, the power level, and the concept of monsters that had combat stats that didn't matter (you weren't supposed to fight them).

But without buying and reading a few dozen novels/source books, some red candles, and smearing on the black eyeliner, I wasn't sure how to 'get started' and accurately capture the setting.

Vis-a-vis Vampire, et al.

Ditch the candles and eyeliner, and read the books of short stories by HP Lovecraft. A few of them are truly excellent.

Oh, and don't run it like Vampire :)

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;627369I absolutely love this game, but to call it flawless...? For one, I don't think there's any mention of opposed skill rolls. You're either not supposed to use them, or handle them applying "common sense" and house rules.
I wouldn't call this sucking, though.

It may not be literally flawless, but it works as a game system.

Quote from: Infornific;627435Still a simple solution to opposed skills - blackjack. Highest level of success (Critical > Special > Success > Failure > Critical Failure) and if there is a tie highest roll wins.

Yeah, that's how Legend and RQ6 do it.

Another idea for a more old school BRP feel: divide both skills by 5 and allow attacker to roll on the Resistance Table.

Quote from: Reckall;627490Regarding CoC, I thing that this thread should distinguish between "flaws" and "suckage". I don't remember a single game at CoC where the rules let us stumped. Some things can be done better? Sure, but I wonder to what price for the overall playability.

CoC is *the* game where I always thing about the game and almost never about some knotty rules.

I fully agree, but you called it flawless, which it isn't.

Quote from: The Butcher;627512Yeah, that's how Legend and RQ6 do it.

Another idea for a more old school BRP feel: divide both skills by 5 and allow attacker to roll on the Resistance Table.

Opposed skills do not only happen in combat. In some cases any number of (N)PCs may be competing using certain skills and the Resistance Table is no help then. You need to come up with some system for comparing die roll results. Blackjack method works for this, though it's still not completely satisfactory in the case where in a Sneak vs. Listen both rolls fail.

Anyway, like I said I do not think Call of Cthulhu sucks as its few flaws never really cause any major problems. I was merely stating that it's not flawless.

Quote from: Reckall;627490Regarding CoC, I thing that this thread should distinguish between "flaws" and "suckage". I don't remember a single game at CoC where the rules let us stumped. Some things can be done better? Sure, but I wonder to what price for the overall playability.

CoC is *the* game where I always thing about the game and almost never about some knotty rules.

I'm almost certain the "sucks" is meant as hyperbole. I gathered the thread was for talking about our favorite games in ways other than "this game is perfect" manner.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;627652I'm almost certain the "sucks" is meant as hyperbole. I gathered the thread was for talking about our favorite games in ways other than "this game is perfect" manner.

Yup.

L5R feels like a reskinned Vampire with an orientalist facade thanks to its pool of d10s, emphasis on clans who don't like each other, setting-specific morality meters, and convoluted metaplot to the point that I'm often sure it started out as John Wick literally reskinning a game of VtM.

D&D 4th is my favorite version of D&D and I hate that its existence makes me some sort of partisan by association in the internet's weird-ass war against that fact.  I also miss the non-combat spells.

And seriously, what the fuck are you supposed to do with Unknown Armies, anyway?

Quote from: This Guy;627671And seriously, what the fuck are you supposed to do with Unknown Armies, anyway?

Unknown Armies is Fiasco plus magic for non-storygamers.

Eclipse Phase

Original setting, interesting implications of transhuman technology which isn't just utopian "rapture of the nerds," can support many kinds of plots and campaigns (from cyberpunk hacking, to planetary explorers, to secret agents).

Flaws:

Character creation's a nightmare, rules are unclear about skill costs when you jump into new morphs, Build Point cost for morphs is uneven to their equivalent cost in credits.  Too many skills, and they're not cheap to buy.

Draws a little too much upon contemporary politics, making some factions one-dimensional or ridiculous.  Jovian Republic'ss too one-dimensional, dumb, and lacking redeeming qualities despite being a PC option.  On another note, the Titanian Commonwealth's too utopian for the grim setting.  Authors are too optimistic that religion will fall by the wayside due to technological innovation.

I know, it appears that I have a lot of "favorite games," but there's several RPGs I hold in high regard, and nobody seems to be complaining.

Twilight:2000's [strike]vehicle[/strike]entire combat system is a mess.  The authors' grasp on anything in the world beyond "You're trapped behind enemy lines in a post-nuke europe - go!" is abysmal.  And it shows up hard in later books.

AD&D is a Byzantine mess.  Charts are easy but ... holy God, I've been told four different ways by four different people how surprise, initiative and charging is supposed to work.  All are different.  Dan whoever's "ADDICT" is a joke, so don't even.  There's a story that when Hendrix' first album was sent to master, the copies of the tapes were sent back and his signature sound was removed by the record pressing factory.  So they had to send them again labeled DISTORTION DELIBERATE - DO NOT REMOVE.  That's Gary's work in AD&D.  You can't cut out that groove without destroying AD&D.  That doesn't help its accessibility.  

Hero System has fucked-up Math from Beyond the Stars.  "That's a half advantage"  "Oh so it's cost is 45 instead of 30." "Nope, it's cost is 40."  WHAT.

Heavy Gear - rules are awesome, story is for SHIT!  Well, no, maybe the story is good too.  But that story is IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND BECAUSE DP9 SPREAD IT OUT ACROSS A BILLION SOURCEBOOKS, NONE OF WHICH ARE SHAPED LIKE THE OTHER.  Seriously, those children's-book sized fiction booklets?  Then stuff buried in rule books?  My God, someone slap them around a bit.  Battletech for the awfulness of its rules at least kept everything in one place.  Or at the very least had the decency to use non-eye-destroying typefaces, and use a4 sized books.

These are the RPGs I love the most.

Amber is just too damn good.

RPGPundit

Amber doesn't have any fucking dice.