What it says on the label. You love some game, but it has flaws. Be brave enough to list them.

I'll start:

Torg. Great game, deep flaws.

The system is supposed to be a fast-paced cinematic action-movie game, but its core mechanic, that dominates and underlies all the other mechanics, is... a logarithmic chart, figured out to 100 entries. (Not + 1 = x10, but +5 = x10.)

Yes, the central core of the "Die Hard" RPG is ever larger numbers.

1 = 1
5 = 10
10 =100
15 = 1000
30 = 1 million
100 = 100 quintillion

This is why engineers, physicists, and mathematicians flocked to a gonzo cinematic game about cyberpriests with real miracles, spell-slinging dragons, and ninja-werewolves invading the real world. (That, and everything in the game is measured in SI units.)

Play centered around minutia of physics, not action movies. FAIL.

Where is the FAIL for your favorite game?

(EDIT: This thread's for Bedrock Brendan, by way of apology. He says it wasn't necessary, but I wanted to anyway.)

Microlite74's minimalism is beautiful, but it also puts a lot on the DM's shoulders. There's simply no time for flavor either.

GURPS as a system works great and it is straightforward. But as it is presented as toolkit sometimes it just takes way to much time to create stuff.

My bullshit storygame Other Worlds is quite dependant on the group's mood. Moreso than other games are because there is less structure to fall back on. If the alchemy of the night is good, Other Worlds works really well. The more freeform nature of it sort of harnesses that energy and makes it easier for people to express it. But if people are tired or otherwise uninspired, it can be a bit harder to get things flowing because you can't just default to 'make a stealth check, let's roll for wandering monsters, make a perception check', etc

Quote from: estar;626804GURPS as a system works great and it is straightforward. But as it is presented as toolkit sometimes it just takes way to much time to create stuff.

I've often got the impression that SJgames thinks giving too much guidance would make the game not generic.

Which is a shame. I know lots of folks who would like GURPS more if it was more playable, more baked, out of the gate.

Pendragon forces you to take actions with your character if have a high Personality trait. You cannot help to be Prideful or Lazy. While not a problem inherit with the game, it can become a problem with players who do not want control removed from the player's hands.

The game is incredibly deadly. A single critical hit will usually kill a character. You are often forced into combat against your will because of your 60-day guaranteed military service to the king.

The child death rate is borked. While I understand a majority of children died before coming of age the medieval era, but it's really a lot of bookkeeping to keep track of which children dies from an illness each year. The game can also instantly kill your wife because your roll was good. A simple house rule of allowing a CON check to check the death of the wife works, with a lose of 1d6 CON even if she passes.

You often have very little control over your own wealth. Fate, circumstance and luck play a huge roll in receiving libra every year. A higher Stewardship rating helps, but a bad season of weather can wipe out your livelihood.

Too many boring people play it.

Quote from: Piestrio;626809I've often got the impression that SJgames thinks giving too much guidance would make the game not generic.

Which is a shame. I know lots of folks who would like GURPS more if it was more playable, more baked, out of the gate.

Over the years, I advocated over on the SJ Games forums that they should do a powered by GURPS rpg for fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. That they shouldn't be a funky setting or over the top concept but be evocative of the leading systems of each genre (I would pick D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu).

But when it happens it runs 2 against for every 1 person who likes it. They give excuses like, we don't have the manpower. Which is halfway true due to the dominance of Munchkin sales.

Our freelancers are not interested, which is also technically true but when you look at their writing guidelines and templates you have to wonder how much that is a barrier. Discouraging interested people from writing for them. My own personal experience is that for other companies I don't have to jump through the hoops that they make their writers do.

It was also stated that GURPS is meant to compete with other generic RPGs by remaining as a toolkit. Also that tabletop RPGs are down. My own opinion is that GURPS lost ground faster than it otherwise would have due to the lack of ready to run products.

What really makes this issue sore for me is that due to my running a boffer LARP chapter, participating in the organization of conventions, and running game store events; I come into contact with a lot of gamers in Western PA. When I run GURPS everybody see how useful and and has a lot of fun with the system is but then big complaint I get that it it takes too much work to get going with it. Especially compared to the options of games like D20, Fate, and Savage Worlds.

I get annoyed when I pass this along to the SJ Games folks and they ignore what I have to say. I find it hard to believe they never heard of this. I don't have hard data beyond Western PA, but I travel for my company and visited enough game stores in other parts of the country. From talking to store owners and gamers, I think this is nationwide issue for GURPS.

Hero Games saw the light recently when they released their standalone Champions game. Chaosium has always kept the standalone versions of their Basic Roleplaying Game going.

My own game: Crime Network. It is supposed to be lethal (so you are always on edge about getting whacked) and we adjusted the lethality of the damage mechanics so it doesn't offer up the possibility of a one hit kill enough. I love playing the game but the lethality hasn't felt right. Basically should have modified the core mechanics a bit to bring it up (but was too worried about comparability issues).

Quote from: estar;626817Over the years, I advocated over on the SJ Games forums that they should do a powered by GURPS rpg for fantasy, sci-fi, and horror. That they shouldn't be a funky setting or over the top concept but be evocative of the leading systems of each genre (I would pick D&D, Traveller, and Call of Cthulu).

But when it happens it runs 2 against for every 1 person who likes it. They give excuses like, we don't have the manpower. Which is halfway true due to the dominance of Munchkin sales.

Our freelancers are not interested, which is also technically true but when you look at their writing guidelines and templates you have to wonder how much that is a barrier. Discouraging interested people from writing for them. My own personal experience is that for other companies I don't have to jump through the hoops that they make their writers do.

It was also stated that GURPS is meant to compete with other generic RPGs by remaining as a toolkit. Also that tabletop RPGs are down. My own opinion is that GURPS lost ground faster than it otherwise would have due to the lack of ready to run products.

What really makes this issue sore for me is that due to my running a boffer LARP chapter, participating in the organization of conventions, and running game store events; I come into contact with a lot of gamers in Western PA. When I run GURPS everybody see how useful and and has a lot of fun with the system is but then big complaint I get that it it takes too much work to get going with it. Especially compared to the options of games like D20, Fate, and Savage Worlds.

I get annoyed when I pass this along to the SJ Games folks and they ignore what I have to say. I find it hard to believe they never heard of this. I don't have hard data beyond Western PA, but I travel for my company and visited enough game stores in other parts of the country. From talking to store owners and gamers, I think this is nationwide issue for GURPS.

Hero Games saw the light recently when they released their standalone Champions game. Chaosium has always kept the standalone versions of their Basic Roleplaying Game going.

That mirrors my experiences very closely.

The reason people don't like GURPS is exceeding clear. Too much work.

The GURPS fanbase and SJgames seem to simply not believe that this is the case.

One thing I've harped on a lot is taking Dungeon Fantasy and retooling it into a standalone game, GURPS Dungeon fantasy. 90% of the material is there it just needs to be collected and massaged.

This suggestion tends to send the forums into hysterics.

They seem to think the answer to getting more people into the game is more rules and products, which is coincidentally exactly what the most hardcore fans want :rolleyes:

GURPS is kind of a microcosm of the hobby as a whole and the dangers of catering to your most obsessive fans.

Let's see...

Palladium game lines are a blast to read, fun concepts, wedded to a game system that feels like pulling teeth. Palladium works as a "rules-lite/rules-medium" system, but as it's gotten older, it's getting bogged down trying to go "rules-heavy".

D&D becomes a game of "pretty princess dress-up" as you get to high levels; your personal capabilities become eclipsed by the gear that you're wearing. WoW did not start this trend.

WEG Star Wars, handles one-on-one combat well, multiple opponents, not so well. The "20 Kobold Rule" works even better in WEG's system, than D&D.

Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition

Great for customization, sheer variety of options both official and third party, and has a bountiful supply of interesting fluff and crunch.

But it's flawed, oh so very flawed.

1. Most unbalanced version of D&D out there, full progression spellcasters invalidate too many classes and prestige class options.  Many of the limitations of AD&D spellcasting were removed or minimized, leading spellcasters to dominate the game at mid-high levels.

2. Trap options which look good, but are actually not so hot, punish new players more than they reward system mastery.  These were intentionally designed into the game.  Problem is, the designers are not so forthcoming on which options are traps and defend these choices as "role-playing."

3. Superfluous and redundant options.  Too many undead creatures which fill the same niche, too many classes and prestige classes which overlap in both fluff and crunch.  For example, the eldritch knight and spellsword are both hybrid arcane spellcasters and fighters.

4. Challenge Rating system is not a good guideline for determining threats.  Especially with the early Monster Manuals (MM 2, Fiend Folio, etc).  Even the game designers just "winged it" instead of relying upon the mechanic eventually.

The Skill Purchase subsystem in Age of Heroes is too complex and thus is best handled on a spreadsheet. It's a good thing that's easily done.

I'd change it, but I found no other way to meet the designs goals.

Quote from: Piestrio;626821GURPS is kind of a microcosm of the hobby as a whole and the dangers of catering to your most obsessive fans.

If I wasn't acutely aware of how much work it is to properly create and promote your own RPG. I would try to make some type of standalone fantasy RPG that has what I like most about GURPS but recast into its own game.

Perhaps when I get through all the other things I want publish about hexcrawls, sandbox, and the Majestic Wilderlands.

Quote from: Libertad;626827Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition

Great for customization, sheer variety of options both official and third party, and has a bountiful supply of interesting fluff and crunch.

But it's flawed, oh so very flawed.

1. Most unbalanced version of D&D out there, full progression spellcasters invalidate too many classes and prestige class options.  Many of the limitations of AD&D spellcasting were removed or minimized, leading spellcasters to dominate the game at mid-high levels.

2. Trap options which look good, but are actually not so hot, punish new players more than they reward system mastery.  These were intentionally designed into the game.  Problem is, the designers are not so forthcoming on which options are traps and defend these choices as "role-playing."

3. Superfluous and redundant options.  Too many undead creatures which fill the same niche, too many classes and prestige classes which overlap in both fluff and crunch.  For example, the eldritch knight and spellsword are both hybrid arcane spellcasters and fighters.

4. Challenge Rating system is not a good guideline for determining threats.  Especially with the early Monster Manuals (MM 2, Fiend Folio, etc).  Even the game designers just "winged it" instead of relying upon the mechanic eventually.

I think the only problem with D&D 3.X is that it got away from saying "here are the options. Use your common sense as to what works for your game and reflects your setting."

The idea of Challenge Ratings is always a mirage anyway. Similar to the issue of trying to use points in GURPS to measure combat effectiveness. The number of different situation a versatile system like D20 could handle is so diverse that it is near useless.

It would have been better to just to write up some design notes on each monster and note the broad range of level i.e. low, mid, high